U.S. Women [#3]: Skating Clean

[coppertop1]

Agreed. Isabeau has such a sensitivity to the music and really has such great phrasing which I’ve never seen from an Eteri skater. But yeah, her jumps are a big problem

see her having problems with her back in the future if she doesn’t get that technique fixed.

And that would be a shame. I really hope the USFSA doesn't do what they did to Alysa and hype her up and pressure her to the point where she doesn't enjoy it anymore. Please, USFSA, don't do that.

Lindsey has a lot more power to her skating and jumps in comparison to Isabeau for sure. I do like how Isabeau appears to be connecting with the judges though.

Isabeau has the musicality and expression judges like. Lindsey has the athleticism.

 

[Wyliefan]

Lindsay doesn't have the artistry yet, but she has signs of potential. The Queen's Gambit program was an interesting choice for her, and the packaging for that one was good. The glass shattering and so forth was a little on-the-nose, but it shows her team can think outside the box and go non-warhorse. She does need to work on her expression and presentation to live up to it, but they're heading in a good direction with her so far.

 

[coppertop1]

Lindsay doesn't have the artistry yet, but she has signs of potential. The Queen's Gambit program was an interesting choice for her, and the packaging for that one was good. The glass shattering and so forth was a little on-the-nose, but it shows her team can think outside the box and go non-warhorse. She does need to work on her expression and presentation to live up to it, but they're heading in a good direction with her so far.

It's funny because as soon as I heard the dialog in her free skate, I insistently thought "This must be a Benoit Richaud program".

 

[Trillian]

Lindsay doesn't have the artistry yet, but she has signs of potential. The Queen's Gambit program was an interesting choice for her, and the packaging for that one was good.

I agree. I was on the fence about Lindsay’s potential because I felt she was very lacking in those areas even as recently as nationals - but she really has made huge improvements. I really became a fan during junior worlds and I’m excited to see what she does next season. IMO she’s had some pretty visible nerves in the past, so I hope this medal gives her a confidence boost.

 

[Karen-W]

I think Lindsay's SP as delivered at Jr Worlds was her most expressive skate yet. The growth in her performance quality even from just Nationals was really astounding.

There are some aspects of Isabeau's skating and choreography that are reminiscent of the Eteri/Danny G brand... I think there was one Charlotte spiral transition she did into a jump which wasn't held for more than the time it took to get into position that felt like it was lifted right out of Danny G's playbook, and there were some moments that felt a little too "tada", but I also have seen her skate that program better earlier in the season, so I chalked it up to nerves on Sunday. I did like both programs, though they were maybe too similar in style, and I hope she explores other musical genres in coming years because I do think she has it in her to, as someone upthread said, give us some sass and spunk with a genuine smile.

I found it interesting that Isabeau was quoted at the press conference saying it was a bit of a mystery whether she would move up to seniors internationally next season. I wonder if that's because her team & the USFS isn't sure what will happen with the age min proposal or if there is a legitimate discussion about having her compete on the JGP again in the fall.

 

[Trillian]

I found it interesting that Isabeau was quoted at the press conference saying it was a bit of a mystery whether she would move up to seniors internationally next season. I wonder if that's because her team & the USFS isn't sure what will happen with the age min proposal or if there is a legitimate discussion about having her compete on the JGP again in the fall.

Interesting! I feel like that almost has to be a reference to the potential rule changes, because I can’t remember an age-eligible women’s junior world champ ever choosing to stay back when the senior GP was an option. I would imagine USFS would encourage her to move up because they have to be itching to put her in more televised events. I love to imagine anyone saying, “You know what, even though we could put her on the GP, it’s better for her long-term development if she spends another year on the JGP.” But that… sounds like a fairy tale.

 

[coppertop1]

Interesting! I feel like that almost has to be a reference to the potential rule changes, because I can’t remember an age-eligible women’s junior world champ ever choosing to stay back when the senior GP was an option. I would imagine USFS would encourage her to move up because they have to be itching to put her in more televised events. I love to imagine anyone saying, “You know what, even though we could put her on the GP, it’s better for her long-term development if she spends another year on the JGP.” But that… sounds like a fairy tale.

The USFSA allowing their prodigy to develop instead of hyping her and pushing her to the senior ranks? Yeah, that's not going to happen

 

[Maximillian]

I would be shocked if Isabeau's career doesn't wind up being very similar to Jenny Kirk's. She reminded me so much of Kirk circa 2000 at Nationals, both in her presentation and her prodigious jumping ability. That Isabeau has now won Junior Worlds just affirms my thoughts.

I have stayed out of the Alysa Liu retirement thread because...well...I don't hate myself. But blaming the 'USFSA' and its 'hype' for her retirement is ludicrous. As I've stated before the sole purpose of the USFSA is to organize and promote figure skating. That's it. To ask them not to promote an up and coming skater or a successful skater is completely contrary to their reason for existing. Their promotion of skaters, modest as it is--and it is modest, trust--has never been the reason for any skater's burnout, retirement, what have you. The blame for such things invariably falls with the coach, parent, the skater themselves, and (maybe) the media, usually a combination of all three. The USFSA assigning a skater to events, inviting them to a once a year 'Champs Camp' to offer guidance and moniter progress and asking a skater to do promotional interviews for events once or twice a year is not causing any skater's demise.

 

[Trillian]

I would be shocked if Isabeau's career doesn't wind up being very similar to Jenny Kirk's. She reminded me so much of Kirk circa 2000 at Nationals, both in her presentation and her prodigious jumping ability. That Isabeau has now won Junior Worlds just affirms my thoughts.

I agree with you on the jumps - I thought of Jenny too - but her overall packaging reminds me a lot more of Sasha in that era. For fans who are old enough to remember the class of 2000, I bet there’s a significant overlap in fan bases between Isabeau and Sasha.

But the sport has changed, the world has changed, the coaches in the picture are very different, back injuries are the new hip injuries, etc. I wouldn’t predict Isabeau necessarily has the same trajectory ahead of her. I just know jump issues like that tend to be harder and harder to address the older the skater gets, so it would be nice if USFS would let her deal with that before they start piling on the expectations.

 

[Wyliefan]

Always supposing that she and her team have been told they need to address them. I hope they have.

 

[Bouffantrex]

Levito is fabulous, but the flip and lutz technique is appalling. How she managed to escape underrotation calls on both triple-triples in the long program is beyond me. Nice politicking from USFS (for a change) to get her the win.

A year ago, I thought Thorngren's ceiling was a second-rate Bradie Tennell, but I am very impressed with the significant improvements she has made in all aspects of her skating since 2021 Nationals. I look forward to seeing her continue this upward trajectory on the senior level next season.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I agree with you on the jumps - I thought of Jenny too - but her overall packaging reminds me a lot more of Sasha in that era. For fans who are old enough to remember the class of 2000, I bet there’s a significant overlap in fan bases between Isabeau and Sasha.

I don’t think that’s by accident, someone in Isabeau’s camp was inspired by Cohen: https://youtu.be/lcH6vkDnpJc

 

[gkelly]

I can’t remember an age-eligible women’s junior world champ ever choosing to stay back when the senior GP was an option.

I have a long memory. Some Russian examples, not necessarily by their own choice:

Elena Ivanova - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Daria Timoshenko - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mtnskater]

I would be shocked if Isabeau's career doesn't wind up being very similar to Jenny Kirk's. She reminded me so much of Kirk circa 2000 at Nationals, both in her presentation and her prodigious jumping ability. That Isabeau has now won Junior Worlds just affirms my thoughts.

Although I thought Jenny’s career was not derailed by her jump technique but by the premature and unexpected death of her mother who was instrumental in her career. Jenny has said that she lost her way and her motivation after that.

 

[Trillian]

I have a long memory. Some Russian examples, not necessarily by their own choice:

Elena Ivanova - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Daria Timoshenko - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I remember those two. At the time I think Russia tended to often send defending champs back to junior worlds, while the U.S. almost never did.

Although I thought Jenny’s career was not derailed by her jump technique but by the premature and unexpected death of her mother who was instrumental in her career. Jenny has said that she lost her way and her motivation after that.

Her jump technique might have limited her up to a point, but she still did pretty well with it. She was a good competitor who tended to come through under pressure when she was young, which helped a lot. I’m inclined to believe the loss of her mom changed everything for her.

 

[layman]

Jenny did have what I call "junior" technique that worked for her on that level (while she remained tiny) but then Jenny grew but the technique staid the same. She was never as consistent as a senior as she was as a junior.

We see this often with women's (girl's) skating.

Caroline Zhang won everything on the junior level but her junior technique could not sustain her as a senior. Julia Lipnitskaya had one successful senior season using her junior technique before she grew (succumbed to eating disorders) and the technique failed her. Evgenia Medvedeva had two successful seasons as a senior using her junior technique before the technique began to fail her and she struggled. Zagitova had a season and a half of success on the senior level before she grew and her junior technique failed her...I can go on and on and on.

Some skaters have successfully managed to re-vamp their technique.

Caroline Zhang fixed her 3-flip, made her 2-axel (previously her weakest jump) into her strongest jump, added the 3-loop/3-loop combo as a senior (a combo that she did not have as a junior) and skated with way more speed as a senior than she did as a junior. She improved consistently as a senior year after year but unfortunately the rest of the field did too, so Caroline was not able to replicate her junior success on the senior level. She tried really hard though (over many seasons).

The most recent example of a skater re-vamping her technique is Alysa Liu. She started growing a lot after the 2019 season and her junior technique promptly failed her. She then sought technical help (where ever she could find it), eventually re-vamped her coaching team (by working with Massimo Scali and Jeremy Abbott) and her new coaches taught her to approach her jumps with speed (rather than crawl slowly into them as she did as a junior) and to use her legs more to gain spring in the jumps. After one season under the new coaches, Alysa's jumps looked 100% better.

Re-vamping technique takes time. It is not easy. It may take a season or two in which the athlete struggles but it can be done and is worth the effort.

 

[Deleted member 221]

I'm not so sure Alysa Liu's jump technique was fixed, as much as it was marginally improved. And I wonder if part of her retirement is a realization that it isn't going to last and/or will take a significant effort to maintain.

Liu was still quite slow in and out of some of her jumps, especially the triple axel, at Worlds. If she tried any triple axels in warmup at Worlds, I completely missed them because she was skating so slowly into her jumps. Even in the program, I had no idea she was attempting a triple by the takeoff. Like many others, she also is relying on edge pulls between jumps in triple-triple combinations and the hopped v. jumped eulers in order to get the combinations around. Her underrotation issues seemed to be getting worse, not better, until a sudden (but not complete) reversal at Olympics and Worlds. I'm not sure if that's technique improvement or just training. I tend to think it's the latter. This is taking nothing away from Liu, who skated her absolute best when it counted. But I do think her technique and her overall speed/ice coverage would have continued to be issues.

As I posted in another thread, Levito has cleaned up some of her technique - her toe loop is looking excellent and drawing in big GOE. Her double axel has been very nice for awhile. These jumps are big and floaty, unlike the likes of Jenny Kirk or Tara Lipinski, who always whipped their jumps. I'm cautiously optimistic.

For both Levito and Thorngren, I think (J)GP results next season are irrelevant. What's relevant is whether they can work triple axels and/or quads into their program content. This is the point in the cycle to take risks.

 

[layman]

I'm not so sure Alysa Liu's jump technique was fixed, as much as it was marginally improved. And I wonder if part of her retirement is a realization that it isn't going to last and/or will take a significant effort to maintain.

Liu was still quite slow in and out of some of her jumps, especially the triple axel, at Worlds. If she tried any triple axels in warmup at Worlds, I completely missed them because she was skating so slowly into her jumps. Even in the program, I had no idea she was attempting a triple by the takeoff. Like many others, she also is relying on edge pulls between jumps in triple-triple combinations and the hopped v. jumped eulers in order to get the combinations around. Her underrotation issues seemed to be getting worse, not better, until a sudden (but not complete) reversal at Olympics and Worlds. I'm not sure if that's technique improvement or just training. I tend to think it's the latter. This is taking nothing away from Liu, who skated her absolute best when it counted. But I do think her technique and her overall speed/ice coverage would have continued to be issues.

As I posted in another thread, Levito has cleaned up some of her technique - her toe loop is looking excellent and drawing in big GOE. Her double axel has been very nice for awhile. These jumps are big and floaty, unlike the likes of Jenny Kirk or Tara Lipinski, who always whipped their jumps. I'm cautiously optimistic.

For both Levito and Thorngren, I think (J)GP results next season are irrelevant. What's relevant is whether they can work triple axels and/or quads into their program content. This is the point in the cycle to take risks.

Sometimes under pressure or due to fatigue, we see the skaters revert back to the old technique. Alysa definitely had ups and downs last season. She burst onto the season showing much more speed in her jump entries and exits than she ever had before...but she did so many senior B's before the Grand Prix that she showed up at her 2nd Grand Prix (Cup of Japan) looking visibly tired. It was a long exhausting season. In a way, it benefited her to withdraw from Nationals because she went home, rested and trained and showed up at the Olympics and World Championships looking rested and fresh and the speed returned.

 

[Sylvia]

I posted this article yesterday in the "Alysa Liu retires" thread - USFS' Fan Zone article by Rachel Lutz (April 19):

Alysa Liu ‘Graduates’ From Skating into Retirement after World Championships Bronze - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

Two U.S. titles. A bronze medal at the World Championships and World Junior Championships. A seventh-place finish at the Olympics. Successful triple Axels and quadruple

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

Excerpt:

"I plan to get my driver's license – I still need to do that," she said, as if to emphasize to anyone who has forgotten just how young she still is despite spending several deserved seasons in the spotlight.
Liu has also begun her college application process and plans to attend in the fall of 2023. (She finished high school in June 2021 at age 15.) She said the application process is going well, but there's no need to rush any decisions at this point.
"I play the piano, so I'm going to get more into it," she said when asked about other pursuits. "Because of skating, I couldn't play as much, so I'm going to pick it up again."
Liu also plans to spend more time with her friends and family. Some friends, she said, she saw for what is likely the last time at the World Championships. Many of them knew of her decision to retire in advance, but otherwise Liu kept the news to herself.

 

[olympic]

I agree with you on the jumps - I thought of Jenny too - but her overall packaging reminds me a lot more of Sasha in that era. For fans who are old enough to remember the class of 2000, I bet there’s a significant overlap in fan bases between Isabeau and Sasha.

But the sport has changed, the world has changed, the coaches in the picture are very different, back injuries are the new hip injuries, etc. I wouldn’t predict Isabeau necessarily has the same trajectory ahead of her. I just know jump issues like that tend to be harder and harder to address the older the skater gets, so it would be nice if USFS would let her deal with that before they start piling on the expectations.

I agree on Isabeau = Sasha. I would even say that Isabeau has better blade control and knows how to gut out the landing of a jump better than Sasha did, which does mean a lot.

I wouldn't agree on Isabeau = Jenny. Isabeau has a lot more athletic talent. The jumps are muscled but she gets them done including some difficult 3-3s (for now). I don't recall that Jenny had a lot of athletic prowess

 

[Coco]

Has anyone heard from Brandie about her plans for next year?

 

[Trillian]

I wouldn't agree on Isabeau = Jenny. Isabeau has a lot more athletic talent. The jumps are muscled but she gets them done including some difficult 3-3s (for now). I don't recall that Jenny had a lot of athletic prowess

Jenny was attempting every triple besides the axel by the time she was at the junior level, which was pretty advanced for that era. I want to say she was trying more difficult combinations than most of her peers as well. It was always very much a quantity vs. quality issue, of course, but I’d say that’s also true for Isabeau right now. She needs more sustainable jump technique if she wants to still be competitive a few years from now, because she’s not going to a able to just keep muscling them out and avoiding UR calls forever.

 

[Maximillian]

Jenny was attempting every triple besides the axel by the time she was at the junior level, which was pretty advanced for that era. I want to say she was trying more difficult combinations than most of her peers as well. It was always very much a quantity vs. quality issue, of course, but I’d say that’s also true for Isabeau right now. She needs more sustainable jump technique if she wants to still be competitive a few years from now, because she’s not going to a able to just keep muscling them out and avoiding UR calls forever.

IIRC, Jenny was also aiming for the quad sal at one point around the time she won Jr. Worlds, or at least that's what her online monikers at the time suggested.

 

[Coco]

It's hard to know what might have happened for her physically without the eating disorder

 

[Marco]

I don't recall that Jenny had a lot of athletic prowess

She was landing 7 triples at Junior Worlds including a 3toe3toe and for much of her first senior season (2000 Lalique comes to mind). Then her mum died, she grew and lost quite a bit of consistency. Like Yulia Lipnitskaya, she simply didn't have sustainable technique. She did work hard and her jumps got a bit bigger though when she went to Frank and she delivered a few solid skates in her latter years. Not the consistency people would want from a US #3 but for herself, I think she did quite well with a Jr World title and a 4CCs title, and a couple of US Nationals medals and Sr World trips.

 

[olympic]

She was landing 7 triples at Junior Worlds including a 3toe3toe and for much of her first senior season (2000 Lalique comes to mind). Then her mum died, she grew and lost quite a bit of consistency. Like Yulia Lipnitskaya, she simply didn't have sustainable technique. She did work hard and her jumps got a bit bigger though when she went to Frank and she delivered a few solid skates in her latter years. Not the consistency people would want from a US #3 but for herself, I think she did quite well with a Jr World title and a 4CCs title, and a couple of US Nationals medals and Sr World trips.

I still don't see the initial posters comparisons of Kirk = Levito. I guess for me it's not quantifiable, then

 

[Maximillian]

I still don't see the initial posters comparisons of Kirk = Levito. I guess for me it's not quantifiable, then

As the initial poster I will say this, Kirk and Levito both had a significant repetoire of triple jumps which they both landed consistently in their debut season at the senior level with dubious technique that was sure to abandon them when they grew. This was in contrast to much of the senior field's in which they skated at the national level. Both Kirk and Levito's choreography presented as maybe a little bit above where they are/were in terms of carriage and dance ability, as if their choreography was for a skater with more dance training. The choreograhy worked but read as a little 'strained' to my eye, i.e. trying a bit too hard. This is in contrast to Cohen who did have the carriage, etal. to pull off a more mature style, though not necessarily the expression (which is why when young, Sasha always seemed prodigious in her mastery of choreography, but not connected to it, much like Lipnitiskaya). If you don't see it, that's cool.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Wow - amazing how people viewing the same skaters can take away very different impressions. I only know Kirk from some YouTube posts - maybe in style closest to Trenary. Levito in style like Lypnipskaya to me - balletic, though schooled ballet (I guess all ballet is schooled).

None of these skaters can hold a candle to queen Sasha. She always knew how something looked - she could see herself. Every position (in which she was standing) was stunning. Despite her size she projected like no one else. I have always felt she was technically inconsistent because she was trying to do something artistically no one else was capable of. She was courageous. I think the officals in Turin (I was there for the short) knew they were seeing something unique and kept her in 2nd in 2006.

 

[soogar]

None of these skaters can hold a candle to queen Sasha. She always knew how something looked - she could see herself. Every position (in which she was standing) was stunning. Despite her size she projected like no one else. I have always felt she was technically inconsistent because she was trying to do something artistically no one else was capable of. She was courageous. I think the officals in Turin (I was there for the short) knew they were seeing something unique and kept her in 2nd in 2006.

Sasha was a real Queen out there. No one had her amplitude on those Russian split jumps. Her actual jumps werent that great, but everything else was spectacular. Beautiful carriage, positions on all of her spins. and the split jumps.

 

[Trillian]

I generally don’t think it’s fair expect a teenager in any creative field to do anything “artistically” groundbreaking. They’re young, they’re often very sheltered, they haven’t had time to really figure out what they want to express and how they want to express it. The best thing they can do at that age is be well-packaged, learn strong technical skills, and have good mentorship on the creative side that will allow them to make the best use of whatever more distinctive voice they find for themselves as they get older.

She’s not my all-time favorite, but Sasha built a very strong foundation during those developmental years. Jenny didn’t have the technical foundation. Isabeau has packaging more on par with what Sasha had in her mid-teens, but it’s easy to imagine her technique won’t support her as she gets older, and I think think that’s where the Jenny comparisons are coming from.