U.S. Women [#3]: Skating Clean

[honey]

I see a more apt comparison for Isabeau being Caroline Zhang. Doing 7 triple free skates on the regular, with sketchy technique and lovely artistry. Isabeau’s basic skating and expression is much farther ahead than Caroline’s was at this age, but there is the same lack of speed and ice coverage that will be a problem as she matures if it doesn’t improve with her.
And the jump technique is working now in that she is landing the jumps, but it’s not good technique and will be a problem going forward if it is not addressed.

Caroline fixed her technique to a certain degree on the flip and loop later on, but it took her years to do that and many of the old technical issues remained (the bad flutz, the standstill double axel, the unders). Also, she only addressed those after many years of subpar performances and pretty much falling off the map. I hope for Isabeau that there is a priority on getting her technique to a place where it can sustain her for the future, but based on how this story has gone before, it seems unlikely that real effort is going to be put in now to fix the jumps.

 

[Marco]

Here's some unpopular opinion for sure, but for me - Isabeau = Sarah.

Comparing her to the early 2000s ballerinas, Isabeau has better flow and ease and spins than Jenny (always looked laboured to me), and more focus / fight / cat feet than Sasha. Her abandon, her basics, her long legs and amplitude (along with her egregious toe jump and UR issues, the poor jump form and a slight gangliness) probably most closely resemble Sarah. Hey before you roll your eyes remember Sarah was OMG in the Michelle era!

And if you need further convicing, watch their flying camel entrances.

 

[layman]

Here's some unpopular opinion for sure, but for me - Isabeau = Sarah.

Comparing her to the early 2000s ballerinas, Isabeau has better flow and ease and spins than Jenny (always looked laboured to me), and more focus / fight / cat feet than Sasha. Her abandon, her basics, her long legs and amplitude (along with her egregious toe jump and UR issues, the poor jump form and a slight gangliness) probably most closely resemble Sarah. Hey before you roll your eyes remember Sarah was OMG in the Michelle era!

And if you need further convicing, watch their flying camel entrances.

I don't know...I think this (comparison) may be stretching it.

I used to joke that from the ankle up Sasha was the best skater in the World (perfect posture, beautiful positions, line and extension but weak edges), but from the ankle down...it was Sarah (strong edges, flow and speed).

I loved the way that Sarah skated way down low in her knees. It gave her skating a soft, floating quality (Clare Seo has this). Sarah's speed and flow and glide were very strong...she always seemed very connected to the ice...everything came from her edge, then flowed through the ankle to the lean of her body...it reminded me of the technique of many Japanese skaters (Yuka Sato being a prime example). Sarah always seemed strongly connected to the ice...it always seemed that it was impossible for her to fall (which I don't recall ever seeing her do) because her edge connection, edge security and flow was so strong.

I just don't see that same kind of speed and flow and skating ability (yet) from Isabeau. Isabeau's skating reminds me much more of Sasha's...wonderful from the ankle up but the speed and flow and ice coverage need improvement.

 

[olympic]

As the initial poster I will say this, Kirk and Levito both had a significant repetoire of triple jumps which they both landed consistently in their debut season at the senior level with dubious technique that was sure to abandon them when they grew. This was in contrast to much of the senior field's in which they skated at the national level. Both Kirk and Levito's choreography presented as maybe a little bit above where they are/were in terms of carriage and dance ability, as if their choreography was for a skater with more dance training. The choreograhy worked but read as a little 'strained' to my eye, i.e. trying a bit too hard. This is in contrast to Cohen who did have the carriage, etal. to pull off a more mature style, though not necessarily the expression (which is why when young, Sasha always seemed prodigious in her mastery of choreography, but not connected to it, much like Lipnitiskaya). If you don't see it, that's cool.

If you get into the minutiae of it, though, I see differences in jumps between Kirk and Levito. Levito is just more dynamic, gets more 'pop' if you will on the jumps, even if she has to muscle it. Kirk's technique exhibited no power and I just can't get that horrible flutz out of my head. Yes. She attempted the range of triples but I didn't see any element that was inspiring. OTOH, flaws and all, I see some inspiration in the way Levito hits her elements. Maybe that is a better explanation of what I was trying to convey

 

[Maximillian]

If you get into the minutiae of it, though, I see differences in jumps between Kirk and Levito. Levito is just more dynamic, gets more 'pop' if you will on the jumps, even if she has to muscle it. Kirk's technique exhibited no power and I just can't get that horrible flutz out of my head. Yes. She attempted the range of triples but I didn't see any element that was inspiring. OTOH, flaws and all, I see some inspiration in the way Levito hits her elements. Maybe that is a better explanation of what I was trying to convey

No, I totally get what you're saying, my comparison was more superficial.

 

[skateboy]

None of these skaters can hold a candle to queen Sasha. She always knew how something looked - she could see herself. Every position (in which she was standing) was stunning. Despite her size she projected like no one else.

I think the officals in Turin (I was there for the short) knew they were seeing something unique and kept her in 2nd in 2006.

This. I remember watching some competition (maybe a Worlds) with my sister (not a skating aficionado by any stretch), and Sasha came on. My sister called out to her husband "Hey come here, you've got to see this... this girl is just STUNNING!"

She was right.

 

[flyingsit]

I never got the Sasha love; her skating left me cold, I think because (1) her blade-to-ice skills were seriously lacking and (2) she seemed very disconnected from the music — her interpretation was so superficial.

 

[mtnskater]

Sasha is my all time favorite female skater. Some value the blade edge and the knee bend above all. Some value the jump technique above all. Some, like me, want beautiful line, position and performance…painting beautiful pictures on the ice, above all. And I’ve got my eye on Isabeau

 

[honey]

Slightly off topic, but one of the things I found interesting about Sasha is that actually had real jumping chops. She had huge spring in her jumps; especially early on. By 2006 the jumps were smaller, but in her younger days she would fly in her jumps. Real natural athletic quality. She didn’t have good technique necessarily, but she raw talent was clear. I don’t think the same jumping ability was there with many of the other baby ballerinas of her generation.

 

[olympic]

^During her comeback post-2006, wasn't Sasha supposed to train w/ Raf? I thought that was mentioned around the time of 2010 Nationals. But apparently, it didn't work out or something?

 

[Wyliefan]

I think she did for a bit, then went back to John Nicks. She tried out a lot of different coaches but always went back to Mr. Nicks.

 

[soogar]

^During her comeback post-2006, wasn't Sasha supposed to train w/ Raf? I thought that was mentioned around the time of 2010 Nationals. But apparently, it didn't work out or something?

I thought Raf had an affair with her mother. I think that’s why she didn’t return to him. Sasha had worked with Raf prior to her comeback over the years.

Edited to add that this bit of gossip was discussed here when the news broke that Sasha’s parents were getting divorced. I believe that was during the time that she left Robin (Sarah’s former coach) to return to John Nicks.

 

[Rukia]

Since it's the off-season and we're talking about Sasha, I will never forget the story one of my old coaches told me about her. My coach's (now ex) was hired to work with Sasha on a harness. He was flown across the country for like 1 day only to be to told by Sasha that she doesn't jump on Mondays. Idk why but that makes me laugh and laugh.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

^During her comeback post-2006, wasn't Sasha supposed to train w/ Raf? I thought that was mentioned around the time of 2010 Nationals. But apparently, it didn't work out or something?

She approached him about coaching her for her 2010 comeback, but she wouldn’t agree to his minimum required training time commitment. She felt it wasn’t feasible given her injury issues/bodily age, and he didn’t think it was otherwise worth his time if she didn’t put in a certain amount of rink time effort.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Here's some unpopular opinion for sure, but for me - Isabeau = Sarah.

Comparing her to the early 2000s ballerinas, Isabeau has better flow and ease and spins than Jenny (always looked laboured to me), and more focus / fight / cat feet than Sasha. Her abandon, her basics, her long legs and amplitude (along with her egregious toe jump and UR issues, the poor jump form and a slight gangliness) probably most closely resemble Sarah. HeSay before you roll your eyes remember Sarah was OMG in the Michelle era!

And if you need further convicing, watch their flying camel entrances.

Oh gross! IMO they couldn't be more dissimilar. I think Sarah's skating is heavy. Michelle,Sasha and Isabeau are light and airy. They are IMO remarkable.

 

[Marco]

I don't know...I think this (comparison) may be stretching it.

I just don't see that same kind of speed and flow and skating ability (yet) from Isabeau. Isabeau's skating reminds me much more of Sasha's...wonderful from the ankle up but the speed and flow and ice coverage need improvement.

On the skating skills spectrum, I feel Isabeau is definitely closer to Sarah than Sasha. My impression is that her skating is relatively big, like Sarah's; whereas Sasha's skating is always small. Feel free to disagree though. I haven't seen any of them skate live in person.

And I don't necessarily feel Isabeau is wonderful from the ankle up. She pumps a bit, sometimes she doesn't know what to do with her arms, she lacks that final bit of finesse, and her jumping form is horrible. Just like Sarah. For me, Sasha really was wonderful from the ankle up.

In terms of expressiveness I find Isabeau's skating almost organic, like Sarah. Her (their) emotions radiate from within. Sasha's interpretation is often much more artificial.

 

[mtnskater]

I’m just so hungry for skaters who can exhibit superior artistry, body line, aesthetic spin positions, etc. in singles and for the judging system to give it more weight. I’m beyond sick of how most singles performances are dissected and discussed endlessly as to whether triple jumps were at the quarter turn or not. Achieving superior body line, aesthetic spin positions, carriage, extension and stretch are very difficult and take tons of work both on and off the ice. I still drool over the likes of John Curry, Robin Cousins, Paul Wylie, the Protopopovs, Peggy Fleming and Sasha Cohen this many years later.

Polina Edmunds recently interviewed Frank Carroll on her Bleav podcast and Frank and Polina discussed this issue in depth. Worth a listen.

 

[Wyliefan]

I never saw anything remotely artificial about Sasha's interpretation. She skated with a passion that was anything but fake.

 

[olympic]

Kind of random, but my You Tube account's algorithms put lots of skating videos in my feed(s) obviously. I got videos of Trenary, Kadavy, Thomas and Chin from 1987 Nationals yesterday evening, and I watched Kadavy's LP. It was kind of ironic: Dick Button was complaining how the push for triples was marring the beauty of skating; its lines, positions, stroking, etc., and causing skaters to stumble and fall more often. So, I thought 'What must he think of Camp Eteri?!' LOL

 

[soogar]

Achieving superior body line, aesthetic spin positions, carriage, extension and stretch are very difficult and take tons of work both on and off the ice. I still drool over the likes of John Curry, Robin Cousins, Paul Wylie, the Protopopovs, Peggy Fleming and Sasha Cohen this many years later.

Polina Edmunds recently interviewed Frank Carroll on her Bleav podcast and Frank and Polina discussed this issue in depth. Worth a listen.

The problem I have with the concept of "superior body line" and aesthetics is that it seems to champion only one kind of body type and artistry, especially among women. Constantly being inundated with Dick and Peggy harping on how a female skater cannot turn her leg out during a layback spin (which not everyone is physically capable of doing, have 180 degree turnout) or equating skinny dainty skaters with "grace." I remember reading somewhere, don't have the quote, Peggy's description of her competitor Gabby Seyfert as strong/powerful and saying that she (Peggy) tried to be more graceful. If you look at old videos, Gabby's style was powerful, energetic with deep edges. I prefer her robust style to Peggy's and thought she was more interesting to look at. It's the same judgement that skaters like Elaine Zayak, Midori Ito and Tonya Harding had to deal with. No matter how great their skating was, how many steps they did before jump (ie Elaine Zayak) or how great and centered their spins were, they were not perceived as graceful and received lower marks than skaters who looked more "feminine." Sometimes, like in the case of Nancy Kerrigan, it was all about having the right bodytype to look great in a Vera Wang dress, no matter how disconnected she was to her music and a similar emphasis on technical elements.

Polina has similarily harped about Anna Scherbakova's ugly feet and how she doesn't turn her legs out. It has been discussed before that Anna doesn't have spread eagles in her programs and that could be due to lack of turnout. Harping on one aspect, in spite of the fact that it is clear that Anna and her team pay attention to choreography and delivering a program, seems petty and plays into this myth that there is only one type of beauty in skating.

 

[Coco]

I agree with both @soogar and @mtnskater . There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I don't know why but I took a look at Dorothy Hamil last weekend. She wasn't balletic like Cohen but what a straight back, positions, etc. She was still in the double age so comparison's are not easy. But, I could see a big difference to Linda Fratianne, an early 3's skater. Linda seemed kind of bumbly by compaison. Maybe it was just the Carlo Fauci factor.

 

[Coco]

As far as commercial opportunities went, Dorothy had to compete with Peggy. That probably had an impact on what she prioritized.

 

[Maximillian]

The problem I have with the concept of "superior body line" and aesthetics is that it seems to champion only one kind of body type and artistry, especially among women. Constantly being inundated with Dick and Peggy harping on how a female skater cannot turn her leg out during a layback spin (which not everyone is physically capable of doing, have 180 degree turnout) or equating skinny dainty skaters with "grace." I remember reading somewhere, don't have the quote, Peggy's description of her competitor Gabby Seyfert as strong/powerful and saying that she (Peggy) tried to be more graceful. If you look at old videos, Gabby's style was powerful, energetic with deep edges. I prefer her robust style to Peggy's and thought she was more interesting to look at. It's the same judgement that skaters like Elaine Zayak, Midori Ito and Tonya Harding had to deal with. No matter how great their skating was, how many steps they did before jump (ie Elaine Zayak) or how great and centered their spins were, they were not perceived as graceful and received lower marks than skaters who looked more "feminine." Sometimes, like in the case of Nancy Kerrigan, it was all about having the right bodytype to look great in a Vera Wang dress, no matter how disconnected she was to her music and a similar emphasis on technical elements.

Polina has similarily harped about Anna Scherbakova's ugly feet and how she doesn't turn her legs out. It has been discussed before that Anna doesn't have spread eagles in her programs and that could be due to lack of turnout. Harping on one aspect, in spite of the fact that it is clear that Anna and her team pay attention to choreography and delivering a program, seems petty and plays into this myth that there is only one type of beauty in skating.

But I don't understand why it would be okay to celebrate one set of biological gifts, e.g. jumping ability and not another e.g. body line, extension. Certain skaters are never going to be able to jump as others do, just as certain skaters are never going to be able to have the body line. With both work can be done, but Midori Ito was never going to have the bodyline of Sasha Cohen and Cohen was never going to have the jumping ability of Ito (in fact, my understanding is that Cohen's erratic landings were due in part to her extreme flexibility). I just don't understand why it's okay to be genetically gifted in one way, but the other way is somehow discriminating.

 

[coppertop1]

Figure Skating is a sport and technique matters. It's not just about artistry. What does the term "artistry" even mean?

We saw two Olympic Cycles dominated by teenagers with unsustainable technique and we know where that leads. I don't want to see Isabeau dominate for two seasons then retired due to a back injury. We need balance

 

[Frau Muller]

I never got the Sasha love; her skating left me cold, I think because (1) her blade-to-ice skills were seriously lacking and (2) she seemed very disconnected from the music — her interpretation was so superficial.

Neither did I. In addition to all that you mention, she was not a balletic ideal. Her flexibility appeared “courtesy of Pilates”…not natural, such as, say, Bobek’s. Neither was I impressed by her overall aesthetic - wide-ish long torso in relation to shortish legs…and big round head. Absolutely not the Vaganova or Bolshoi Academies’ look. Peggy Fleming? She had the look!

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t care if it’s cool or not to say in 2022…I maintain that Peggy Fleming, especially in her pro days, was one of the most gorgeous skaters to ever exist. I don’t mean her face or clothing either. Just the way she skated and carried herself. When I watch videos of her, I’m completely in awe.

What I tend to hate about these convos is that it always becomes so either/or or black/white. One can love Midori and also love Peggy. To me, it’s all about knowing the skater is working hard and maximizing what they have while minimizing what hurts them. That and personal taste, as everyone is affected by that.

 

[mtnskater]

Neither did I. In addition to all that you mention, she was not a balletic ideal. Her flexibility appeared “courtesy of Pilates”…not natural, such as, say, Bobek’s. Neither was I impressed by her overall aesthetic - wide-ish long torso in relation to shortish legs…and big round head. Absolutely not the Vaganova or Bolshoi Academies’ look. Peggy Fleming? She had the look!

Funny, I know both you and I are huge ballet fans but have completely different opinions of Sasha. I’m not asking all skaters to have a Vaganova or Bolshoi look or body type at all. I want to see aesthetic lines and positions from skaters of all body types. Since skating is both a sport and an art I don’t think a Vaganova look is required at all. But you can still be dance trained and achieve aesthetic positions. Dick Button once said Sasha never hits an ugly position and he waxed poetic over her stretch and line.

The point Frank and Polina made is the system doesn’t really reward aesthetics lines and positions much anymore so it really isn’t being taught. When you have Grassl and Trusova getting high component marks in the 8‘s or 9’s because they can do quads something Is really wrong. I fear Isabeau will not be rewarded for her extraordinary artistic skating abilities to the extent they should be relative to others in Seniors. Give her less GOE On the jumps if warranted but she should have a chance to make that up with her other superior abilities. And right now the jumps get disproportionately rewarded.

 

[layman]

...I fear Isabeau will not be rewarded for her extraordinary artistic skating abilities to the extent they should be relative to others in Seniors. Give her less GOE On the jumps if warranted but she should have a chance to make that up with her other superior abilities. And right now the jumps get disproportionately rewarded.

We just saw her rewarded for her extraordinary artistic skating abilities at Junior Worlds (where she was arguably out-jumped by some of her competitors). I think the judges seem to love Isabeau's artistry and it seems to be giving her an edge (the difference between her overall score and Jia Shin's overall score was less than a point).

 

[soogar]

But I don't understand why it would be okay to celebrate one set of biological gifts, e.g. jumping ability and not another e.g. body line, extension. Certain skaters are never going to be able to jump as others do, just as certain skaters are never going to be able to have the body line. With both work can be done, but Midori Ito was never going to have the bodyline of Sasha Cohen and Cohen was never going to have the jumping ability of Ito (in fact, my understanding is that Cohen's erratic landings were due in part to her extreme flexibility). I just don't understand why it's okay to be genetically gifted in one way, but the other way is somehow discriminating.

The thing is, with "body line", how much of that is due to physical appearance verses development. Some skaters just don't have the body types to be perceived as elegant. When has Midori ever looked "elegant" on ice? What could she have really done to look elegant? She already had great skating skills, great spins, speed, deep edges and tried to skate to elegant music choices to raise that second mark. But no amount of ballet lessons were going to change Midori's body type, which was short and muscular. I think she should have skated to more energetic music, however she had done that and did not receive top presentation marks.

Elvis Stoijko had his own style of artistry. I personally liked his martial arts programs and saw the grace and athleticism in them, but he wasn't considered artistic or pretty. I do think that men have more leeway, especially now that judges appreciate both Hanyu and Shomo, who have different body types.

At least under COP, both types of skaters have an equal chance, unlike 6.0 era. Both the pretty skater and the jumper have opportunities to maximize their scores. We can see what happened at this Olympics, where Trusova finished second to Anna. Kamila was posting top scores with 2 different types of quads and a triple axel. She didn't attempt the content of Trusova, but the system recognized her artistry and the way the elements were intersperses with the components.

Frank and Polina were complaining how the system no longer recognizes basic skills/spins done well. In figure skating, like in gymnastics, compulsories are a relic of the past. No one is doing basic stuff in a program. I disagree that the system doesn't recognize artistry. I think all of the skaters now, including Trusova, have training in dance. When you look at the Eteri dance vids, even though Trusova is not the best dancer of the bunch, she is hardly a slouch. All of them have the skills to be backup dancers. I don't even think that a person can make a distinction between skaters as "athletes" and "artists" - Nathan is considered to be a "jumper" but even before he was winning everything, he had extensive dance experience and he can out dance most people. Which skater out there actually does not have dance ability now? Back then, there were quite a few clutzy skaters in the 80's but now dance training and flexibility is integral to doing well under this scoring system. There are skaters who are artistically more pleasing, however I don't think that the gap is as large as it was in the past.