U.S. Women [#3]: Skating Clean

[VGThuy]

It’s kind of weird to use Ito and Stoijko as examples when they won world titles (the latter multiple ones) and Olympic medals and could have gone all the way to win OGM if things went differently. Even Gabby Seyfert would have probably gone all the way to domination and OGM had she stayed and that’s even if she lost figures to Schuba and the FS to Lynn.

 

[Maximillian]

The thing is, with "body line", how much of that is due to physical appearance verses development. Some skaters just don't have the body types to be perceived as elegant.

But that's my point, Midori was inherently limited in this area, just as some skaters are limited in their jumping capabilities. I'm using the extreme examples of Ito and Cohen, but the reality is that a certain body type allows for an aesthetic more than others, just as a certain body type allows for better jumping ability. It seems to me, that for some, it's okay to be gifted with a greater capacity to jump than others, but skater's who are able to create a more aesthetically appealing look based on their physicality should not be. Cohen was never going to be able to do a 3A like Ito (or a 3A, period), while Ito was never going to have a Charlotte that looked like Cohen's.

I don't have an issue with there being a multiplicity of ways to interpret music and present a program outside of the way Cohen (or Peggy Fleming did), but I also don't think there should be an issue with a skater being rewarded for having wonderful line, extension, port de bras, etc.

 

[soogar]

It’s kind of weird to use Ito and Stoijko as examples when they won world titles (the latter multiple ones) and Olympic medals and could have gone all the way to win OGM if things went differently. Even Gabby Seyfert would have probably gone all the way to domination and OGM had she stayed and that’s even if she lost figures to Schuba and the FS to Lynn.

The whole point is to use skaters who actually were good skaters and had no apparent deficiencies other than their physical attributes. Elvis arguably lost that 1994 OGM because he didn't look as good as Urmanov. Ito was considered less artistic than Kristi even though (IMO) her skating skills and quality of edges and power were a lot better than Kristi's. I even think Midori's spins were faster and more centered, though Kristi was more flexible and could hit different positions.

 

[soogar]

But that's my point, Midori was inherently limited in this area, just as some skaters are limited in their jumping capabilities. I'm using the extreme examples of Ito and Cohen, but the reality is that a certain body type allows for an aesthetic more than others, just as a certain body type allows for better jumping ability. It seems to me, that for some, it's okay to be gifted with a greater capacity to jump than others, but skater's who are able to create a more aesthetically appealing look based on their physicality should not be. Cohen was never going to be able to do a 3A like Ito (or a 3A, period), while Ito was never going to have a Charlotte that looked like Cohen's.

I don't have an issue with there being a multiplicity of ways to interpret music and present a program outside of the way Cohen (or Peggy Fleming did), but I also don't think there should be an issue with a skater being rewarded for having wonderful line, extension, port de bras, etc.

I don't think a skater has to have a dancer body to express music and have great extension. It gets problematic when a skater is deemed to have all of these qualities solely on the basis of appearance, as opposed to what they are actually doing on the ice which is why I brought up Nancy Kerrigan. Nancy and Tonya were both athletic skaters. I think Tonya had better musicality than Nancy, however Nancy looked "better" on ice, even though she wasn't doing much more artistically than Tonya.

I'm a huge admirer of Sasha and I know that her extension and carriage were more than just her inherent body type. Even the Russian skaters with all of their dance and flexibility training do not have the same attention to detail and ability to hold positions and amplitude on split jumps that Sasha had.

 

[Frau Muller]

We just saw her rewarded for her extraordinary artistic skating abilities at Junior Worlds (where she was arguably out-jumped by some of her competitors). I think the judges seem to love Isabeau's artistry and it seems to be giving her an edge (the difference between her overall score and Jia Shin's overall score was less than a point).

Isabeau has the perfect proportions for European style ballet - the torso-to-legs ratio, ribbon arms, long neck & relatively small head. The plasticity of her torso is exquisite. Lindsay also has a lovely torso but doesn’t use it as expressively as Isabeau…at least not yet.

Jumps meh. Oh, they’re ok if done with ease, accentuating beautiful (instrumental) music. Spins too, although I prefer to see specific spins with one position held long. But it’s the sheer beauty that draws me to this particular sport/art.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Isabeau has the perfect proportions for European style ballet - the torso-to-legs ratio, ribbon arms, long neck & relatively small head. The plasticity of her torso is exquisite. Lindsay also has a lovely torso but doesn’t use it as expressively as Isabeau…at least not yet.

Jumps meh. Oh, they’re ok if done with ease, accentuating beautiful (instrumental) music. Spins too, although I prefer to see specific spins with one position held long. But it’s the sheer beauty that draws me to this particular sport/art.

I would rather watch Sasha, or Alyssa C. or Isabeau skate and fall, than watch the majority of skaters skate clean.

 

[AxelAnnie]

But that's my point, Midori was inherently limited in this area, just as some skaters are limited in their jumping capabilities. I'm using the extreme examples of Ito and Cohen, but the reality is that a certain body type allows for an aesthetic more than others, just as a certain body type allows for better jumping ability. It seems to me, that for some, it's okay to be gifted with a greater capacity to jump than others, but skater's who are able to create a more aesthetically appealing look based on their physicality should not be. Cohen was never going to be able to do a 3A like Ito (or a 3A, period), while Ito was never going to have a Charlotte that looked like Cohen's.

I don't have an issue with there being a multiplicity of ways to interpret music and present a program outside of the way Cohen (or Peggy Fleming did), but I also don't think there should be an issue with a skater being rewarded for having wonderful line, extension, port de bras, etc.

Well, I did see Sasha complete a quad while working with Mr. Nicks at her home rink.

To be bendy and create those breath taking moves is in large measure how you are built.

Female ballet dancers typically have loose ligaments and shallow hip sockets (dysplasia) that enable upwards of 160 degrees of flexion when most other hips are limited to 120 degrees before impingement occurs between the ball and socket (hip impingement). This is the same or skaters. Without the shallow hip sockets, that leg is not going to go past a certain point. And then you need the strength to hold a position

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

The whole point is to use skaters who actually were good skaters and had no apparent deficiencies other than their physical attributes. Elvis arguably lost that 1994 OGM because he didn't look as good as Urmanov. Ito was considered less artistic than Kristi even though (IMO) her skating skills and quality of edges and power were a lot better than Kristi's. I even think Midori's spins were faster and more centered, though Kristi was more flexible and could hit different positions.

I don't know, Sjoko was into that macho, kung fu thing. I think these types of programs limit what you can do artistically. I think it hurt Joubert too. You need variety in expression to be interesting - hesitation, softness, peace, etc. as well as strength. All the later is boring, I think.

 

[soogar]

I don't know, Sjoko was into that macho, kung fu thing. I think these types of programs limit what you can do artistically. I think it hurt Joubert too. You need variety in expression to be interesting - hesitation, softness, peace, etc. as well as strength. All the later is boring, I think.

I think both Stoijko and Joubert were undermarked artistically. Both of them had an exciting, masculine approach to skating and martial arts is incredibly artistic. If you watch martial artists practicing, it is an art unto itself and Stoijko did that really well. I do think that over his career, he was frustrated that his artistic approach was not being valued and then he seemed to almost be defiant in his programs, standing still etc during his later programs. Stoijko will never be a ballet dancer on ice. I think Urmanov had better landing positions and being 6 feet tall (or almost 6 feet), he probably had bigger, more impressive jumps than Stoijko. However both of his programs in 1994 were not really well done artistically. I think Urmanov won because he was tall and handsome and received more credit for artistry than he actually had.

It's hard to talk about Joubert because he had such bad luck at the Games, but he too had a great impression on the ice. People kept harping on his lack of artistry but he was an exciting skater. No matter how much he tried, he just couldn't surmount that impression that he wasn't artistic.

 

[jenny12]

Didn’t Stojko (and Joubert) do a lot of two foot skating? I thought that was the big difference between Urmanov and Stojko.

 

[soogar]

Didn’t Stojko (and Joubert) do a lot of two foot skating? I thought that was the big difference between Urmanov and Stojko.

Urmanov didn’t have much single footed skating - like most Mishin skaters. He did have better landing positions and more traditional balletic music- and the knock kneed chicken dance. I like Urmanov, however IMO Elvis had the better program and demonstrated more skating skills. However that was not really a factor back in 6.0 era.

 

[jlai]

Elvis would have lost a lot of GOE in COP era with the way he landed jumps. They were low landings, not the classic landing with runout with speed. Spins werent a standout either. eta: Just checked his dragon heart program at the GPF and he didn't use edging much. Sometimes you can tell his stroking wasn't smooth, and sometimes had to make adjustments to get into positions. He also wouldn't have made done well in figures.

 

[Wyliefan]

Ah yes, those well-known U.S. women skaters Elvis and Alexei.

 

[Vagabond]

Ah yes, those well-known U.S. women skaters Elvis and Alexei.

The thread has been stolen first by and , then by Elvis and Alexei. No discussion of the Kween? We're slipping, badly.

 

[AxelAnnie]

The thread has been stolen first by and , then by Elvis and Alexei. No discussion of the Kween? We're slipping, badly.

Oh I don't know. Women skating.......makes perfect sense Elvis and Alexi should be focal points

 

[concorde]

Female ballet dancers typically have loose ligaments and shallow hip sockets (dysplasia) that enable upwards of 160 degrees of flexion when most other hips are limited to 120 degrees before impingement occurs between the ball and socket (hip impingement). This is the same or skaters. Without the shallow hip sockets, that leg is not going to go past a certain point. And then you need the strength to hold a position

This is so very true!

Now for my public service announcement!

Hip dysplacia has a strong hereditary component. Other high risk factors are 1st born, female, and breach delivery. Many woman have very mild mild cases of it and probably are not aware of it. As a result, their daughters are not fully evaluated for it as babies. But for certain athletes (gynmists, dancers, and ice skaters) with mild cases, the problems arise after puberty. It is horribly painful and hard to diagnose (more process of elimination than formal diagnosis).

My ice skating daughter (now 17) was diagnosed with hip dysplacia (1st born, female, but not breach). I think the signs were there since she was ~12 (on and off sore hip and very unstable jumps) but we all assumed the probems were from bigger jumps with bad landings, not her physical structure. She had corrective hip surgery in January and the surgeon evaluated her for hip impingement when creating the socket. She is hoping to return to the ice this week and plans to compete again (holding my breath). I am interested in how a deeper joint will affect her skating.

If you have any questions on hip dysplacia, please feel free to reach out. There are only about 15 surgeons in the country that perform the corrective surgery (PAO). The surgery is nasty (break the pelvic bone and reset it) and recovery is long (6 weeks with no weight on the leg) but since the patients are young, it goes fast. Two months post surgery, she was walking without crutches and no limp. If left untreated, my daughter would have needed a complete hip replacement in her 30s.

 

[annie_mg]

This is so very true!

Now for my public service announcement!

Hip dysplacia has a strong hereditary component. Other high risk factors are 1st born, female, and breach delivery. Many woman have very mild mild cases of it and probably are not aware of it. As a result, their daughters are not fully evaluated for it as babies. But for certain athletes (gynmists, dancers, and ice skaters) with mild cases, the problems arise after puberty. It is horribly painful and hard to diagnose (more process of elimination than formal diagnosis).

My ice skating daughter (now 17) was diagnosed with hip dysplacia (1st born, female, but not breach). I think the signs were there since she was ~12 (on and off sore hip and very unstable jumps) but we all assumed the probems were from bigger jumps with bad landings, not her physical structure. She had corrective hip surgery in January and the surgeon evaluated her for hip impingement when creating the socket. She is hoping to return to the ice this week and plans to compete again (holding my breath). I am interested in how a deeper joint will affect her skating.

If you have any questions on hip dysplacia, please feel free to reach out. There are only about 15 surgeons in the country that perform the corrective surgery (PAO). The surgery is nasty (break the pelvic bone and reset it) and recovery is long (6 weeks with no weight on the leg) but since the patients are young, it goes fast. Two months post surgery, she was walking without crutches and no limp. If left untreated, my daughter would have needed a complete hip replacement in her 30s.

I hope she recovers fully! Interestingly enough my daughter who is only 2.5 was diagnosed with this when she was 3 weeks old and had to wear a special device that kept her hips open and at a certain angle for 5 weeks, to avoid needing surgery in the future. Apparently it did the trick at the next scan, though we'll see.
First born, no breach. Curious if my second daughter also has it (she s two weeks old).

 

[kwanfan1818]

I hope she recovers fully! Interestingly enough my daughter who is only 2.5 was diagnosed with this when she was 3 weeks old and had to wear a special device that kept her hips open and at a certain angle for 5 weeks, to avoid needing surgery in the future. Apparently it did the trick at the next scan, though we'll see.
First born, no breach. Curious if my second daughter also has it (she s two weeks old).

Congratulations on the birth of your second daughter!

My friends' first-born daughter had it, too, and was diagnosed just after birth and given the same device. She is in her late 20's and has had no hip issues since the doctors told her parents she didn't need the device anymore.

 

[Sylvia]

My ice skating daughter (now 17) was diagnosed with hip dysplacia (1st born, female, but not breach). I think the signs were there since she was ~12 (on and off sore hip and very unstable jumps) but we all assumed the probems were from bigger jumps with bad landings, not her physical structure. She had corrective hip surgery in January and the surgeon evaluated her for hip impingement when creating the socket. She is hoping to return to the ice this week and plans to compete again (holding my breath). I am interested in how a deeper joint will affect her skating.

If you have any questions on hip dysplacia, please feel free to reach out. There are only about 15 surgeons in the country that perform the corrective surgery (PAO). The surgery is nasty (break the pelvic bone and reset it) and recovery is long (6 weeks with no weight on the leg) but since the patients are young, it goes fast. Two months post surgery, she was walking without crutches and no limp. If left untreated, my daughter would have needed a complete hip replacement in her 30s.

Best wishes to your daughter, @concorde!

Caroline Zhang underwent a periacetabular osteotomy (PAO) in March 2015 and was able to compete again over one year later - excerpt from an IceNetwork article that was posted in her fan thread:

Caroline Zhang had a March 3 surgery to correct congenital hip dysplasia and femoral acetabular impingement. She said that the condition had caused a labral tear in her right hip that couldn't be repaired until she had the surgery, which took place at St. John's Hospital in Santa Monica, California.
"It went well," Zhang emailed yesterday. "It was a periacetabular osteotomy. Essentially, they cut your pelvis apart and reposition it so that the socket is covering the femoral head again. I'm feeling okay; I had allergic reactions to the dressing they used and to the pain medication, so I'm still in the hospital, but definitely doing better now."
Zhang says the recovery time is nine to 12 months, so she will miss next season. She'll be non-weight bearing for 12 weeks, and will be cleared to skate after further physical therapy.
"They previously had told me that I had to wait a year so that I could get the screws removed before skating again," she said. "But my surgeon said that if they don't bother me, I can begin skating and jumping with the screws in me still. I would like to be competing again in the 2016-17 season."

Caroline did return to competition and placed 5th at 2017 Nationals and won the silver at Challenge Cup in The Hague. She had the surgery on her other hip after 2018 Nationals (her final competition).

Mirai also had the same surgery in June 2020 - from her fan thread:

Mirai's 3-part Instagram post about her hip surgery 2 weeks ago & thoughts on her Olympics experience:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CB4fzajlLUG/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CB4gMD4Ff3g/ (she writes about her periacetabular osteotomy in this part)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CB4gcMplVKM/

 

[Sylvia]

Starr Andrews' May 6th update that I posted originally in her fan thread: https://www.instagram.com/p/CdOaTi1pTK8/

Since I was about 12 years old I started getting these episodes to where my heart rate would elevate out of nowhere and I would get light headed and it was quite uncomfortable. I went undiagnosed while seeing a pediatric cardiologist. He told me my episodes were not significant enough to cause harm. I was dealing with this until February this year when I was diagnosed with Superventricular tachycardia or SVT by a different cardiologist . As most of you know I had to withdraw from my Grand Prix in France and that was because before I even started the program I was having one of those episodes. Throughout that whole performance my heart rate was above 200bpm . I was heartbroken when I had to withdraw because of it. My journey throughout all of this has taught me so much and I am so grateful for everyone who’s been there for me. I received an ablation to fix this problem and I will be stronger than before. I want to thank everyone for their support and the doctors that performed the procedure.

 

[Rukia]

Wow. Really glad Starr was able to get a diagnosis and a fix. Hope she's able to have a better season this year.

 

[bladesofgorey]

That's awful. I'm glad she was able to get treatment. My friend had an ablation for this same reason and it appears to have fixed the issue, but they found the procedure wasn't the easiest to recover from.

 

[Sylvia]

Has there been any official word on Pooja Kalyan (silver medalist) or Ting Cui (bronze medalist)?

"We're going live this Monday [May 9] at 6 p.m. ET to celebrate #AAPIMonth!⁠
⁠
Join us as @coachmichellehong talks with @poojamkalyan, a #TeamUSA athlete and freshman at Brown University." https://www.instagram.com/p/CdTjU8nuhca/
Michelle Hong on Pooja's accomplishments (studying neuroscience at Brown U.): https://www.instagram.com/reel/CdWLLrXp7Wx/

Ting performed in a show in Newark, DE over the weekend: https://www.instagram.com/p/CdUkQC5r05p/
(Hopefully OIP's Jordan Cowan will share some videos in the near future.)

 

[slicekw]

The whole point is to use skaters who actually were good skaters and had no apparent deficiencies other than their physical attributes. Elvis arguably lost that 1994 OGM because he didn't look as good as Urmanov. Ito was considered less artistic than Kristi even though (IMO) her skating skills and quality of edges and power were a lot better than Kristi's. I even think Midori's spins were faster and more centered, though Kristi was more flexible and could hit different positions.

But didn't Midori Ito always do terrible in compulsory figures? I mean, in 1990, she was 10th in CF, won the other two parts and finished 2nd to Jill Trenary. In 1989, when she won worlds, she was still 6th in figures. Surely this says something about her edges and some of her basics?
I think she could easily have won if she'd been cleaner than she was at 1992 Olys. I think she was the favorite going in. She was an impressive skater, and I suspect would have won with today's scoring; but back then clean was generally viewed better than more technical but failed jumps. She really epitomized the "you can't win in the short program, but you can lose it" that year.

In 1992 at the Olys, she had jump issues that really affected her placements; her 3L in the short and the failed 3A in the long were errors. If she'd done the triple axel combo in her short, as planned, it might have gone a very different way. We'll never know.

 

[soogar]

But didn't Midori Ito always do terrible in compulsory figures? I mean, in 1990, she was 10th in CF, won the other two parts and finished 2nd to Jill Trenary. In 1989, when she won worlds, she was still 6th in figures. Surely this says something about her edges and some of her basics?

Actually Midori had great edges and skating skills. You just have to watch her free skates. Her issues with compulsories were probably due to nerves. Just because people were good at figures did not mean that they had great skating skills. It's a totally different set of skills that needed to be practiced.

 

[bladesofgorey]

^ this. Figures were the opposite of deep edges and speed (and looking up). They were great for fine motor control and precision but imo had very little to do with free skating skills (they help teach balance/blade control and body awareness to stay over ones blades, but great figures skills didn't always result in great general skating skills and visa versa.)

 

[VGThuy]

DELETED

Momentarily forgot this was a US Womens thread and was meant for current news of US women.

 

[Sylvia]

Isabeau Levito article by @Jayar (May 9):

Isabeau Levito Arrives on the International Scene - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

With the 2021-22 season in the books and a generation of Olympic dreams lived out in Beijing, the next chapter in the book of figure skating begins. As athletes aspire to go for the gold in Milano-Cortina at the 2026 Olympic Winter Games, 15-year-old Isabeau Levito may be hearing the call to...

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

Levito is already looking forward to the new season and has choreographed a new short program that was put together by her longtime coach Yulia Kuznetsova. She was very direct in a playful way about not revealing the music selection at this time other than to share how she found the piece.
"About three months ago I heard a piece of music, and I knew that I wanted to skate to it, and no, I am not going to tell you what it is yet," she said as she stifled a laugh.
As she looks forward to the new season, Levito is unsure of what international assignments may come her way, but she does plan to be ready to make a big splash no matter where or at what level.
"They will tell me soon enough which level I'm most likely going to skate internationally," Levito shared. "Whether it is senior or junior, I will be ready to skate my best."

 

[Jammers]

Isabeau needs to move up she has nothing more to prove in Juniors and needs to get a head start for 2026. With the US ladies field as it is right now she has a chance to make some noise with so many retirements and a weak field.

 

[Wyliefan]

There's no way they're going to keep her in Juniors.