U.S. Women [#2]: The Unbearable Lightness of Beijing

[Spiralgraph]

Yikes, Alysa drops out now too? Dang this crud. Our skaters are dropping like flies. Will this happen at the Olympics too?

 

[litenkyckling]

Yikes, Alysa drops out now too? Dang this crud. Our skaters are dropping like flies. Will this happen at the Olympics too?

only if anyone actually gets to the Olympics!

 

[Jammers]

Seems i'm not missing anything not getting the vaccine until they come up with something to keep people from getting the virus in the first place this nonsense will continue.

 

[Wyliefan]

Alysa posted in her stories that she's feeling fine, so I hope that continues.

It seems wild that, as careful as she is, she ended up with it!

 

[VGThuy]

Seems i'm not missing anything not getting the vaccine until they come up with something to keep people from getting the ***** in the first place this nonsense will continue.

This isn't the thread for it, but I suggest you do a lot more research on the differences the symptoms and effects of COVID are having on people who are vaccinated and those who are not.

 

[BlueRidge]

Alysa posted in her stories that she's feeling fine, so I hope that continues.

It seems wild that, as careful as she is, she ended up with it!

omicron is an evil little shit.

Glad she's asymptomatic.

 

[VGThuy]

How long do tests stay positive once people have the omicron variant? I'm assuming that's what most people are getting here.

 

[On My Own]

That's true of all features. Some are more difficult than others. Which is why we see some features often and others hardly ever. Maybe some really difficult variations in spins (or various pair moves) should count double compared to easier features. So far the singles/pairs powers-that-be have not taken that approach. If they ever did, I can think of one or two possible spin features I'd like to suggest as double features.

The technical panel deals in yes-or-no answers. If the rule allows a certain feature to be counted toward a level and if they determine that the skater achieved that feature, they award the level.

The judges don't know what levels were awarded when they assign their GOEs.

Yes, this is what I was getting at, that some features are more difficult to attain on some positions in spins (and also step sequences, spiral sequences, so on).

TP does deal in "yes or no" questions, but the yes or no questions being posed to them are simplistic and often incorrect, which is why I brought up "nuance" in the level calls.

Nuance is more the province of the judges. They can reward creativity in spins either in the GOE or in the Composition component or both. They have the freedom to consider creativity simply in the use of difficult/rarely seen features, or lesser variations that don't add to the level but do show uniqueness/originality or specific relation to the program concept, etc.

Judges could also calibrate their personal definition of "good" positions according to the difficulty. E.g., they might be more lenient in assessing a position as good in a layback or Biellmann that changes to a forward outside edge than they would for the same position if it stayed on the standard back inside edge.

Same, I'd expect, for forward outside death spiral, which is very rare and evidently much harder to achieve an attractive position in.

The communications should have specific criteria that does tell the judges on how to deal with clearly more difficult variations, was my point. At least in my opinion, some of the difficulty is disregarded and considered equal to more simple things.

That's a judgement call, so it's left to the judges rather than written into the tech panel calling rules.

Right, but tech panel ruling itself consists of a series of judgment calls ("was this biellmann position good enough for credit?" or "was this edge in this cluster too flat to be considered for credit?"), so it's fine to say "nuance" there.

Back inside edge to forward outside edge would be a forward spin (left leg for counterclockwise spin). That counts as a feature.

Yes, it ends being a forward spin due to the COE. As I said, I forgot the exact wording and what counts, and didn't bother looking it up.

 

[litenkyckling]

Seems i'm not missing anything not getting the vaccine until they come up with something to keep people from getting the ***** in the first place this nonsense will continue.

I mean, these athletes will likely be ok and get over this quickly. Thats the literal point of vaccines - not to stop you getting it, but to reduce the impact will have on your body, for now and long term.

 

[litenkyckling]

How long do tests stay positive once people have the omicron variant? I'm assuming that's what most people are getting here.

not super long afaik (in the UK, we can stop isolating with a negative test on days 6 and 7, otherwise after 10 days) however, you can test positive with a PCR for months after. To get into China you need 2 negative PCRs.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Seems i'm not missing anything not getting the vaccine until they come up with something to keep people from getting the ***** in the first place this nonsense will continue.

I guess if you think that a cold is the same as dying.

 

[soogar]

I feel bad for Alysa but at least she gets it now instead of before the games. People here are freaking out but it actually is better that it happens now. Look at the Russian team, they all seem to get it and now they should theoretically be safe before the games.

I hope Mariah doesn't feel too much pressure with her hopes for a national title.

 

[tony]

not super long afaik (in the UK, we can stop isolating with a negative test on days 6 and 7, otherwise after 10 days) however, you can test positive with a PCR for months after. To get into China you need 2 negative PCRs.

That's going to be the huge issue for all of these skaters who are testing positive both in the US and Canada. I believe there's a petition process if they do still test positive for the PCR, but China doesn't have to accept or consider any of it.

I really don't know what's going to happen now, but I would say Liu will not be in the team event. If all of Bell, Chen, and Thorngren deliver, what will happen then? I don't want to be all but it's probably more convenient that Liu didn't go through an LP full of < and << which may or may not have been called.

 

[VGThuy]

not super long afaik (in the UK, we can stop isolating with a negative test on days 6 and 7, otherwise after 10 days) however, you can test positive with a PCR for months after. To get into China you need 2 negative PCRs.

That's what I'm worried about. The entire U.S. team may be compromised now.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I feel bad for Alysa but at least she gets it now instead of before the games. People here are freaking out but it actually is better that it happens now. Look at the Russian team, they all seem to get it and now they should theoretically be safe before the games.

1. Only if she can actually test negative before the games, which is no guarantee, and also only if she is named to the team, which is no guarantee.
2. The Russian team did not have Omicron. Infection with an earlier variant does not protect you from Omicron and neither does the sputnik vaccine so actually they are theoretically not safe at all.

 

[Karen-W]

Alysa being out seals her for the Olympic team. Like K/F, she's in Group 2 already because of her Lombardia score, so if she successfully petitions (I'm sure she will), then she'll remain in Group 2 and be 1st priority.

The really big issue though is how many more athletes are going to be positive in coming weeks while completely asymptomatic or only experiencing what amounts to a mild cold. The IOC and China are going to have a real PR nightmare on their hands in a few weeks thanks to Omicron.

 

[Rukia]

Alysa posted in Insta that she's feeling good and appreciates that they are trying to keep people safe. So at least it seems she has minimal/no symptoms right now.

 

[Jammers]

I feel like at this point everyone who has been vaccinated should just get the virus and get it over with no use in hiding from it are we going to be wearing masks for another 5 years if this thing is still around? Who has the final say when this virus is no more deadly then the flu or common cold? I can just imagine our immune systems are probably shot from avoiding germs for almost two years now.

 

[VGThuy]

I feel like at this point everyone who has been vaccinated should just get the ***** and get it over with no use in hiding from it are we going to be wearing masks for another 5 years if this thing is still around? Who has the final say when this ***** is no more deadly then the flu or common cold? I can just imagine our immune systems are probably shot from avoiding germs for almost two years now.

I don't get what you're talking about. Most people who are vaccinated are out in the world and working and living their life. Many of them are wearing masks for consideration of others and themselves and because there are municipal and maybe state laws telling them to do so if they want to partake in certain public and social activities.

 

[On My Own]

The judges don't know what levels were awarded when they assign their GOEs.

Oh, also going back to this, I always find it strange that this reason is brought up... Sure they don't keep track of everything because the TP exists, but they are already supposed to determine certain things on their own, like number of rotations in a spin position, acceleration; edge quality in steps; edges in lutz/flip, rotation in general (deductions in GOE exist when there's no call or sign)... sure they don't have the special equipment or w/e, but they still have a guideline saying that they should.

Anyway, back to the unfortunately painfully regularly scheduled at the lack of COVID awareness, protocols, and news.

 

[Rukia]

Hello ignore like my old friend

Anyway I hope that this helps the other skaters to relax and doesn't like jolt them. I want lovely clean skates for everyone!

 

[Vagabond]

I know I'm late to the discussion of Mariah Bell and her coaches, but in a 2019 inteview she said that Rafael Arutyunian was her technical coach and that she had just started working with Adam Rippon "on everything else."

https://youtu.be/bH-K2-RRHrg?t=87

I suspect that the three of them have the same arrangement now.

 

[Coco]

If omicron wasn't so absurdly contagious, I'd be giving this + result a side eye. I think there's no question she deserves to be on the team, but I am sure USFSA / her team doesn't want her to risk an "L" or a q/< laden program. In a way, this allows for the best possible scenario if Mariah and Karen come through with great skates.

She shares a coach with Karen, right? I hope no other ladies have to withdraw and that no one gets symptoms

 

[gkelly]

The communications should have specific criteria that does tell the judges on how to deal with clearly more difficult variations, was my point. At least in my opinion, some of the difficulty is disregarded and considered equal to more simple things.

The judges' GOE guidelines are pretty simple:

Judgments about what constitutes "good" etc. for the positive bullet points (or "poor" for the negative ones) are judgment calls based on years of experience of watching thousands of skaters every year. Judges' training includes comparing notes with other judges when trial judging, at training seminars, in the judges' room after an event, etc.

How would you rewrite the guidelines to incorporate all the nuance each judge builds up as a body of knowledge during that training and hands-on experience?

Of course include all all your own personal judgment and knowledge that you would apply as a judge, but also leave room for different nuances that different individual judges have prioritized based in the differences between their years of experience and your own.

Right, but tech panel ruling itself consists of a series of judgment calls ("was this biellmann position good enough for credit?" or "was this edge in this cluster too flat to be considered for credit?"), so it's fine to say "nuance" there.

The tech panel isn't really asking whether a position is "good enough" for credit. Quality is not the issue, but rather whether it achieves certain criteria. E.g., "Biellmann position is a difficult variation of an upright position (UB) when the skater's free leg is pulled from behind to a position higher than and towards the top of the head, close to the spinning axis of the skater."

I suppose the definition of how "close" the free leg is to the spinning axis could be defined more precisely, if there is a need to distinguish between a true Biellmann vs. a "half-Biellmann" or high catch-foot camel position.

If the position achieves the definition, the tech panel will call it as a Biellmann feature, even if the position is ugly. If it doesn't meet the definition, the tech panel won't call it, even if the position is beautiful. Evaluating the quality/beauty of the position is left to the judges.

Yes, it ends being a forward spin due to the COE. As I said, I forgot the exact wording and what counts, and didn't bother looking it up.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

A "forward spin" is a spin that rotates toward the skating leg -- what ballet dancers refer to as "en dedans." As I said, counterclockwise on the left leg (or clockwise on the right leg). This can be done on either a backward inside or a forward outside edge. Back inside is easier and is therefore the default for most forward spins.

A back spin is a spin that rotates toward the free side of the body -- "en dehors" in ballet. Counterclockwise on the right leg or clockwise on the left leg. This can be done on either a back outside or a forward inside edge. Back outside is generally easier, but it is not unknown for some weaker spinners to find it easier to execute back upright or back sitspins on the forward inside edge when learning these spins. And for skaters who have mastered the basics and are ready to try a change of edge, changing from a back outside to a forward inside edge, in upright or sit position, would be the easiest edge changes available. Which is no doubt the reason why these edge changes were removed from the definition of the level feature.

 

[peibeck]

I just passed Mariah Bell on the street taking selfies with spectators.

 

[Carolla5501]

Seems i'm not missing anything not getting the vaccine until they come up with something to keep people from getting the ***** in the first place this nonsense will continue.

By the way, when they’re pushing the vent down your throat so you can breath remember you didn’t want to miss this opportunity to have a new experience so you wouldn’t get a vaccine. Yes that’s what you’re missing a long stay in the ICU praying to God that you’ll be able to breathe and that the medical staff won’t decide that since you couldn’t be a responsible adult they will see if Darwin’s theory works

 

[litenkyckling]

I just passed Mariah Bell on the street taking selfies with spectators.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't really blame people for catching omicron (unless they were completely reckless or adopted an attitude of totally not caring) because omicron is extremely contagious and everybody is getting it, but the people I know who got it, and all of them were vaccinated (some with boosters), got over their symptoms (if they had any) within a day or so. I'm just worried about the athletes who may be the outliers and have their training severely affected by illness that may last longer AND if they (meaning everyone including those who will get over the symptoms quickly and those are more affected by them) cannot get two positive PCR tests in time to enter Beijing. That last part is raising my anxiety levels right now.

 

[BlueRidge]

I just passed Mariah Bell on the street taking selfies with spectators.

what I was thinking...

 

[On My Own]

The tech panel isn't really asking whether a position is "good enough" for credit. Quality is not the issue, but rather whether it achieves certain criteria. E.g., "Biellmann position is a difficult variation of an upright position (UB) when the skater's free leg is pulled from behind to a position higher than and towards the top of the head, close to the spinning axis of the skater."

I feel like we've talked about it enough, and if you want we can DM after this, just let me know. But it is indeed asking the question about whether a position is good enough for credit. The definition you've written here is an example of that:

"Biellmann position is a difficult variation of an upright position (UB) when the skater's free leg is pulled from behind to a position higher than and towards the top of the head, close to the spinning axis of the skater."

Maybe I'm just not communicating well (entirely possible), but how is it not? The TP is supposed to be judging whether or not a position is passing all these criteria you've written here in order to be called a difficult variation of an upright position. So yes, "is this position good enough for credit?" is the question they are supposed to be asking.