U.S. Women [#2]: The Unbearable Lightness of Beijing

[On My Own]

https://skatingscores.com/2122/natusa/sr/women/short/usa/alysa_liu/ for reference.

 

[Coco]

Thorngren is age-eligible for the Olys and will be right there if one of the top three bomb. I think TPTB will send the top 3 anyway and send Lindsey and Isabeau to JW but strange things have happened.

And she wasn't even mentioned in the USFSA Fan Zone write up of last night. I'm not sure what the media situation is like, perhaps people outside of the top 4 don't have media availability?

 

[orbitz]

Happy for Mariah. The music is too twinkly for my taste but whatever, LOL. Keep it together for the LP !
Music change was a great idea for Karen. It added a much needed freshness to her skating.
Glad Liu is in a good position to make the O team.

 

[VGThuy]

Did you look at the PCS marks? Or just commenting off what AYS said? 7.75 6.75 7.50 6.50 5.75 Seems about right for me.

It actually does seem off for IN. You don't usually see a judge give a 7.75 and a 5.75. Everything else is within range. A 6.75 seems more in range than a 5.75 for what she gave for everything else, especially since the judge gave Liu a 7.50 for PERFORMANCE. No other judge gave Liu marks with a range of 2 points. One point or within one point except for one other judge that was 1.25 point range is the usual way of judging.

 

[tony]

It actually does seem off for IN. You don't usually see a judge give a 7.75 and a 5.75. Everything else is within range. A 6.75 seems more in range than a 5.75 for what she gave for everything else, especially since the judge gave Liu a 7.50 for PERFORMANCE. No other judge gave Liu marks with a range of 2 points. One point or within one point except for one other judge that was 1.25 point range is the usual way of judging.

But looking at judge #4, their PCS scoring in general was 'off' from what we typically see as far as skating skills being up, transitions down, and then the other three back up to a similar level. For example, check out their scores for Ikenishi, or how Venetta and Harrell have higher transitions than skating skills. I like to see that variance and sometimes wide spread, because we all know too well that most judges follow a pattern and call it a day.

ETA- he's also the only judge who gave Valieva a 10.00 in the SP in Russia earlier this season. He's definitely not afraid to be different

 

[rfisher]

Ok, I knew I was missing something

You had worlds right for Iasbeau. Just that it will be junior worlds. She and Thorngren should head the JR world list.

 

[Coco]

Here is a high level chart of the component categories.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/26060-program-component-chart-2021/file

I believe the GOE reduction for a jump with a "q" is -2, but positive GOE can be possible. So I'm that this combo ended up with - GOE.

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[Vagabond]

I find it more interesting that Judge 6 gave Liu a 9.00 for Interpretation than that Judge 4 gave her a 5.75. The 9.00 doesn't appear to be a data entry error but rather a flagrant attempt to boost a former champion who didn't have a good skate.

 

[VGThuy]

But looking at judge #4, their PCS scoring in general was 'off' from what we typically see as far as skating skills being up, transitions down, and then the other three back up to a similar level. For example, check out their scores for Ikenishi, or how Venetta and Harrell have higher transitions than skating skills. I like to see that variance and sometimes wide spread, because we all know too well that most judges follow a pattern and call it a day.

I get what you're saying, but Judge No. 4 did not show a 2 point range for any other skater in PCS, and comparing that judge's marks for Performance and Interpretation Marks for all 16 skaters, they were all within a point of less of each other except for Alysa Liu where there was a 1.75 difference except for Ikenishi where there was a 1.25 difference BUT that judge also gave Ikenishi two other marks in the 5.00 range. For Liu, INTERPRETATION was the only PCS mark she had in the 5 range and that judge's second lowest PCS mark for Liu was 6.50.

Nobody is in judge 4's head and we're all just making assumptions, but given that the judge also gave Karen Chen's layback spin -5, I can see why AYS and others would think that judge may have made another error since that mark seems off from that judge's other marks. Anyway, it was AYS's argument and I'll let that poster explain themselves.

TL;DR: I'm not arguing anybody is right or wrong, but let's not pretend any of us have absolute proof of anything. We're all working with the same pieces of evidence and interpreting it differently.

 

[Jarrett]

What I get from the marks is they dont like the program but like Alysa. I'm in the same boat.

 

[bladesofgorey]

To be fair, Karen Chen's layback did start out traveling halfway across the ice which should not get positive GEO even though she saved it very well. Maybe not that much of a deduction, but it was far from perfect (I think otherwise she was pretty great).

 

[VGThuy]

To be fair, Karen Chen's layback did start out traveling halfway across the ice which should not get positive GEO even though she saved it very well. Maybe not that much of a deduction, but it was far from perfect (I think otherwise she was pretty great).

But a -5? I've seen way worse laybacks than that, some of them received positive GOEs from that judge.

 

[bladesofgorey]

But a -5? I've seen way worse laybacks than that.

Nope, that's excessive but it did deserve a ding.

 

[Jarrett]

To be fair, Karen Chen's layback did start out traveling halfway across the ice which should not get positive GEO even though she saved it very well. Maybe not that much of a deduction, but it was far from perfect (I think otherwise she was pretty great).

Maybe the judge thought she fell on the spin and ending pose wasn't intentional

 

[On My Own]

To be fair, Karen Chen's layback did start out traveling halfway across the ice which should not get positive GEO even though she saved it very well.

Well, it could still get +GOE. It was a great layback, after she saved it at the start, so they could add up the positive features and weigh it against the travel. A couple of them went +2, which is probably where it should be overall.

 

[Coco]

I believe this is the current GOE guideline for Jumps and Spins. See p. 10.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file

 

[On My Own]

I believe this is the current GOE guideline for Jumps and Spins. See p. 10.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file

From that guideline, it would get

1) good speed and/or acceleration during spin
2) good controlled, clear position(s) (inc. height and air/landing position in flying
spin)
3) effortless throughout
6) element matches the music

Then -2 for travel, since it only happened to a big degree at the beginning, so +2 overall. Unless you want to argue it can't get '3' because it traveled at the beginning, and can't be "effortless throughout" as a result.

 

[AYS]

I don't think Alysa's interpretation was anywhere near the realm of 5.75 level bad. That's the same mark that judge gave on IN to the last place person in the competition. But, it's a subjectively judged sport.

 

[peibeck]

I have to say I really don't understand that judges scores of a 6.75 for Alysa's transitions score, as her program has more transitions than any other skater in the field. Bell, while lovely, was tentative and a bit slow last night, and had the fewest transitions of anyone in the top 4.

A -5 on Chen's layback is equally kooky, even if it traveled a bit to start, she quickly saved it and hit spectacular positions with speed. She didn't fall.

 

[Jarrett]

I don't think Alysa's interpretation was anywhere near the realm of 5.75 level bad. That's the same mark that judge gave on IN to the last place person in the competition. But, it's a subjectively judged sport.

If you look at the chart Coco posted 5.75 is on the top end of average. It isn't bad and right on the cusp of being above average.

 

[Coco]

Maybe the judge hates bangs?

 

[aml78]

Uh I don't know if judging someone's PCS down where it belong belong requires a data entry refresher. Alysa's performance was rather bad this time around.

Have to agree. I’ve really loved this short all season. And last night it fell really flat.

 

[bladesofgorey]

Then -2 for travel, since it only happened to a big degree at the beginning, so +2 overall. Unless you want to argue it can't get '3' because it traveled at the beginning, and can't be "effortless throughout" as a result.

With the caveat that I agree the -5 wasn't warranted, an out of control travel at the beginning of a spin should absolutely mean it wasn't "effortless throughout". It took a big (successful!) effort to get that spin back on track like she did.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

A judge gave Karen's layback a -5.

what???? why?

 

[Coco]

A - I love the skating scores website. Don't know how I lived without it.

B - Congrats to Lindsay for the highest scoring jump combo last night.

 

[aml78]

Question about Mariah Bell. What’s the situation with Raf? He seems very uninvolved and unattached. Is he solely focused on Nathan at this point? It’s very odd. Adam is great for her but the situation with Raf seems odd. He had zero emotion about her first place skate.

 

[VGThuy]

Question about Mariah Bell. What’s the situation with Raf? He seems very uninvolved and unattached. Is he solely focused on Nathan at this point? It’s very odd. Adam is great for her but the situation with Raf seems odd. He had zero emotion about her first place skate.

I think Raf probably has different ways of dealing with different skaters. With Mariah, the battle isn't over and he probably wants to keep her grounded and focused in the LP so she can make the Olympic team (and possibly win her first National championship) especially considering how she messed up her chances to compete at Worlds last year.

 

[aml78]

I think Raf probably has different ways of dealing with different skaters. With Mariah, the battle isn't over and he probably wants to keep her grounded and focused in the LP so she can make the Olympic team (and possibly win her first National championship) especially considering how she messed up her chances to compete at Worlds last year.

Definitely agree but it seems like more than that. He was standing in the back behind Adam. As if he was just there for show.

 

[Jammers]

Question about Mariah Bell. What’s the situation with Raf? He seems very uninvolved and unattached. Is he solely focused on Nathan at this point? It’s very odd. Adam is great for her but the situation with Raf seems odd. He had zero emotion about her first place skate.

Raf is all about Nathen and always has been even with successful skaters like Adam and Ashley he's known for years that Nathan is his chance to have not just a World but Olympic champion and now he is his sole focus.

 

[VGThuy]

Definitely agree but it seems like more than that. He was standing in the back behind Adam. As if he was just there for show.

I think maybe Adam and Mariah have a banter and he probably is more helpful to her during competition as having a friendly relationship with a recent competitor may help Mariah with her nerves, while Raf is the grounded, technical support who guides her on the elements and prepares her for competition via practice and training plans. At the events, he's probably more hands-on during the practices.