U.S. Ladies [#28]: Achieving 2020 Vision

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
Messages
59,504
Excerpts from Hersh's article about Alysa's work with Carolina Kostner (through Lori Nichol) starting this past April:
“I admired Alysa before meeting her,” Kostner said, “and I admired her even more after for her work ethic, her eagerness to learn and her humbleness to say, ‘Oh, yeah, that was wrong. I’m going to try it again and see how I can make it work.’”
...
Among the many things they worked on, Kostner said, were line, speed, jump landings, and how to push off to start moving. They also focused on range of crossovers, when to make the crossovers short and fast, when to make them big and long.
“That’s a great start in showing a difference in her skating,” Kostner said of the varied crossovers. “To not be just busy, busy, busy but to show gliding ability, holding positions, elegance and effortlessness by doing a simple thing like a crossover in amazingly different ways. I think it is starting to show.”
“It’s not just a process of the body, of learning things and putting them into action, but also of the mind, of the maturity of a person, of a girl slowly becoming an adult,” Kostner said. “Alysa is very aware of the steps she has to take, and I saw her ready to take those steps and also to have the patience to go through the steps. It doesn’t happen overnight.”
Both look at what they have done together so far as the start of a long-term relationship. Since April, they have used video and video chat to continue the work. They plan another series of live sessions together in Italy after the Junior Grand Prix Final.
“Carolina has seen my Junior Grand Prix [performances], and obviously she saw some improvements, but there still are a lot of things I need to fix in my skating skills and other areas,” Liu said.
 

oleada

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,993
That’s a great partnership. Alysa’s skating skills and speed are her weakness and I can’t imagine who better to learn this things from than from Carolina Kostner.
 

all_empty

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,744
I'm curious what Alysa's SP content will be.

Since she can't do the 3A as a solo Axel and has to include the 3Lo, it comes down to either a 3Lz+3T or 3A+3T combination (or 3A+2T, which she is training for the long).
 

zigzig

Well-Known Member
Messages
550
She did a nice 3A+3T at her 2nd JGP (and then went on to double the loop, argh) so it's something she's certainly capable of and seems pretty comfortable with.

I imagine if she's adding more difficulty in the long she'd maintain that for the short as well.
 

Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,225
If i was a junior girl skating in this event (with ability to do quads and/or 3A), i would make a pack with all other girls who can do these jumps, to go ahead and put them into their short programmes. And if ISU/judges would not give us proper credit for landing them, to boycott the FS and refuse to skate..... What an idiocy to limit athletes from what they are able to do!!
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,745
For those who will still be junior next year, they can lobby to have a rule change to allow 3A as the solo axel in the junior ladies' SP passed at the 2020 ISU Congress that would become effective immediately with the 2020-21 season.

Quads are not allowed in senior ladies' or junior men's short programs either. Should all those groups protest? In ways that screw up the results of competitions they're competing in? Or outside of competition?

Should senior men lobby to allow quad-quad combinations in the SP even though no one has attempted such a feat in a freeskate to date?

I expect that any changes adding content to senior SPs wouldn't go into effect until 2022-23. But there might be bigger structural changes to the competition format on the table for that future era that would make the issue moot.
 

ErikWilliam

Member
Messages
36
I expect that any changes adding content to senior SPs wouldn't go into effect until 2022-23. But there might be bigger structural changes to the competition format on the table for that future era that would make the issue moot.
I actually think these changes will be made before 21-22 season. For juniors as well. It's stupid that the 3axel junior girls do a 3a-combo and then are forced to do a 2axel in the same program. And why give the 3a senior ladies a headstart after the SP when their competitors have solid quads? Not fair.

What year was Mao Asada able to do 3axel in her SP? It was within her Olympic quad, right? So this should also pass this summer, you'd think.
 

zigzig

Well-Known Member
Messages
550
I wonder if we reach a point where men and women across junior and senior all have the same technical requirements/allowances and the only thing separating the levels are age and a choreographic sequence.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,745
I actually think these changes will be made before 21-22 season.
I'm sure any major changes voted on this year would go into effect either immediately in 2020-21 or else not until 2022-23. It would not be appropriate for senior-level changes to go into effect for the first time in an Olympic year.

For junior changes, implementation in an Olympic year would be less of an issue.

For juniors as well. It's stupid that the 3axel junior girls do a 3a-combo and then are forced to do a 2axel in the same program.
That was true for senior men up until 1998. Theoretically men could have done 3A combination in the SP since SPs were first invented in the early 1970s, before anyone was landing them in freeskates. In practice I think the first 3A combinations in men's SPs were ca. 1984-85. Solo double axel remained a required element through 1998.

And why give the 3a senior ladies a headstart after the SP when their competitors have solid quads? Not fair. [/quote]

The last time that changes could have been voted on was the June 2018 ISU Congress. At that time there were far fewer ladies doing triple axels, and only first-year junior Trusova doing quads. The ISU was not clairvoyant enough to change rules to benefit skaters who started showing harder skills in later 2018 and in 2019.

What year was Mao Asada able to do 3axel in her SP? It was within her Olympic quad, right? So this should also pass this summer, you'd think.
The rule change allowing 3A as the solo axel in the senior ladies' SP was voted on at the 2010 ISU Congress and went into effect immediately with the new post-Olympic season 2010-2011. (There were also other major changes that year including removal of the leveled spiral sequence/men's second step sequence.)

Undoubtedly the fact that Asada was not able to include the solo 3A in her short program at the 2010 Olympics was a major impetus for changing the rule even though, with Nakano's retirement, there were no other women doing triple axels at the time.

Which is why I certainly expect changes to be up for votes next summer. But major changes only happen every 2 years at the ISU Congresses, and there was not an urgent need felt in spring 2018.
 

Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,225
For those who will still be junior next year, they can lobby to have a rule change to allow 3A as the solo axel in the junior ladies' SP passed at the 2020 ISU Congress that would become effective immediately with the 2020-21 season.

Quads are not allowed in senior ladies' or junior men's short programs either. Should all those groups protest? In ways that screw up the results of competitions they're competing in? Or outside of competition?

Should senior men lobby to allow quad-quad combinations in the SP even though no one has attempted such a feat in a freeskate to date?

I expect that any changes adding content to senior SPs wouldn't go into effect until 2022-23. But there might be bigger structural changes to the competition format on the table for that future era that would make the issue moot.
All true... but! 3A and quads in juniors' SP are not forbidden, or not allowed.... They are simply "not included" because in the past there was "no need". Now there is "need" and the process should be simple - add the blimey scoring elements into the computer system.

If something is not prohibited, then it is allowed, and it does not need a "permission".
 

ErikWilliam

Member
Messages
36
The rule change allowing 3A as the solo axel in the senior ladies' SP was voted on at the 2010 ISU Congress and went into effect immediately with the new post-Olympic season 2010-2011. (There were also other major changes that year including removal of the leveled spiral sequence/men's second step sequence.)
Mao did 3axel in her SP at the Olympics in 2010. Did that ruling happen in 08 or 09? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVF8uWTMWrY

ETA: I just realized you said SOLO. Sorry. So Mao was doing the most she could, like the juniors today. Mea culpa. But as Bezic stated, a 3a-2t is worth pretty much the same as 3z-3t, so unless you do 3a-3t it's not really worth it. In addition there is the GOE to consider, so Yuna probably outscored her on the combo anyway...
 
Last edited:

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,745
All true... but! 3A and quads in juniors' SP are not forbidden, or not allowed.... They are simply "not included"
No, they are "not according to requirements."

The short program has always had very specific requirements.

In the 1970s and 80s, much more specific than now. In junior programs, much more specific than in seniors.

In the early 1990s, when some top female jumpers were doing five or six different triples and six or seven total in their freeskates, only one triple was allowed and not even required in the senior ladies' SP -- solo triple as the jump out of steps was not allowed until 1995 season; triple-triple combination not until two years later.

For most of the 90s, when several top men were trying quads and later quad combinations, they were not yet allowed in short programs. Solo triple axels were not allowed in men's SPs until 1999 either.

The SP rules have always lagged behind what the best jumpers have been doing in freeskates. Generally it takes until there is a critical mass of several skaters doing something in the freeskate before it will be allowed (and perhaps later still eventually required) in the short program.

There are also many other kinds of elements that are allowed and welcomed in freeskates but that do not fit into the short program requirements. E.g., jump sequences, three-jump combinations, quad-quad combinations, single-triple or single-quad combinations, combo spins with more or less than exactly one change of foot, flying spin with change of position, one-position spin with a change of foot for ladies or without a change of foot (or in upright position) for men, solo salchow or toe loop ever in the junior short or solo loop/flip/lutz in a year when the required takeoff is flip/lutz/loop, etc.

Same as if a skater chose to do two jump combinations or four spins in a SP.

Meanwhile, the codes for these elements do exist and the computer and the scale of values know exactly how much they are worth because they are welcome and in some cases common elements in freeskates. But if they don't fit into the required slots in the short program for a specific level and discipline, they are worth nothing in a short program because they don't meet the requirements.
 
Last edited:

Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,225
info posted.
thank you for the details, very interesting and well explained. while quads in SP is a discussion in itself (jr. and sr. ladies). The 3A in jr. ladies SP is by default allowed if in combination. So that means it is not forbidden as a jump. It makes little sense to not prohibit it in combo, but not have an option of 2A or 3A.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,745
Hey, 30+ years ago the required axel for junior ladies had to be single axel, and if they wanted to do a double axel they had to do it in the combination -- they couldn't do triples in the SP at all.

There were certainly plenty of juniors who could do double axels and at least one or two triples. But perhaps a majority of juniors could not.

Where "any double" or "any triple" fills the requirement, then double axel or triple axel can fit into that slot, as long as it's not the same as the required solo axel. Which is why in the 1980s (senior men) or early 90s (women) you sometimes had 3A as the only triple in a short program (in the combination) when the solo axel, solo jump out of steps, and other jump in the combination were required to be double.

So the place for the advanced jumps of the era was the freeskate only.

That principle is still true.

When a critical mass of skaters at that level in that discipline are including more advanced jumps in their freeskates, then the rules will change. But it doesn't happen overnight, or the first time one skater shows that it's possible. The big rule changes take place over the summer in even years, at the ISU Congress.
 
Last edited:

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,058
I expect the change to happen.

I do not expect it to happen prior to the Olympics.

Even in the men's event, an axel is worth more than your average jump. You are required to perform an axel in the SP. Athletes have the discretion to avoid other weak jumps if they wish, but without a strong triple axel they cannot maximize points. Plus, now you can only repeat one quadruple jump in the LP. This means--again--that the only way to maximize points in the men's long program is to have a strong triple axel.
 

BittyBug

And the band played on
Messages
21,918
Even in the men's event, an axel is worth more than your average jump. You are required to perform an axel in the SP. Athletes have the discretion to avoid other weak jumps if they wish, but without a strong triple axel they cannot maximize points. Plus, now you can only repeat one quadruple jump in the LP. This means--again--that the only way to maximize points in the men's long program is to have a strong triple axel.
Yes, a 3A is the highest valued triple (the axel is the highest valued jump within any revolution category because it has an extra 1/2 rotation), and it is an essential element for men in order to place in a top spot unless most everyone else has rough skates, but there are seven elements in the SP and to maximize points, one needs to excel in all seven - level 4 spins, level 4 step sequence, and the most difficult jumps. Technically, to maximize points one would need a 3A, and a 4Lz, 4F and 4T, putting the 4T in combo with one of the other quads (assuming quad/quad combo is allowed).

And there have been skaters from time to time who have a reliable quad but not a reliable 3A, who have been successful, like Stephane Lambiel. With the current quad revolution it's probably less likely, but my point is that the axel is just one of 7 elements. How many times have we seen skaters land the jumps but throw it away because their spins and/or step sequences weren't up to par?
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
Messages
59,504
2 Fan Zone articles published before GPF/JGPF:


 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,745
Technically, to maximize points one would need a 3A, and a 4Lz, 4F and 4T, putting the 4T in combo with one of the other quads (assuming quad/quad combo is allowed).
However, what is the point of the short program?

If the point is to maximize points in seven elements (or unlimited number of elements within the time limits), then skaters should just do six or seven quads and a triple axel, not bothering with spins or steps but maybe adding some triples onto the quads as combinations if there were no limits on the number of combinations.

But the SP requirements don't allow for more than three jump passes or more than one two-jump combination.

If the requirements were simply "a solo axel, any other solo jump, and any two-jump combination," or "any two solo jumps and any two-jump combination," then the jump layout you describe would be optimal.

But the SP jump requirements have never been that unspecific.

Similarly with the spins. If the requirements were simply "a combination spin, a spin in one position, and a flying spin" or simply "any three spins with different codes," with no further restrictions, then the optimal layout would be something like CCoSp, CLSp, and FCCoSp, or CCoSp, FCSSp, and FCCoSp. Which would be perfectly fine for a freeskate program and not far from what many skaters are doing in their freeskates already.

But the SP spin requirements are not and never have been that unspecific.

There are specific requirements. The actual goal is to maximize points within the requirements, both by maximizing the base value within the standard structure and also, as you note, by earning higher GOEs and PCS.
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
Messages
14,772
The more I think about it, and the more we see PCS hijacked to 'fall in line' with TES, I would love to see a specific step/mitf pattern judged by the caller & technical specialists in the singles' SP.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,745
Same steps for everyone, with timing adapted as needed to match the music?

OK for clockwise skaters to do it in mirror image? (Or should the sequence be designed to be exactly symmetrical?)
 

Seerek

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,338
With 3 Junior Worlds Berths available, would Starr Andrews prioritize Jr. Worlds or 4CC this season? It's all about the ISU ranking points, yes?
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
Messages
59,504
I assume all skaters hope for an opportunity to get ISU Championship points after Nationals.

Starr and Elsa Cheng both got the Jr. Worlds SP minimums today in Zagreb.

ETA:

2 Starr ANDREWS USA 55.91 30.31 25.60 6.30 6.35 6.30 6.45 6.60 0.00 #8
3 Elsa CHENG USA 52.28 29.04 23.24 5.90 5.60 5.90 5.85 5.80 0.00 #14

Protocols: http://puls-hosting.com/gs2019/JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 4, Guests: 7)

Top