U.S. Ladies [#25]: Method in the Madness

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Although part of it is because Dabin Choi is out of skating this year.

Dont mean to ask this in USA ladies thread... but was wondering what happened to her??

Commentators make a deal about them at 4CC becoming the next Yuna but my favorite for that would be Choi.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

Dont mean to ask this in USA ladies thread... but was wondering what happened to her??

Commentators make a deal about them at 4CC becoming the next Yuna but my favorite for that would be Choi.

My personal opinion: Choi is reliable but lacks star quality. I had the impression that she was being held as a placeholder while Lim and You were still juniors. Hopefully she will be back next year though - the Korean ladies will be a powerful force.

 

[Spun Silver]

My personal opinion: Choi is reliable but lacks star quality. I had the impression that she was being held as a placeholder while Lim and You were still juniors. Hopefully she will be back next year though - the Korean ladies will be a powerful force.

I agree, and I always liked Dabin a lot. But Yelim Kim and Eunsoo Lim have much more potential to be the next Yu Na. Not sure about Young You but she's definitely going for it too. Korea's rise is amazing.

 

[Erin]

Yes, she was a little tight. However I would have given the 3-loop full credit and instead judged the *double* loop at the end of the combo as UR. I felt that there was a general inconsistency in UR's that were called or not called throughout the entire ladies event. I would have called Rika's 3-loop as under, for example.

It’s hard to tell without a slow mo replay of Rika but I rewatched her loop and thought the rotation looked OK, although I agree that it wasn’t a great jump and warranted a second look.

I’m far from a Bradie fan but I do think she got the harsh end of the stick of the calling at this event. The triple toe on the end of her combo was definitely UR, I also would have called the double loop at the end of the three jump combo UR. The flip looked OK to me. Lutz and triple loop were tougher to see but I think I would have given them to her too.

 

[VGThuy]

There really needs to be like a near automated way to do rotation calls because naked eye (even with replay tech with slo-mo) dependent on angles and three humans using their own judgment (plus having one of those three call for a "Review" after an initial call or otherwise the initial call stays) and with this forum showing even fans can't agree on whether a jump was rotated within the under 1/4 rule is why there's so much going on with very inconsistent calling throughout a season and why the skaters can become confused with inconsistent calls or calls they don't agree with (but they can't really say that because it sounds unsporting) and maybe even lose confidence leading to stagnation or other kinds of personal issues.

Of course in order for an automated system to work we have be sure the system actually properly calls the angle when the blade actually leaves the ice and the angle of where the landing blade actually TOUCHES the ice. Of course this is only hypothetical as I think it's near impossible to do this.

 

[ross_hy]

I hope Bradie's takeaway from this competition is that without the under-rotation calls, she would have won the silver medal. To me, that says the final group at Worlds is still within reach. I still think the final group will be the three Russians, Rika, Satoko, and Bradie.

 

[Spun Silver]

Of course in order for an automated system to work we have be sure the system actually properly calls the angle when the blade actually leaves the ice and the angle of where the landing blade actually TOUCHES the ice. Of course this is only hypothetical as I think it's near impossible to do this.

Why would that be near impossible? Expensive, I get. Lots of cameras at lots of rinks. But having lots of cameras at ice level should make this kind of view possible, no?

 

[VGThuy]

Why would that be near impossible? Expensive, I get. Lots of cameras at lots of rinks. But having lots of cameras at ice level should make this kind of view possible, no?

I was thinking more along the lines of like heat sensing technology or something for a computer to do the calls. I don't know how that would be possible, but I'm no engineer.

 

[Spun Silver]

I was thinking more along the lines of like heat sensing technology or something for a computer to do the calls. I don't know how that would be possible, but I'm no engineer.

I think cameras would make more sense because then everyone can see it. Without that, everyone could accuse the system of malfunctioning or being rigged.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

I hope Bradie's takeaway from this competition is that without the under-rotation calls, she would have won the silver medal. To me, that says the final group at Worlds is still within reach. I still think the final group will be the three Russians, Rika, Satoko, and Bradie.

Agreed except Sakamoto in place of Samodurova.

 

[Jammers]

Let's be honest Bradie or Mariah might not even make the Olympic team in 2022 and maybe it's for the best. Neither of them are world beating talents or real podium threats at the big competitions and i'm hoping the younger talent steps up by the time of Beijing. I can't see a 24 and 25 year old leading the way for the US in 2022.

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah but we have like two-three seasons before those skaters become age eligible (and who knows what will happen in those years), so American ladies fans need some skaters now to enjoy and root for.

 

[Karen-W]

I was thinking more along the lines of like heat sensing technology or something for a computer to do the calls. I don't know how that would be possible, but I'm no engineer.

I feel like there must be some sort of laser chip technology that could be put on the blade or boot that could calculate the rotations but, like you, I'm no engineer. And there doesn't seem to be the money or interest to develop this type of technology. But, it would be nice because then the UR wars could stop.

 

[all_empty]

Give Korea one more year and I think they'll be stronger than the U.S. ladies.

You Young will be senior eligible (she turns 15 in May), Eunsoo Lim will hopefully grow into her technique, Dabin Choi and SoYun Park will be back. The most exciting prospect IMO is Haein Lee. And of course Yelim Kim did pretty well here.

Bradie and Mariah have improved their skating a lot but need the technical consistency.

With skaters Tursynbaeva and You Young trying quads and 3A, they will start winning on TES and are working on closing the PCS gap quickly.

 

[MacMadame]

I was thinking more along the lines of like heat sensing technology or something for a computer to do the calls. I don't know how that would be possible, but I'm no engineer.

It would need input. Which would most likely be a camera. Which gets back to angles.

I think the best answer is to have more cameras so you have more angles to study. And also not to be such a hardass about it. If the cameras don't show it clearly, the skater gets the benefit of a doubt.

Yeah but we have like two-three seasons before those skaters become age eligible (and who knows what will happen in those years), so American ladies fans need some skaters now to enjoy and root for.

It's possible to enjoy a skater without expecting much from them in terms of competition results though.

 

[Finsta]

We don’t know where These skaters will be next season. Who know which Russian girls will be factors. So much happens in 2 years. Who would think Medvedeva wouldn’t be a factor this year or Zagitova struggling. Or Rika would be the best skater this season. There could be some amazing US skater in 2 years. Who knows.

 

[oleada]

The 3F seemed like a tough call but the jumps in both the 3+3 and 3 jump combo all looked UR in real time, IMO.I thought the 3T looked closer to << than to <

The other thing about Bradie, is her jumps have often had a small hook on the end. Add the focus on presentation to the stricter calling where 1/4 and more is < and you get what you get.

I keep thinking that this has to be a systemic issue (poor coaching) in the lower levels in the US, because so many US skaters do it. Zhou, Tennell, Nagasu and Wagner, off the top of my head, have the same issue with their hooked landings, to name a few.

 

[mag]

The 3F seemed like a tough call but the jumps in both the 3+3 and 3 jump combo all looked UR in real time, IMO.I thought the 3T looked closer to << than to <



I keep thinking that this has to be a systemic issue (poor coaching) in the lower levels in the US, because so many US skaters do it. Zhou, Tennell, Nagasu and Wagner, off the top of my head, have the same issue with their hooked landings, to name a few.

ITA on the 3T, she looked dead forward on that landing.

Not specific to Bradie, but I think the USFSA need to stop giving a bonus to jumps with a <. A jump can be minutely shy of a full half rotation short and the skater gets the bonus! Give the bonus to fully rotated jumps - both landed and with a fall. Encourage full rotation rather than “landing” a bunch of over rotated doubles.

 

[oleada]

Not specific to Bradie, but I think the USFSA need to stop giving a bonus to jumps with a <. A jump can be minutely shy of a full half rotation short and the skater gets the bonus! Give the bonus to fully rotated jumps - both landed and with a fall. Encourage full rotation rather than “landing” a bunch of over rotated doubles.

I totally agree with this. It drives me nuts that the USFS is rewarding underrotated jump attempts in junior/novice skaters. By all means, give bonuses to encourage harder content but only to skaters who rotate their jumps!

 

[DimaToe]

The USFS is like the KMart/Sears of figure skating. Changes need to be made.

 

[Dobre]

Dont mean to ask this in USA ladies thread... but was wondering what happened to her??

1. Her boot company went out of business.
2. She has struggled a lot to find boots that work over the last couple seasons (and with injuries related to this problem). As far as we know she hasn't found a solution.

Theory:
She achieved her Olympic dream skating at home in Korea, having a really fantastic result there. My guess is that she may not feel compelled to continue. The field at home is stacked with Eunsoo, Yelim, Young You, and Haein Lee, etc. all coming up--largely with the same jump content. Would love to see Dabin continue, but I could understand her thinking that she reached her dream & deciding to move on.

 

[skatingguy]

1. Her boot company went out of business.

This was confusing because I was trying to figure out which skater started their own boot company, and I was thinking that the fashion industry is hard, and also wondering whether they got another job. I'm really very tired.

 

[concorde]

I totally agree with this. It drives me nuts that the USFS is rewarding underrotated jump attempts in junior/novice skaters. By all means, give bonuses to encourage harder content but only to skaters who rotate their jumps!

All bonuses go away by the junior level.
Fully agree that only fully rotated jumps should get the +1 bonus at the novice level.

 

[natsulian]

Ting is young, but it seems to me as though two clean performances are nearly impossible for her. I’m worried about Junior Worlds. As for the ladies, their 4CC performances were telling of how they’ll do at Worlds. I’m thinking the best they can do is 5/6 and 7/8, with the latter being enough for three spots.

 

[DimaToe]

I feel like it’s 2011 again (although wouldn’t we love to have a GPF champ now) I think one of our ladies will do well enough to be in the top 10, the other will not. In general the N. American ladies are in a slump so I feel like Europe and Asia will dominate the top 12 at worlds.

 

[her grace]

I totally agree with this. It drives me nuts that the USFS is rewarding underrotated jump attempts in junior/novice skaters. By all means, give bonuses to encourage harder content but only to skaters who rotate their jumps!

Disagree entirely. Before the bonus was implemented, a ton of novices were qualifying to nationals having only attempted good-quality double jumps, with a few having a couple of the easier triples. Why? Because it wasn't worth the risk to even attempt triples. That's not the way to become competitive with the rest of the world. The bonus system encourages attempting harder jumps and also recognizes that learning fully-rotated jumps takes progression. Usually, skaters land underrotated triples first and eventually get to the point where they can fully rotate. The bonus system helps encourage that process and then is not used at the junior level where fully-rotated jumps are expected.

 

[Debbie S]

I know Ting has struggled with consistency at major comps, but keep in mind that she did Nats, JW camp (simulated comp), and 4CC in the span of 2 weeks. That's a lot, plus going between Junior and Senior length FS programs. She is only 16, this is her first year as a Senior, and she is still adjusting to the big comps and longer comp season.

 

[mag]

Disagree entirely. Before the bonus was implemented, a ton of novices were qualifying to nationals having only attempted good-quality double jumps, with a few having a couple of the easier triples. Why? Because it wasn't worth the risk to even attempt triples. That's not the way to become competitive with the rest of the world. The bonus system encourages attempting harder jumps and also recognizes that learning fully-rotated jumps takes progression. Usually, skaters land underrotated triples first and eventually get to the point where they can fully rotate. The bonus system helps encourage that process and then is not used at the junior level where fully-rotated jumps are expected.

There are two schools of thought here. US coaches, in general, do teach the stand up on anything technique. Others teach the complete rotation first, then work on standing up. My point is neither is inconsistent with giving a bonus to fully rotated jumps. Yes, novices made it to nationals with doubles, but that is because there was no bonus. Give the bonus to fully rotated jumps (land or fall) and the result will be skaters going for full rotation. When you give a bonus for < Skaters will pull out early to avoid a fall because they get the extra point. That becomes a hard habit to break.

 

[Dobre]

I'm going to go ahead & double post this comment about Tomoki here because I think it's relevant to this conversation about Ting:

I'm really proud of Tomoki. I think it's been gradual progress back. That ever since healing from injury mid-season during last year's JGP, he has been getting stronger and gaining competitive experience. Some rough performances along the way but a LOT of experience gained. You know everything is a step. Learning what it's like to go up last at Nationals. What it's like to medal on the JGP, to go into Junior Worlds with expectations, to compete at your first JGPF, etc. Each experience is new the first time, and each time you gain that experience so that next time you're more ready to focus on the task at hand and the challenge before you. What an absolute fabulous competition and experience he had here! A lot of hard work & learning along the way.

I hope people will be able to gain some perspective for Ting by looking at the challenges Tomoki has faced. He won a junior national title and a surprise Junior Worlds medal several years ago. Then dealt with both injury problems and coaching changes combined. And it was tough. It took a long time to come back & through those challenges, all combined with the regular ones. Learning new jumps, learning what it's like to compete when people have higher expectations. Trying to earn a score and the placements at home & internationally that would get him onto the senior circuit. But gosh, what a good season he's had. Medaling at both JGPs in some really tough junior fields, earning his senior minimum scores--first for 4CCs and now for Worlds, finishing high enough at Nationals to grab the final 4CC spot and showing enough consistency to make the Junior World team. He's had some really tough skates this year too. His first JGPF was nowhere near what he can do, nor his LP at his first senior B. But he really seems to have had the right perspective this season. Seen those events as the building blocks they are along the way.

I hope people will see that Ting needs those building blocks. This season has been full of those kind of experiences for her. Coming out of last season with a surprising berth at Junior Worlds and a good showing that put her on a lot of people's radars for the first time. Pretty much everything she has done this season has been new. I really like her. I think now people have a more realistic view of what to expect. But that's no reason to stick her in some peg. She has a lot to learn. And she is learning. She's a joy to watch as a skater. On to Junior Worlds, which will not be a brand new experience this time around.

 

[Tahuu]

As for the ladies, their 4CC performances were telling of how they’ll do at Worlds. I’m thinking the best they can do is 5/6 and 7/8, with the latter being enough for three spots.

7/8 will not get 3 spots. They need to place at least 6/7 for 13 to get 3 spots.

Current season's best scores of likely competitors at Worlds are:

1 238.43 Alina ZAGITOVA RUS ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2018 28.09.2018
2 233.12 Rika KIHIRA JPN ISU Grand Prix Final 2018/19 08.12.2018

4 219.71 Satoko MIYAHARA JPN ISU GP Skate America 2018 21.10.2018
5 219.02 Elizaveta TUKTAMYSHEVA RUS ISU GP NHK Trophy 2018 10.11.2018

7 213.90 Kaori SAKAMOTO JPN ISU GP Skate America 2018 21.10.2018
8 213.84 Sofia SAMODUROVA RUS ISU European Championships 2019 25.01.2019
10 207.46 Elizabet TURSYNBAEVA KAZ ISU Four Continents Championships 2019 08.02.2019

11 206.41 Bradie TENNELL USA ISU CS Autumn Classic International 2018 21.09.2018

14 204.16 Loena HENDRICKX BEL ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2018 28.09.2018

18 198.96 Mariah BELL USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2018 10.11.2018