U.S. Ladies [#25]: Method in the Madness

jlai

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I didn't mean to post that reply. I don't know why it kept my response from the other day and posted it on a new reply. I completely agree with you but I will leave the post up because it is just make it confusing if I delete it.
Yeah, that seems to be the case with me too. Sometimes it's nice to have what I've typed, sometimes not. LOL
 

Marco

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I enjoy Ting Cui's performances so very much. Next to the Russian girls, Ting looked mature and musical. Great posture and holding her moves, no excessive arms, varying her speed based on the music and paying attention to the nuances in the music. I am just in awe.

Hanna Harrell is impressive too and isn't clumsy at all for such an athletic skater. Love her jumps but would also like to see her work on her expressions and selling it more to the audience. She could perhaps spend a week or so with Shae and Ashley.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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I enjoy Ting Cui's performances so very much. Next to the Russian girls, Ting looked mature and musical. Great posture and holding her moves, no excessive arms, varying her speed based on the music and paying attention to the nuances in the music. I am just in awe.

Hanna Harrell is impressive too and isn't clumsy at all for such an athletic skater. Love her jumps but would also like to see her work on her expressions and selling it more to the audience. She could perhaps spend a week or so with Shae and Ashley.
Ting has that "liquid gold" movement.

Both ladies do nice job with the Rippon's. I wish Amber and Loena could take note (if they continue to do them.)
 

Erin

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Hanna and Ting are indeed both good skaters but are at different places. Ting is a year older and now has two seasons of junior under her belt, including a JW medal. She also skated Senior B (Tallinn Trophy) to get a qualifying senior score, and was selected for Four Continents, one of the top senior competitions. Hanna has had less exposure to international judges over the last two years and I believe has had to work around some injuries. She also doesn't have the skating skills and inherent musicality of Ting, though she does have a performance "it" factor.
I agree with all of this (aside from perhaps the comment about Ting’s musicality vs Hanna) and would add that I noticed Hanna could use work on her posture - piking at the hips and shoulders rising to the ears at times. Still a very big talent though and I agree that a full season on the JGP where she is healthy would be good for her, especially given that the US has the spots to do this now. It would be great to see a US lady qualify for the JGPF again (which hasn’t happened since Polina Edmunds and Angela Wang in 2013) and perhaps she could be the one.
 

olympic

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[to Skate gods] Although, the U.S. ladies fans would LOVE a medal at Senior Worlds too...
I meant in the sense that Ting got Bronze competing against the best Russia has to offer either Junior or Senior, and US juniors were in an even bigger hole IMO than US seniors. Japan and Korea were also supposed to eat our ladies alive here but expectations were outperformed.

I get what you are saying about Seniors though. LOL
 

Tinami Amori

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I enjoy Ting Cui's performances so very much. Next to the Russian girls, Ting looked mature and musical. Great posture and holding her moves, no excessive arms, varying her speed based on the music and paying attention to the nuances in the music. I am just in awe.
That kind of sounds like a soar loser comment. The Russian girls won by over 25 points.. "Personal subjectives" why "his favorite" is better, are just that.. "personal subjectives".

Cui skated very well, she absolutely deserved her 3rd place, over Sinitsyna. Sinitsyna, however, even if sent to JW, is russian junior lady #6 (based on season's performances/results, except for nationals). She is behind the top 3 girls and Kanysheva and Tarakanova. So basically Cui did not beat the top 2 at the competition. She probably would not beat Kostornaya (unless a meltdown), and was not likely to beat Kanysheva and Tarakanova as this season shown.

My "personal subjectives" on Cui are: she has strong jumps, she makes a good effort at being balletic, graceful, and musical. She is NOT mature, and her "balletics" looks like a "young girl who is taking ballet classes, and learned all the generic moves and postures". To me, there is nothing special YET! about Cui. She is good for her level.
 

Teamgracie

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Just because someone prefers the skating of one skater over some others doesn’t mean they are a sore loser. It’s subjective as you say. I don’t care for all the jumps over the older beautiful skating moves but that’s me and what I like to see in skating. I still like big, impressive jumps as part of a program. And although I wish my favorites might place higher for their sake, I’d still rather watch repeats of a good “lower number” program than a first place program that didn’t do anything for me.
 

Tinami Amori

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Just because someone prefers the skating of one skater over some others doesn’t mean they are a sore loser. It’s subjective as you say. I don’t care for all the jumps over the older beautiful skating moves but that’s me and what I like to see in skating. I still like big, impressive jumps as part of a program. And although I wish my favorites might place higher for their sake, I’d still rather watch repeats of a good “lower number” program than a first place program that didn’t do anything for me.
We all have our preferences. I personally prefer a programme where a skater represents a "character", has the right costumes and acts the part... etc.

As to acting like a "sore loser"... When there is a few point discrepancy in a score between your favorite and another skater, or skaters who went "head to head" all season, no questions.... such situations are always subject to debates and reasons why one is better than the other.

But when 2 skaters clearly win, with a 25+ points score each, over your skater...... then have some decency, and don't judge a WINNER. When your favorite looses with such a huge score difference, then for one to go ahead and find "little reasons why my skater is better"..... is simply pitiful (especially when the two winning skaters placed not just FAR ahead of your skater all season long, but where on top of the podium all season long).
 
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VIETgrlTerifa

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Well, JGPF champ was missing, but still, she did great!
Let’s put it this way, as we all know, Cui was not guaranteed to place 4th either if Alena was there so the fact she was able to take advantage is a good sign. She could have melted down. Harrell seems to have more fans and a lot of people would not have been surprised if the Japanese skaters and Korean ones placed ahead of her going into this comp. Shiraiwa also skated well in the LP and Cui held on to beat her in the LP.
 

Jarrett

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That kind of sounds like a soar loser comment. The Russian girls won by over 25 points.. "Personal subjectives" why "his favorite" is better, are just that.. "personal subjectives".

Cui skated very well, she absolutely deserved her 3rd place, over Sinitsyna. Sinitsyna, however, even if sent to JW, is russian junior lady #6 (based on season's performances/results, except for nationals). She is behind the top 3 girls and Kanysheva and Tarakanova. So basically Cui did not beat the top 2 at the competition. She probably would not beat Kostornaya (unless a meltdown), and was not likely to beat Kanysheva and Tarakanova as this season shown.

My "personal subjectives" on Cui are: she has strong jumps, she makes a good effort at being balletic, graceful, and musical. She is NOT mature, and her "balletics" looks like a "young girl who is taking ballet classes, and learned all the generic moves and postures". To me, there is nothing special YET! about Cui. She is good for her level.
And that whole post doesn't sound like a Nationalist bias? Marco said it as a comparison to the Russian skaters that Ting looked mature. She is two years older I would hope so. I don't know why you keep "quoting" words that weren't used either unless you are quoting the thoughts in your own head. There is no question the top 2 deserved that lead. At least "in my opinion."
 

Tinami Amori

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And that whole post doesn't sound like a Nationalist bias? Marco said it as a comparison to the Russian skaters that Ting looked mature. She is two years older I would hope so. I don't know why you keep "quoting" words that weren't used either unless you are quoting the thoughts in your own head. There is no question the top 2 deserved that lead. At least "in my opinion."
I hope you meant "national bias" and not "nationalist bias".

I am not stopping Marco from saying what he thinks. If he says it publicly, he is to expect that someone will comment on "his comment".

So i am "commenting": I think when 2 skaters, regardless of their country, win from someone with a 25+ point lead, it is "pitiful" and does not look good when a person finds "something wrong with them in comparison to a skater who lost by more than 25 points".

There is an old Russian joke about a boy and a girl in a Kinder Garten:
- Boy comes to class and says to a girl, bragging: "I beat Ivan running up the stairs today".
- Girl says: "I won a piano competition this weekend, i was named the best dancer in my ballet class, i won a drawing contest, my mother bought me a brand new german-made bicycle, and my father is taking me to the Circus tonight".
- Boy starts crying and yells: "so what.... but you still can not pee directly on the wall".

This joke has several versions, but the punch line is very popular in Russia - "but you still can't pee on the wall" (a все равно ты на стенку писать неумеешь)...;)

So to me, Marco's comment is "but you still can't pee on the wall"..
 
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natsulian

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Thoughts on Ting Cui supposedly moving to Raf next season? Raf’s skaters have consistency and great jumps, so hopefully Ting can take advantage of that. Ting needs to stay with a coach consistently, though. Changing coaches every season is not good for her, so I hope she stays with Raf and her dad has found her the coach she needs.
 

Willin

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I heard that the reason Ting hasn't has a consistent coach is that she hasn't found someone she's clicked with, and her coaching situation for this season was always meant to be temporary. I do agree that she should find and stay with a coach she gets along with, but I think it's important to find the right coach first. I don't see what's wrong with trying, especially when we're still three seasons from the Olympics. If this is an issue of a crazy parent causing coach hopping, I'll be interested to see how that works out, because that's a whole 'nother issue.

I remember back in the day TSL did an interview with Ashley about Raf's coaching and she said that he would only talk to her as needed - that is there wasn't a standard 30-minute lesson, but rather he'd come and coach students as they were working on something that needed help. That means a skater has to be focused enough to stay practicing outside of a lesson, and I think it's why he has so much success with older skaters.
I've seen that teen skaters (even elite or near-elite ones) can sometimes have issues focusing when a coach doesn't have eyes on them because they're used to more traditional lesson structures and paternalism. Elite skaters generally have less of these issues, but some do. I think if Ting's the type that has less of these focus issues she'll do well with Raf; if she does have focus issues or who is used to paternalistic coaching she might have issues switching to Raf. All in all I'll wait to see what happens.
 

natsulian

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I heard that the reason Ting hasn't has a consistent coach is that she hasn't found someone she's clicked with, and her coaching situation for this season was always meant to be temporary. I do agree that she should find and stay with a coach she gets along with, but I think it's important to find the right coach first. I don't see what's wrong with trying, especially when we're still three seasons from the Olympics. If this is an issue of a crazy parent causing coach hopping, I'll be interested to see how that works out, because that's a whole 'nother issue.

I remember back in the day TSL did an interview with Ashley about Raf's coaching and she said that he would only talk to her as needed - that is there wasn't a standard 30-minute lesson, but rather he'd come and coach students as they were working on something that needed help. That means a skater has to be focused enough to stay practicing outside of a lesson, and I think it's why he has so much success with older skaters.
I've seen that teen skaters (even elite or near-elite ones) can sometimes have issues focusing when a coach doesn't have eyes on them because they're used to more traditional lesson structures and paternalism. Elite skaters generally have less of these issues, but some do. I think if Ting's the type that has less of these focus issues she'll do well with Raf; if she does have focus issues or who is used to paternalistic coaching she might have issues switching to Raf. All in all I'll wait to see what happens.
Thanks for the break-down. Although not much is known about Ting’s dad, he is “very involved” with her training and has her running programs that she faltered on. Also, she hasn’t been at Tom’s skating rink in awhile... and the team’s social media is curiously quiet about Ting’s recent victory (apart from Tom himself). Hopefully her dad isn’t a crazy sports dad, and I wish Ting the best in everything she does.
 

Dobre

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Harrell seems to have more fans
I doubt it. Harrell is kind of where Ting was after Tallinn Trophy. She's more of an unknown quantity to people watching her for the first time or two; and at the moment, the sky's the limit. So we got all the excitement and hype for Ting after Tallinn, but then we got the reverse at Nationals & 4CCs when she didn't skate up to the airy imaginings and some people became convinced she couldn't get the job done at all. And now we have a Junior World medal.

Yaaay! I sure didn't expect it. But also, as I said earlier, she has been to Junior Worlds before. It wasn't a freaking new experience like the other two events. And she dialed in and competed, which she has done a number of times that I have seen her compete and has always been fully capable of doing.

On many a bad day, Hanna has been every bit as much of a mess & more so than Ting. But wow, for her, in skating quite solidly at both U.S. Nationals & Junior Worlds. It's a big step for her. There's still reality, and she has a lot of learning to do; but she's gaining confidence & experience. Eventually more of us will be more familiar with her strengths & weaknesses as well. More perspective.

And, again, wow for both Hanna & Ting for stepping up to the plate at Junior Worlds and showing that they deserved to be in the final flight.

We will get the same growing perspective with Alysa.

Overall, though, I really like this generation of ladies. I still think of them as the "novices" because the first time I saw them was at Novice Nationals in Kansas City. (Alysa, Ting, Angelina Huang, Pooja, & Hanna).
 

Marco

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So to me, Marco's comment is "but you still can't pee on the wall"..
I guess you choose to see what you want to see. Not everyone says things with petty undertones.

I was simply complimenting Ting Cui, NOT tearing down the Russian girls. I never felt she should have placed higher overall, but I do feel she deserves to win PCS.
 

wickedwitch

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There are some areas of PCS where Ting does better than Trusova and Scherbakova and some things she doesn't do quite as well.

In any case, Kostornaia is better than all three, and that's what's important. :p
 

Tinami Amori

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I guess you choose to see what you want to see. Not everyone says things with petty undertones.
I "chose" after 17 years of reading your posts, in which you either say something negative about the Russians, or if something is good as "glass half empty". You comment anyway you like, but so can i.

I was simply complimenting Ting Cui, NOT tearing down the Russian girls. I never felt she should have placed higher overall, but I do feel she deserves to win PCS.
You were not "simply complementing Cui", you were elevating her "in something you managed to dig out" against 2 Russian girls who scored above Cui by 25+ points. Again, you comment as you wish, and i as i wish.

I do not think that Cui is even close in PCS to Trus and Shcherb, but she should be much higher than Sinitsyna, that's for sure. However, as far as PCS, i would have Shiraiwa above Cui, and think that Cui got higher PCS in FS because of solid technical elements, while Shiraiwa had obvious mistakes/UR's and it probably affected the artistic marks..
Judges 8 and 9 were giving it (overall) to Shiraiwa in PCS, and i agree with them.

I also don't think that Cui is "epitome of a ballerina", some people claim. She is not bad, she moves like a girl who is "a very good student and learns it all in a local ballet class", she is hard working and gets the moves right. But she has a long way to go to reach other skaters who are "natural ballerinas". Here are few fotos of where she "reached the pose" (not in process of hitting a pose), and i don't see that great of a "ballerina", at least yet..

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/RK3R87/an...ringo-chiuzuma-wirealamy-live-news-RK3R87.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3c/b1/31/3cb1319eb926bf37ce322e7989cf8d8d.jpg

https://editorial01.shutterstock.co...oit-usa-shutterstock-editorial-10073506af.jpg
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2009/03/24/sports/skating_large.jpg
 

Japanfan

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I enjoy Ting Cui's performances so very much. Next to the Russian girls, Ting looked mature and musical. Great posture and holding her moves, no excessive arms, varying her speed based on the music and paying attention to the nuances in the music. I am just in awe.
Just because someone prefers the skating of one skater over some others doesn’t mean they are a sore loser. It’s subjective as you say.
So i am "commenting": I think when 2 skaters, regardless of their country, win from someone with a 25+ point lead, it is "pitiful" and does not look good when a person finds "something wrong with them in comparison to a skater who lost by more than 25 points".
I don't think that Marco said there was anything wrong with the skaters who beat Ting.

And it's entirely possible to find a skater who lost by 25+ points more mature and musical than the skaters who beat that person. A skater can easily get a lead that size based on jumps alone, and we've all seen mature, musical skaters who aren't great jumpers.
 

Marco

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There are some areas of PCS where Ting does better than Trusova and Scherbakova and some things she doesn't do quite as well.
Ting Cui is lacking in TR in comparison, but she gets more ground from each push than the Russian girls.

Perhaps not a deal breaker, but what I love most about Ting is that she takes her time to finish every move, something not even the senior US ladies do these days (OK maybe Mariah).

In any case, Kostornaia is better than all three, and that's what's important. :p
So true. :p
 

sk9tingfan

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Ting Cui is lacking in TR in comparison, but she gets more ground from each push than the Russian girls.

Perhaps not a deal breaker, but what I love most about Ting is that she takes her time to finish every move, something not even the senior US ladies do these days (OK maybe Mariah).



So true. :p
What I love is her balletic approach and the grace and movement of her upper body
 

clairecloutier

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It's interesting, the range of opinion on Ting's artistry. So far, I myself don't find her particularly balletic or refined in her skating. But I appreciate the wideness and amplitude of her movement. She covers the ice very nicely with smooth, sweeping edges. She has good flow and presence. These are all qualities that I find lacking in many junior skaters, including Scherbakova and Trusova. Scherbakova has a lot of detail and nice line in her skating, but everything is tiny and small. She just looks like a little girl out there compared to Ting. I would apply the same criticism to Alysa Liu and Trusova. You could say it's what personally appeals to you. But traditionally, the judges have well rewarded big, impressive movement over the ice in skaters as diverse as Yuna Kim, Sotnikova, Gold, or Osmond. If you put 2 skaters side by side and they have the same jumps and similar programs, the one who skates "bigger" will win, usually, because they just look more impressive on the ice and capture your attention more. So this is what I appreciate right now about Ting. She is someone who I could see being a really beautiful skater in a few years, after she's had time to develop more. Still, I probably would've had her maybe 2nd in PCS in the Junior Worlds LP, with Shiraiwa definitely being the best. I think I may also agree with those saying that Sinitsyna has better flow and smoother movement than Scherbakova or Trusova. Although I have only seen her once, in the JW LP, so it's hard to really judge.
 

Dobre

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Ting looks like a little girl out there compared to the senior ladies. And Ting is a little girl compared to the senior ladies. It's fine that she looks like one. It's probably best that she does because when coaches try to rush the "mature" thing in a skating look, it often seems forced and a waste of an athlete's performance potential. She & Yelim look almost identical. Mom & I were calling them "the twins" at 4CCs.

And Alysa & Trusova (and Scherbakova) look like little girls compared to Ting & Yelim. Well they are little compared to Ting & Yelim. And Trusova's programs, IMO, could highlight her personality a LOT more if they just embraced her charming personality. I haven't seen Ting & Trusova skate live head-to-head. I can't tell you which is faster based off of seeing them separately at the JGPF and 4CCs this season. It's nothing to write home about in either case. Both are going to need to grow and develop their speed, which is one of the pluses of adolescence. I really like both girls.

I have great doubts about Trusova's quads lasting, but I'm enjoying them while she has them; and I suppose her chances of keeping them and/or getting them back later are more likely than the chances of one of the ladies that doesn't have one developing them. In any case, I like her gutsy fighting spirit. She doesn't have to go for that lutz. But she goes for it. And I like the height on Ting's jumps. She has a bit more charm and a bit more speed than Yelim, who I also love and has more consistency and whom I missed at Junior Worlds. Both have beautiful arms. I like Yelim's the best.

None of these ladies look like ballerinas to me; and I don't need them to. Just like to see them developing their presentation and personalities on the ice.
 

clairecloutier

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Ting looks like a little girl out there compared to the senior ladies. And Ting is a little girl compared to the senior ladies. It's fine that she looks like one. It's probably best that she does because when coaches try to rush the "mature" thing in a skating look, it often seems forced and a waste of an athlete's performance potential. She & Yelim look almost identical. Mom & I were calling them "the twins" at 4CCs.
OMG. This is so true. I actually, at one point during 4CCs, confused them and thought that Yelim Kim was Ting. I think this was when Yelim was skating her LP. :lol::scream:
 

Erin

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Still, I probably would've had her maybe 2nd in PCS in the Junior Worlds LP, with Shiraiwa definitely being the best.
This is off topic for the US ladies thread but yes, Shiraiwa definitely should have had the highest PCS in both the short (especially) and long program at junior worlds and it wasn’t even close. I would have been fine with second for Ting. The over marking of the Russian skaters makes it unpleasant to watch ladies skating these days.
 

all_empty

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Yes, if a healthy Kostornaia was there, Ting probably wouldn't have stood on the podium.

And Shiraiwa was probably undermarked in PCS.

(Podium) placements are great, but it's even more important Ting finished her season two strong programs. It's good to start the off-season feeling motivated.

Her medal, of course, is icing on the cake. Even if Kostornaia podiumed and the rest of the placements remained the same, the U.S. would still be the second highest-placing member (nation) and qualified two spots at every JGP and three spots at Junior Worlds.

It was smart for Japan to send Shiraiwa (reports are that she asked to go). While Yokoi is solid, she hasn't had a standout season and didn't make the JGP Final. Obviously they have a slew of age-eligible skaters (Kihira, Honda, etc.) but the federation has always been smart about assignments and placements.

Bummer for Korea, though. Hae-in would have to stay junior another year anyway.
 

Dobre

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This is off topic for the US ladies thread but yes, Shiraiwa definitely should have had the highest PCS in both the short (especially) and long program at junior worlds and it wasn’t even close. I would have been fine with second for Ting. The over marking of the Russian skaters makes it unpleasant to watch ladies skating these days.
I love Yuna. She has always struggled a bit with getting the PCS relative to her peers, not just the ladies at Junior Worlds this season. She's such a joyous skater. I think her transitional movement and stretch probably have had some developing to do. It was interesting that she was with Lambiel at Junior Worlds. It's the first time I've seen her with him. Don't know for sure if he is coaching or even working with her now? Koshiro has been with him. Anyway if Lambiel is working with Yuna, perhaps he can help with those aspects of her skating & bringing in the second mark. Of course she's been struggling with growing & URs this season, and when your technical mark is going down, it's hard to get the PCS marks to go up even when your performance has improved. (Plus she's using the same LP as last season). Overall, though, I've always thought she has the potential to start bringing in that second mark.
 

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