U.S. Ladies [#23]: Triple Axels? What a Novice Idea!

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

That is a whopper of a program. There's nothing she cannot do. Wow too bad she just can't go out there and compete in seniors now

I know, right.

I'm reminded of 1994 when Michelle Kwan first went to senior worlds (placing 8th), Tara Lipinski in 1996 (15th), and Sarah Hughes in 1999 (7th).

Those skaters were all 13 years old at their respective world championship debuts, too.

 

[avivadawn]

I know, right.

I'm reminded of 1994 when Michelle Kwan first went to senior worlds (placing 8th), Tara Lipinski in 1996 (15th), and Sarah Hughes in 1999 (7th).

Those skaters were all 13 years old at their respective world championship debuts, too.

Yeah. I am getting Tara + Nathan + Michelle + Mirai vibes. That performance was just beyond... it’s a shame that she won’t be able to skate at a senior worlds until after Beijing occurs.

 

[Vagabond]

I am not sure that I have ever seen another skater who rotates as rapidly as Alysa Liu on both her jumps and her spins. And on the second mark, I can think of very few girls under the age of sixteen -- even seventeen -- who ever would compare or would have compared to her. I am already looking forward to the season after next and the one after that.

 

[Frida80]

Yeah. I am getting Tara + Nathan + Michelle + Mirai vibes. That performance was just beyond... it’s a shame that she won’t be able to skate at a senior worlds until after Beijing occurs.

Her first year senior will be the Olympic year.

 

[avivadawn]

Her first year senior will be the Olympic year.

That’s my point. It would be like Sasha. Sasha skated at Salt Lake City before she skated at Worlds (her first) that year. Of course that wasn’t age related but it just worked out that way.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

That’s my point. It would be like Sasha. Sasha skated at Salt Lake City before she skated at Worlds (her first) that year. Of course that wasn’t age related but it just worked out that way.

Her first year senior will be the Olympic year.

Although, 2018 was the first year Zagitova skated at the Olympic level, too.

It's wonderful to see Liu with the kind of technical fireworks needed to be competitive at the top level right now.

 

[Maximillian]

That’s my point. It would be like Sasha. Sasha skated at Salt Lake City before she skated at Worlds (her first) that year. Of course that wasn’t age related but it just worked out that way.

It sort of was age related, as she was underage in 2000 when she finished second at Sr. Nats. and then didn't make podium at Jr. Worlds which was the bizarre criteria that allowed underage skaters the ability to skate seniors at the time. She was injured in 2001, so in a sense, her competing at Olympics before skating at her first Worlds was age related.

 

[ZilphaK]

Any skater looking to compete, and their coach, knows what it takes to be competitive at each level. Skaters looking to compete internationally know what the Russian juniors, and others, are doing. They will push the envelope and practice 3-3s, 3As and quads as soon as they are ready, regardless of what test they have to pass. And with the new testing option, testing in and of itself will be even less of a factor in their practice and training.

^^^All this.

I would add -- banging my drum on this -- that I wish USFS would do more parent education. Most skating parents are first time to the sport and "driving the bus" on funding and finding training. If they have a motivated, talented youngster, it's so important to get them in the right training situation early on and know what the general timeline and "ages and stages" are for advancement to elite. I'd say, generally, kids need 2A and two solid triples by 11 or 12, working all triples with confidence by 13 or 14.

In conjunction, I also think that coaches need to be somehow certified to teach 2A through triples. These are big jumps that if trained wrong are going to cause a variety of problems in the long run.

Also --and here's my next controversial suggestion--bring IJS down to Pre-Preliminary OR combine Pre-Preliminary/Preliminary/Pre-Juv into one level and make it IJS and possibly a U10 level. Waiting until Juvenile to get first real feedback on under-rotations and edge calls is too late. If you want to winnow or re-redirect and focus the skaters who have the talent, motivation and finances into the best training timeline, that would be one way to do it.

 

[WillyElliot]

I know, right.

I'm reminded of 1994 when Michelle Kwan first went to senior worlds (placing 8th), Tara Lipinski in 1996 (15th), and Sarah Hughes in 1999 (7th).

Those skaters were all 13 years old at their respective world championship debuts, too.

But thank goodness the new age restrictions have been adopted. Now young girls 13/14 won't be subjected to the technical demands of senior level competition and would not be doing 3a/quads that could be injurious to their health.

 

[vesperholly]

Also --and here's my next controversial suggestion--bring IJS down to Pre-Preliminary OR combine Pre-Preliminary/Preliminary/Pre-Juv into one level and make it IJS and possibly a U10 level.

IJS down to Pre-Prelim is coming, it just hasn't been implemented yet.

 

[Frida80]

But thank goodness the new age restrictions have been adopted. Now young girls 13/14 won't be subjected to the technical demands of senior level competition and would not be doing 3a/quads that could be injurious to their health.

Yes, thank goodness.

 

[ZilphaK]

IJS down to Pre-Prelim is coming, it just hasn't been implemented yet.

Great! I thought I had been hearing about this for a while, but added expense was always brought up as prohibitive.

ETA: I'm not sure what the sweet spot is for training high-level jumps and maintaining health. On one hand, leaping into the air and falling is never going to be risk free. Is lighter and younger and fearless, gaining the muscle memory earlier, better? Or is older with stronger skating skills and less overall potential harm to joints, etc. better? Is training jumps harder on the body than maintaining them, and if so, when is the best time to train? If not, and maintaining jumps is just as rough, again, when do you aim for having all triples consistent?

For a competition-ready double axel, I'm going with a baseline of 6 months training for a precocious skater with great coaching and pristine basics, to 2 years for athletes who are "grinders" when it comes to acquiring skills. What is the typical timeline for acquiring the lower and higher triples? Again, I've seen everything from a few months to, really, never.

 

[Willin]

I've seen IJS at pre-pre trialed at competitions, but obviously it hasn't been widely implemented yet.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Great! I thought I had been hearing about this for a while, but added expense was always brought up as prohibitive.

ETA: I'm not sure what the sweet spot is for training high-level jumps and maintaining health. On one hand, leaping into the air and falling is never going to be risk free. Is lighter and younger and fearless, gaining the muscle memory earlier, better? Or is older with stronger skating skills and less overall potential harm to joints, etc. better? Is training jumps harder on the body than maintaining them, and if so, when is the best time to train? If not, and maintaining jumps is just as rough, again, when do you aim for having all triples consistent?

For a competition-ready double axel, I'm going with a baseline of 6 months training for a precocious skater with great coaching and pristine basics, to 2 years for athletes who are "grinders" when it comes to acquiring skills. What is the typical timeline for acquiring the lower and higher triples? Again, I've seen everything from a few months to, really, never.

IME it took about 2 years for me to get my 1A at 9, and then another 2 years for 2A (though it was the last of the jumps that I learned). I'm not really sure there's a typical timeline given everyone's individual mix of neurological and physical attributes. For me, it was just like a lightswitch that turned on, if that makes any sense. Same thing happened when I finally started landing 1A again this summer.

I was fortunate to have coaches who 1) wouldn't let us work on harder jumps until our foundations were solid, and 2) taught me to limit the number of attempts (3-7 per jump). Their argument in limiting attempts was essentially if you couldn't get it right after a few tries, subsequent repetitions would develop muscle memory for something that is technically wrong—not to mention it would cause fatigue and potentially lead to injury. If I wasn't getting a jump after those tries, I was only permitted to do drills to help correct whatever it was I was doing wrong, or move onto something else entirely. I don't have strong memories of falling a lot during the learning process, either.

When I had my on-ice injury, I was working with a coach who didn't ascribe to this pedagogical approach; I'm pretty sure the fatigue it caused was the prime contributor to my accident. (I was supposed to be getting off the ice when I said, "Let me try one more time...")

 

[mag]

When I had my on-ice injury, I was working with a coach who didn't ascribe to this pedagogical approach; I'm pretty sure the fatigue it caused was the prime contributor to my accident. (I was supposed to be getting off the ice when I said, "Let me try one more time...")

I have always subscribed to the rule that as soon as you say “one more try” whether it is Skating, skiing, diving, jumping, whatever, you don’t do that last try. I have also tried to drill this into my kids. No good ever comes of “one last try.”

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Any skater looking to compete, and their coach, knows what it takes to be competitive at each level. Skaters looking to compete internationally know what the Russian juniors, and others, are doing.

Agreed.

Years ago there was a fairly talented skater at the novice level here who entertained Olympic dreams. When I asked her who her idols were or who she followed, she said, "Oh, I don't watch television or YouTube. I skate for myself."

Needless to say, she was in for a very rude shock at her first international.

Hopefully any skater and their team set realistic goals against the athlete's actual ability (at that time).

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I have always subscribed to the rule that as soon as you say “one more try” whether it is Skating, skiing, diving, jumping, whatever, you don’t do that last try. I have also tried to drill this into my kids. No good ever comes of “one last try.”

I completely agree! Even now I hold myself to the "5 tries and you're done" rule. Better to be safe than stop skating for 25 years, LOL

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I completely agree! Even now I hold myself to the "5 tries and you're done" rule. Better to be safe than stop skating for 25 years, LOL

Or any aspect of show business.

When she studied at UCLA, the very first lecture Carol Burnett attended, the teacher said that if you haven't made it as a working actor (not famous, but drawing a regular pay check) within five years, then it's time to move on to something else.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Alysa Liu's PC Sectional LP:
https://youtu.be/QnLp1zSwhqE

We maybe looking at the next US National Champion..

 

[Tinami Amori]

Or any aspect of show business.

When she studied at UCLA, the very first lecture Carol Burnett attended, the teacher said that if you haven't made it as a working actor (not famous, but drawing a regular pay check) within five years, then it's time to move on to something else.

I am so glad to read it and that people say it openly. It also applies to any "artist and writers" or any very subjective criteria professions. Wish there was a law that states if one continues to pursue a profession that "does not pay rent" after x-number of years (especially if it is something artsy-fartsy with attitude) and one does not switch, then he/she is not allowed to receive any free social services. And with sports, which i consider "elective activities/hobbies", that should be the law also.

 

[triple_toe]

I am so glad to read it and that people say it openly. It also applies to any "artist and writers" or any very subjective criteria professions. Wish there was a law that states if one continues to pursue a profession that "does not pay rent" after x-number of years (especially if it is something artsy-fartsy with attitude) and one does not switch, then he/she is not allowed to receive any free social services. And with sports, which i consider "elective activities/hobbies", that should be the law also.

Yikes.

 

[ZilphaK]

IME it took about 2 years for me to get my 1A at 9, and then another 2 years for 2A (though it was the last of the jumps that I learned). I'm not really sure there's a typical timeline given everyone's individual mix of neurological and physical attributes. For me, it was just like a lightswitch that turned on, if that makes any sense. Same thing happened when I finally started landing 1A again this summer.

I was fortunate to have coaches who 1) wouldn't let us work on harder jumps until our foundations were solid, and 2) taught me to limit the number of attempts (3-7 per jump). Their argument in limiting attempts was essentially if you couldn't get it right after a few tries, subsequent repetitions would develop muscle memory for something that is technically wrong—not to mention it would cause fatigue and potentially lead to injury. If I wasn't getting a jump after those tries, I was only permitted to do drills to help correct whatever it was I was doing wrong, or move onto something else entirely. I don't have strong memories of falling a lot during the learning process, either.

When I had my on-ice injury, I was working with a coach who didn't ascribe to this pedagogical approach; I'm pretty sure the fatigue it caused was the prime contributor to my accident. (I was supposed to be getting off the ice when I said, "Let me try one more time...")

So much YES to all of this. The light switch, exactly as my daughter described it with both axels (other jumps not so much) and YES to the limiting attempts on skills, any skills. I think there is a point at which more repetition in one session starts losing its benefits -- losing focus, getting tired, repeating mistakes, courting injury from overuse or hitting the dirt.

What I see is kids wanting to rush through the "boring" stuff -- learning a really confident 3-turn, holding edges, good upper body control and not looking like a Muppet on the top while you're feet are doing whatever they are doing below. That stuff takes time and discipline and control -- three things most kids do not have in abundance.

Coaches and judges need to be firm on not passing through kids to next levels, either in Learn to Skate or MIF. (Insert "bring back figures" speech here.)

It's always an eye-opening moment for my LTS students when I bring my daughter over to do a three-turn or mohawk and then ask her to do a jump with that entrance. If you can't do one with confidence, you are going to grind it out and have to back-track when it comes to the other; "talent" alone always meet its Waterloo.

(I have a similar speech for young hockey players. Everyone wants to skate fast and shoot goals. Parents ask me, "So, level 2 Learn To Skate is enough to start hockey, right?" and I want to tell them, "Really, you should go up through Juvenile MIF" but there is no way to say that without sounding insane. The better you can skate, the better you can get to the puck, head up, and not get clobbered.)

 

[Tinami Amori]

Yikes.

Snow flake, idealist, utopia seeker...

 

[Vagabond]

6 famous writers who never made a dime

H.P. Lovecraft
Franz Kafka
Emily Dickinson
Marcel Proust
Edgar Allen Poe
Frederich Nietzche

 

[triple_toe]

Snow flake, idealist, utopia seeker...

More like depressive wage slave who's just trying to finish a PhD program without sliding into massive debt, but hey, tomato-tomahto.

 

[ZilphaK]

6 famous writers who never made a dime

H.P. Lovecraft
Franz Kafka
Emily Dickinson
Marcel Proust
Edgar Allen Poe
Frederich Nietzche

The list of musicians who have had their music downloaded without people paying for it, and artists and writers who people have asked for free work in exchange for "exposure":

All of them.

 

[Tinami Amori]

More like depressive wage slave who's just trying to finish a PhD program without sliding into massive debt, but hey, tomato-tomahto.

PhD is usually A MEAL Ticket... nothing to worry, good for you..... well, as long as it is not in "abstract art where you dip the monkey's tail in paint and let her run around on the canvas" and expect a million dollars for this chef-d"oeuvre...

 

[Vagabond]

Spoiler: Do Not Read If You Are Easily Offended

Isn't it interesting that someone who claims to be deeply appreciative of the arts, music, and culture is even more appreciative of the Soviet-era Anti-Parasite Law?

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

@Jozet I don't want to derail the thread* but I do think the way that figures and FS tests worked in tandem had some part in developing technique that helped me accrue jumps successfully. Additionally, I think dedicated patch sessions cut down on the amount of time I could spend doing FS (and as a result, attempt jumps), not to mention providing a warm-up for a skater.

*Happy to start a thread for figures, if there's interest.

 

[VGThuy]

What are all these social services that are available for people to leech from if they identify themselves as an artist? How can I get in on that?