U.S. Ladies [#23]: Triple Axels? What a Novice Idea!

[sk9tingfan]

Bradie looks very strong for so early in the season. I'm not sold on her programs yet but they are improvements over last year's and it's clear she's putting the effort in to try to develop her style. I still say she needs a month with Lori to really help her refine her movement...still rather stiff in the arms and her posture isn't great. Still, I'm thoroughly impressed with her. She's going for it this year. Gotta love that.

To quote Lori Nichol and Michelle Kwan, she needs to learn how to "ooze like toothpaste"!

 

[kwanatic]

Not in singles but don’t forget Vanessa James! So 3 Black women at this competition.

I forgot about James, and she and Cipres won! That's three black women in one event and two on the podium. I'm pretty sure this is the only time that's happened in history

 

[kwanatic]

To quote Lori Nichol and Michelle Kwan, she needs to learn how to "ooze like toothpaste"!

Exactly! That ooze quality is what she needs to really bring the feeling and emotion out of her movement. That would bring her skating to an entirely different level.

Oh please TPTB please send her to Lori for just a bit!

 

[meggonzo]

Thanks, so basically @Sylvia posted those three criteria that had absolutely nothing to do with Gracie Gold's comeback. Gracie just happened to luck into an international assignment that conflicted with Sectionals so she has a free pass to Nationals. Got it.

I think Sylvia was replying to a comment made about Gracie getting a bye to Nationals because she was an Olympic medalist. She bolded the text about most recent Olympics since Gracie's medal was from 2014.

 

[Frida80]

I forgot about James, and she and Cipres won! That's three black women in one event and two on the podium. I'm pretty sure this is the only time that's happened in history

Good grief. You guys are making me wish Starr could go to IdF so they could be together again.

 

[sk9tingfan]

Exactly! That ooze quality is what she needs to really bring the feeling and emotion out of her movement. That would bring her skating to an entirely different level.

Oh please TPTB please send her to Lori for just a bit!

I was hoping that after the Olympics that Bradie would change coaches to develop more artistic capabilities; very much like Gracie did with Frank. I hope that she will do so by next season. But I think that money may really be an issue

 

[rinettoii]

I dug a little deeper about this National bye thing because there are criteria for selecting who gets it is kind of vague. Basically, assuming that this "proximity to their Sectionals" clause is 7 days, I will assume that anyone who gets assigned to a competition one week after or one week before his or her respective sectional will get a bye to Nats.

For 2016 Nats, here is a list of skaters who received a bye (and their reasons):
Max Aaron - Top 5 at 2015 Nats
Jason Brown - Top 5 at 2015 Nats
Nathan Chen - Qualified to JGPF
Tim Dolensky - possibly by assignment to Skate Canada (Skate Canada was 2 weeks before Sectionals, but Jordan Moeller who was assigned to a CS the week right after Sectionals did not receive a bye and, obviously, had to qualify through Sectionals)
Richard Dornbush - GP events
Joshua Farris - Top 5 at 2015 Nats
Grant Hochstein - GP events
Ross Miner - GP events
Adam Rippon - GP events
Vincent Zhou - qualified to JGPF

Maybe there's some variability?? Hopefully the fed publishes a firm, strict criteria... you know, if they ever publish any strict guidelines for anything...

 

[chameleonster]

Coaching changes can be a risky business. If it ain't broke, why fix it? She's a steady competitor with a strong technical arsenal and competing programs packed with transitions that pick up points. I think she should stay with her current coaches but just add some consultation on top of it. I've been thinking for awhile that it might be good for her to hang out with some ice dancers for awhile. Montreal might not be feasible for an extended stay, but she's not that far away from Detroit. Marina isn't very busy right now, or Pasquale could give her some choreography if she wants to train with more ice dancers.

 

[kwanatic]

I was hoping that after the Olympics that Bradie would change coaches to develop more artistic capabilities; very much like Gracie did with Frank. I hope that she will do so by next season. But I think that money may really be an issue

See, I don't even think the coach is the issue. Her coach seems to be working out just fine; it's the choreographer they need to shake up. I'm not crazy about the choreography of Bradie's programs right now but it's not terrible. If they polish it up I think it could be good.

If I were part of the USFS I'd make working with Lori part of Champs Camp...or maybe they send all of the top skaters to Lori to work with her for a week or so. I'm not even talking about getting choreography--just to work on movement. Lori is brilliant at movement and that's what a lot of these skaters need coaching on. Extending the movement, finishing the movement, allowing the movement to breathe...it makes a huge difference.

 

[Coco]

I know for a while Frank was working as a consultant coach for USFSA. But to get Lori to work as a consultant choreographer, basically a movement consultant working with everyone in the ISP, that would be a huge coup. To do this I would think she couldn't be choreographing for any non US skaters.

That's a great idea, @kwanatic

 

[kwanfan1818]

I forgot about James, and she and Cipres won! That's three black women in one event and two on the podium. I'm pretty sure this is the only time that's happened in history

Having gone back and forth between the feeds and the results, I lost track of who was competing in which event last weekend.

 

[Cleo1782]

I think Sylvia was replying to a comment made about Gracie getting a bye to Nationals because she was an Olympic medalist. She bolded the text about most recent Olympics since Gracie's medal was from 2014.

She was replying to what I said. I thought Gracie got a bye as a former Olympic medalist period. I didn't realize it was from the last Olympics. Because last year she technically got a bye on that but obviously didn't use it.. Because she was only 6th? at Nationals the year before and didn't get an automatic bye for placement.

 

[honey]

I think Bradies has upped her polish quite a bit over last year. She has room to grow with expression, but I can see she’s putting in effort. I expect her on some podiums this year

If I had to make a comment about her programs, it would be to ask why, why, why do they keep mixing different styles of music together. She did it last year with Cinderella, using both the Disney and the Prokofiev pieces. And this year with Romeo and Juliet, she’s gone for the trifecta of Prokofiev, Rota and the modern film version. For me, it makes for programs with no cohesiveness. The overall theme is obviously the same, but none of those pieces belong together in 1 program (JMO, of course ).

But she has interesting choreo, lots of transitions etc..and I’m sure when push comes to shove and she lands her jumps, the music isn’t going to matter a whole bunch anyway.

 

[aftershocks]

I was hoping that after the Olympics that Bradie would change coaches to develop more artistic capabilities;

Merely changing coaches does not equate to "developing more artistic capabilities."

I'm not going to try to give Bradie any unsolicited advice about her skating. She seems to be very self-possessed, passionate about skating, and smart about her career trajectory in her own right, and to her own credit. Unlike TSL's deadbeat claim, Bradie is not 'sneaking-in' anywhere, she's flat-out earning her success the old-fashioned way: via grit, determination, talent, listening to her coaches and mentors while still having a mind of her own, truly applying herself in a thoughtful way, and putting in the hardworking hours of training, and then some!

I was wishing she didn't win as USFSA now will hype her to the skies. (((Pressure)))

Winning is the goal and the objective. That's what you strive for as a competitive athlete. In figure skating, you come prepared and do your damndest to compete to your utmost ability. What others do and what the judges decide is out of Bradie's hands. What's in Bradie's power is how she comes back to move forward after every competition, win or lose. She came back very well at Worlds, after her first Olympics. And, she's performed exceedingly well in an early senior B after a learning and growing off-season. All the outside stuff from fans, federation, media, etc., is the pressure a skater has to learn how to filter out completely.

 

[aftershocks]

That's what they said about Nathan until the Olympic short happened.

And? Nathan Chen is now the current men's World champion studying at Yale University, as he takes the leap of faith to continue competing at the highest level while juggling a tough academic schedule. Nathan is also an Olympian with a team bronze medal, and the cred of winning the Olympic men's singles fp, despite placing fifth overall.

Do fans ever learn anything by watching what skaters go through and overcome in a larger-than-life arena? Nothing is set in stone (albeit we knew the women's Olympic gold was between Med and Zag -- tho' once again anything could have happened, as it subsequently did at Worlds for the women). We are in another quad, and the most exciting thing for me is going to be experiencing how the new generation of up-and-coming skaters are going to rock their journeys.

 

[WillyElliot]

I know for a while Frank was working as a consultant coach for USFSA. But to get Lori to work as a consultant choreographer, basically a movement consultant working with everyone in the ISP, that would be a huge coup. To do this I would think she couldn't be choreographing for any non US skaters.

That's a great idea, @kwanatic

I think Lori Nichol would be great working in this capacity. Her LPs have really been stale for several years, maybe she should just ditch giving new skaters recycled old programs that don't 'fit' random skater X and just focus on finishing touches? For what she charges it is near criminal to see depressing retreads that offer nothing for the latest skater/victim.

 

[WillyElliot]

I was hoping that after the Olympics that Bradie would change coaches to develop more artistic capabilities; very much like Gracie did with Frank. I hope that she will do so by next season. But I think that money may really be an issue

I don't think she needs a change of coach, because she is doing fine and also improving technically. She just needs better packaging and that just needs a new choreographer (which she has done this year?) and listening to a styling expert. She is obviously an extremely motivated and determined athlete, and I am impressed with her improvement this year in her overall package. Gracie obviously had difficulty with going to Carroll and getting the Carroll packaging which affected her performances. So I say don't try to fix something that isn't broken.

Also, I think (just a hunch, I do not know her) that she is not the type to crumble under expectations and its added pressure. There is alot to be said for being older and more mature when you hit your stride/peak. She knows where she's been and what her aspirations are, and I don't think she would let being the favorite by USFS will change her outlook. Or at least it shouldn't.

 

[sk9tingfan]

I don't think she needs a change of coach, because she is doing fine and also improving technically. She just needs better packaging and that just needs a new choreographer (which she has done this year?) and listening to a styling expert. She is obviously an extremely motivated and determined athlete, and I am impressed with her improvement this year in her overall package. Gracie obviously had difficulty with going to Carroll and getting the Carroll packaging which affected her performances. So I say don't try to fix something that isn't broken.

Also, I think (just a hunch, I do not know her) that she is not the type to crumble under expectations and its added pressure. There is alot to be said for being older and more mature when you hit your stride/peak. She knows where she's been and what her aspirations are, and I don't think she would let being the favorite by USFS will change her outlook. Or at least it shouldn't.

You make some very good points. She does need a new choreographer and stylist, although I loved her long program costume. I agree that she is very focused and has a lot of self possession and internal strength

 

[vesperholly]

NBC won't bother Bradie as much as they will bother us

 

[pairskatingfan]

I dug a little deeper about this National bye thing because there are criteria for selecting who gets it is kind of vague. Basically, assuming that this "proximity to their Sectionals" clause is 7 days, I will assume that anyone who gets assigned to a competition one week after or one week before his or her respective sectional will get a bye to Nats.

For 2016 Nats, here is a list of skaters who received a bye (and their reasons):
Max Aaron - Top 5 at 2015 Nats
Jason Brown - Top 5 at 2015 Nats
Nathan Chen - Qualified to JGPF
Tim Dolensky - possibly by assignment to Skate Canada (Skate Canada was 2 weeks before Sectionals, but Jordan Moeller who was assigned to a CS the week right after Sectionals did not receive a bye and, obviously, had to qualify through Sectionals)
Richard Dornbush - GP events
Joshua Farris - Top 5 at 2015 Nats
Grant Hochstein - GP events
Ross Miner - GP events
Adam Rippon - GP events
Vincent Zhou - qualified to JGPF

Maybe there's some variability?? Hopefully the fed publishes a firm, strict criteria... you know, if they ever publish any strict guidelines for anything...

The criteria has changed since then, that’s why there’s variability

 

[Sylvia]

The criteria has changed since then, that’s why there’s variability

How has the criteria changed?

...
Tim Dolensky - possibly by assignment to Skate Canada (Skate Canada was 2 weeks before Sectionals, but Jordan Moeller who was assigned to a CS the week right after Sectionals did not receive a bye and, obviously, had to qualify through Sectionals)

This is what I posted back in the 2015 U.S. Men's thread re. Dolensky's bye through Sectionals that season:

AFAIK, the international bye rule through Regionals/Sectionals can be, and has been, modified from year to year with the approval of the chairs of USFS' International and Competitions committees. My unofficial hearsay is that byes through Sectionals are being given this year to skaters with 3 internationals (any combination of GP or Challenger/Sr. B assignments). Dolensky has competed in 2 Challengers (U.S. International Classic in SLC, Finlandia Trophy) and Skate Canada.

AFAIK, this rule (policy is a better word) likely is still in effect this season -- for example, Starr Andrews has competed in 2 Challengers (Asian Open Trophy & Autumn Classic Int'l) and will make her GP debut at Skate America, thereby qualifying her for a bye through Sectionals to Nationals.

@her grace's question referred to the policy in this part of her post earlier:

Easterns: Wessenberg* ...
*Does Wessenberg get a bye for being on the GP or is the rule that you need 3 intl events to get a bye when the dates don't conflict?

I don't believe she currently qualifies for a bye through Sectionals but, in any case, she and her coach will be informed by USFS' Competitions Chair whether or not she does.

ETA:

(I will start my annual U.S. Regionals info/links thread in the Kiss & Cry section later).

Link: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...1-2018-sa-ugl-nwp-ne-sw-cp-na-egl-swp.104441/
(For those without Kiss & Cry access: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/regionals/ )

 

[kwanatic]

You make some very good points. She does need a new choreographer and stylist, although I loved her long program costume. I agree that she is very focused and has a lot of self possession and internal strength

I think the FS costume is nice, I just wish they'd configured the dress closures differently. They are on her shoulders and look a bit lumpy. I suppose from far away you can't really see it but up close it's noticeable.

I like the SP costume too but, IMO, it doesn't match the music. I'd have gone for something less classical. The music is unique and different. A sleek, modern look would have been better. The music makes me think of a solid dark color with some interesting cut outs and minimal sparkles. A bodysuit may have even worked.

I just think the traditional style sparkly dress doesn't capture the feel of the music.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

How has the criteria changed?

I along with my wife, Heavenly Joy am one of the most popular member's of this sight all though people have said I do not speak English good which is unpossible as I am a USAmerican. Proud of the red white and blue from the day I was brung into this crazy World.

But I do know the word 'criteria' is a plural so you gots to say how have the criteria changed.

Now I must add that Cortney Hicks has got my juice's flowing with her Nut Cracker, what a program! My wife had to take a cold shower after he watched the skate. I hope HEavenly will come and share her opinion's because she was sure loud and "enthused".

 

[slicekw]

Bradie has great basics and I appreciate her improvements this year. But she still looks juniorish.

1. Posture. she has a hunch and her neck, chest, shoulders and arms don't relate to each other correctly. She's gangly. Gangly girls often are either Olive Oyl arms and legs akimbo like Bradie (see Edward in Cowboy Bebop). Often her hand, shoulder and elbow are not aware of what the other upper body pieces are doing.

2. She still lacks finish to her movements, particularly her hands, or when she comes out of a position she relaxes instead of a fluid finish.

3. She may be passionate about her sport but other than her jumps and spins, she lacks passion, attack, fire in the belly. I think she has it inside, I'd like to see it.

4. Musicality. Can't she find some music that she can FEEL? Sasha Cohen did this for years and it was noticeable when she found music that she felt. (this is related to #3)

Frankly, I'd keep her far away from Lori Nichol and I'd send her to Rohene Ward. Jason Brown is gangly when he isn't skating, but on ice he has all the beautiful finish that Bradie lacks, and I expect Rohene could really help her.

Also ballet. She really needs to lift from the breastbone and learn the relationship of her upper body pieces and parts. I'd love to see her get that together.

(and she needs a natural blonde to design her makeup. She's wearing makeup that would better suit a natural brunette. but that's the visual artist in me.)

 

[Sylvia]

Thank you @StasiyaGalustyanLove for the correction re. criteria vs. criterion. I can't believe I made that mistake.

Senior Ladies Scoretracker page is updated (includes projected byes through Regionals/Sectionals - not yet confirmed or complete at this time): https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-senior-ladies-scores/

 

[pairskatingfan]

How has the criteria changed?

This is what I posted back in the 2015 U.S. Men's thread re. Dolensky's bye through Sectionals that season:

AFAIK, this rule (policy is a better word) likely is still in effect this season -- for example, Starr Andrews has competed in 2 Challengers (Asian Open Trophy & Autumn Classic Int'l) and will make her GP debut at Skate America, thereby qualifying her for a bye through Sectionals to Nationals.

@her grace's question referred to the policy in this part of her post earlier:

I don't believe she currently qualifies for a bye through Sectionals but, in any case, she and her coach will be informed by USFS' Competitions Chair whether or not she does.

ETA:

Link: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...1-2018-sa-ugl-nwp-ne-sw-cp-na-egl-swp.104441/
(For those without Kiss & Cry access: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/regionals/ )

I believe that the rule used to be any competition within 2 weeks of sectionals granted a skater a bye. Now, I think you said it’s within one week. It’s possible from 2 years ago that Moeller was given his assignment after sectionals... or already knew of his assignment and elected to compete anyways.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Bradie has great basics and I appreciate her improvements this year. But she still looks juniorish.

1. Posture. she has a hunch and her neck, chest, shoulders and arms don't relate to each other correctly. She's gangly. Gangly girls often are either Olive Oyl arms and legs akimbo like Bradie (see Edward in Cowboy Bebop). Often her hand, shoulder and elbow are not aware of what the other upper body pieces are doing.

2. She still lacks finish to her movements, particularly her hands, or when she comes out of a position she relaxes instead of a fluid finish.

3. She may be passionate about her sport but other than her jumps and spins, she lacks passion, attack, fire in the belly. I think she has it inside, I'd like to see it.

4. Musicality. Can't she find some music that she can FEEL? Sasha Cohen did this for years and it was noticeable when she found music that she felt. (this is related to #3)

Frankly, I'd keep her far away from Lori Nichol and I'd send her to Rohene Ward. Jason Brown is gangly when he isn't skating, but on ice he has all the beautiful finish that Bradie lacks, and I expect Rohene could really help her.

Also ballet. She really needs to lift from the breastbone and learn the relationship of her upper body pieces and parts. I'd love to see her get that together.

(and she needs a natural blonde to design her makeup. She's wearing makeup that would better suit a natural brunette. but that's the visual artist in me.)

Gee, anything else?

If you feel this way about our top American I cant imagine your laundry list for Bell, Glenn, Wang, Gold, Hicks, Andrews, Chen etc etc.

Kinda remind me when Hughes was scrutinized to death. But things turned out well for her too!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Senior Ladies Scoretracker page is updated (includes projected byes through Regionals/Sectionals - not yet confirmed or complete at this time): https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-senior-ladies-scores/

Sigh, now I really want Glenn at SkAm.

Any other opps for her for another B?

 

[rinettoii]

I believe that the rule used to be any competition within 2 weeks of sectionals granted a skater a bye. Now, I think you said it’s within one week. It’s possible from 2 years ago that Moeller was given his assignment after sectionals... or already knew of his assignment and elected to compete anyways.

Looking at how everyone qualified for Nationals that year, it's shown that he qualified through Sectionals, otherwise the 5th placed man at his Sectional would have qualified, but didn't.

 

[kwanatic]

Gee, anything else?

If you feel this way about our top American I cant imagine your laundry list for Bell, Glenn, Wang, Gold, Hicks, Andrews, Chen etc etc.

Kinda remind me when Hughes was scrutinized to death. But things turned out well for her too!

@slicekw may have been blunt but he/she made some valid points.

Bradie's posture isn't great. She's hunched and rounded at the shoulder. It's not as bad as some I've seen but it's not exactly good either. That is something she could work on.

I don't exactly find her gangly per se but I do think her movement lacks flow. Her arms are stiff and it affects her presentation and makes her overall skating look a bit rigid. It's something she just has to work on.

I also agree she lacks polish and could do with some work in this area, hence my suggestions she spend some time with Lori Nichol. I just think back to the drastic change Lori had on Gracie's skating when they first started working together. Gracie's rough presentation improved by leaps and bounds in a few short weeks. Imagine what she could do with Bradie, who isn't nearly as rough as Gracie was...

I don't think Bradie lacks passion or attack. For some skaters you can see and feel it; for others it's more subtle. Bradie falls on the subtle side. She's got the fire and attack though. I see that based purely on what we've seen from the effort she's putting in. She's coming out guns blazing into this season and now is the time to do it. The post-Olympic year tends to be a transitional one: skaters retiring, major coaching changes, shuffling in the ranks... Now is the time to go for it and I'm thrilled to see an American woman really going for it this time around.