U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

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Well, one lesson we can gleam from “from Rondo to Salome in 6 short months!” Is that one needn’t switch coach or choreographer in order to have a transformation.

It’s hard to say for Bradie as I don’t know how exactly a grown woman ended up with a Disney princess lp at the Olys in the first place. Even kwan’s teen-rondo was more adult than Cindy to begin with.
 
This is what in RECENT years Canada has done differently from US.
Removed Juvenile from Nationals
There are no jump restrictions on any competitive event. ( in Canada, Juvenile and pre juvenile can try triples)
To get a jump bonus, you must fully rotate the jump
Removed fall deduction at the lower levels
Changed qualifying structure. Pre- novice stops at Challenge. Novice and above, everyone ( who qualified through sectionals) competes at Challenge. The top skaters from across the country qualify for Nationals
Shin called at a summer competition. He didn't stand out as all Canadian callers are very stringent with their calls especially at summer competition. US has special more lenient calling rules for their lower levels, Canada does not.
 
Wait, are you saying that USFS should try to model after Canada's program? Because Canadian ladies skating is a complete desert after Osmond and Daleman.

USFS has already reduced fall deductions, allowed for more difficult jumps at lower levels and gives bonuses for those jumps.

Also, please point me to where it says that "US has special more lenient calling rules for their lower levels". I have never heard of such a thing. A cheated jump is a cheated jump.
 
Indeed. Canada has no depth at all compared to the US in the lower levels. What it does do exceedingly well is the way it manages to groom its very elite skaters into success stories, at a much higher rate than USFS. It’s remarkable especially given its lack of depth in all fields. That it can win the team gold and consistently beat the US at the olympics! It’s mind boggling how well it manages to make the most of its most talented skaters!
 
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mackiecat said:
This is what in RECENT years Canada has done differently from US.
Removed Juvenile from Nationals
There are no jump restrictions on any competitive event. ( in Canada, Juvenile and pre juvenile can try triples)
To get a jump bonus, you must fully rotate the jump
Removed fall deduction at the lower levels
Changed qualifying structure. Pre- novice stops at Challenge. Novice and above, everyone ( who qualified through sectionals) competes at Challenge. The top skaters from across the country qualify for Nationals
Shin called at a summer competition. He didn't stand out as all Canadian callers are very stringent with their calls especially at summer competition. US has special more lenient calling rules for their lower levels, Canada does not.
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That’s nice, but on the junior level Canada ladies aren’t standing out. How long has this program been put into play?
 
feraina said:
Indeed. Canada has no depth at all compared to the US. What it does do exceedingly well is the way it manages to groom its very elite skaters into success stories, at a much higher rate than USFS. It’s remarkable especially given its lack of depth in all fields. That it can win the team gold and consistently beat the US at the olympics! It’s mind boggling how well it manages to make the most of its most talented skaters!
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And by most talented skaters you mean...? Only Gabby, Kaetlyn, and Joanie stand out in my head. And it took a long time before Kaetlyn and Gabby made a mark. I don’t think the Canada system is a good model to use just because they have a few good skaters. The Japanese and Russian models are far more successful at turning out more successful skaters.
 
NAOTMAA said:
I'm sure now that Bradie is national champion and the highest finishing US lady at Olympics and worlds she's getting tons of private feedback from international judges and the USFA to help improve her skating so I have no doubt over the off season her team will have a lot to consider. Hopefully it will be good advice and not something silly or stupid.

Maybe she could work with Rudy Galindo. He did Polina's beautiful Moonlight Sonata SP and her most recent SP/LP which I thought were wonderful as well. He seemed to be successful in helping a coltish girl develop some grace over a couple of seasons. They both happen to be 5'6 as well so he'll know how to get those long limbs moving properly :D
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I’m not sure about the Galindo, Tennell suggestion… I do think his work with Polina was good, but as Jenny Kirk once mentioned, Polina has a tendency to skate small or kind of tucked in considering her height and long limbs. I agreed with that assessment at the time and had always hoped to see Polina extend and use her height and reach much more than she did/does.

When you see Carolina Kostner skating in person, she covers every square inch of the ice rink. She is an imposing and striking presence on the ice. Carolina has learned how to take full advantage of being a taller skater, etc. and that is what I hope to see Bradie continue to do. I wouldn't want Bradie to become insecure or hesitant for any reason to also take full advantage of the height, stretch, etc. that she (naturally) has, too. I'm not suggesting that Bradie is doing this, of course, but she should definitely emphasize and utilize her gift of height, etc. in a compelling, statement-making way, imo.

Also, I can easily envision Bradie skating to an edgier piece of music in at least one of her programs next season, steer away from the ballads, maybe? Actually, I am waiting for someone to say she should put on a unitard, a b*tch face and just go for it! :saint: Anyone??

Or, maybe someone already has and I've missed it! :inavoid:
 
vesperholly said:
Wait, are you saying that USFS should try to model after Canada's program? Because Canadian ladies skating is a complete desert after Osmond and Daleman.

USFS has already reduced fall deductions, allowed for more difficult jumps at lower levels and gives bonuses for those jumps.

Also, please point me to where it says that "US has special more lenient calling rules for their lower levels". I have never heard of such a thing. A cheated jump is a cheated jump.
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The criteria for calling jumps rotations and edges are the same at the lower levels, but there are more lenient rules for calling spins. Skaters at Juvenile and Intermediate can get the 8 revolution feature more than once, in Juvenile skaters can still get value on a camel or sit spin if they don't achieve the true definition of the position for 3 revolutions, etc. Below Juvenile, when IJS is used, the spin rules are even more lenient. @mackiecat, are the spin rules in Canada the same as the international rules all the way down to the very lowest levels?
 
I’m such a broken record but US coaches need go figure out a way to make skating parents understand that their child needs to develop the speed, power, and skating skills to compete with the World’s best. That’s where we are really lacking. I think the rest will sort itself off if much more of our skaters had much better foundations to work from and thus simply feel a lot more confident in going for and landing their jumps and can actually rely on that technique even when things are not optimal.

Honestly, packaging is for our enjoyment and for the judges to give a skater the benefit of the doubt in a close competition, but Bradie would be more successful even if she skated to T/M’s edit and choreography (or lack thereof) for Candyman if she had competitive skating skills and abilities of a Wakaba/Osmond/Zagitova. There’s a world of difference between our top skaters and Japan/Russia/Gabby/Kaetlyn/even South Korea looking at the juniors when it comes to pure ability of the blade and it’s very glaring. We are behind by a long way in skill and that is what truly matters.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
I’m such a broken record but US coaches need go figure out a way to make skating parents understand that their child needs to develop the speed, power, and skating skills to compete with the World’s best. That’s where we are really lacking. I think the rest will sort itself off if much more of our skaters had much better foundations to work from and thus simply feel a lot more confident in going for and landing their jumps and can actually rely on that technique even when things are not optimal.

Honestly, packaging is for our enjoyment and for the judges to give a skater the benefit of the doubt in a close competition, but Bradie would be more successful even if she skated to T/M’s edit and choreography (or lack thereof) for Candyman if she had competitive skating skills and abilities of a Wakaba/Osmond/Zagitova. There’s a world of difference between our top skaters and Japan/Russia/Gabby/Kaetlyn/even South Korea looking at the juniors when it comes to pure ability of the blade and it’s very glaring. We are behind by a long way in skill and that is what truly matters.
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The ladies with the best skating skills didn’t have the jumps. Edges and speed are critical for success, but cannot make up for poor jumping technique. We struggle with underrotations and inconsistency due to poor competitive skills. That where we need to put focus.
 
vesperholly said:
Bradie's packaging was actually a lot better last year. Music, dress, hair all pretty great.

SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imTBfVoyIjc
FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pHNFZRIG-o

Her original Cinderella dress from last summer was also nicer than the one she wore most of the season with the badly matched illusion sleeves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRi9k-25X4c
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Thanks for posting that. Those programs were lovely. I am not sure why she decided to skate to Cinderella lol. I think the ballet version would have been better instead of the live action movie version she used.
 
Frida80 said:
The ladies with the best skating skills didn’t have the jumps. Edges and speed are critical for success, but cannot make up for poor jumping technique. We struggle with underrotations and inconsistency due to poor competitive skills. That where we need to put focus.
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I think it all goes together. I don’t just mean only work on our speed and power but also our jump technique. Bradie lands clean jumps but her scores are very so-so. I think it will all benefit the skaters and you can’t just concentrate on one thing. Good jump technique without better skating skills and developing power can also lead to inconsistency and low GOE. I think with more power and speed and better technique skaters wouldn’t be hoping for lenient callers like we are embarrassingly relying on now. Even the top U.S. skaters in speed and skating skills aren’t as good as the others and other skaters don’t feel the need to be absolutely perfect in order to get respectable scores and placements while the American skaters have to be just to get a chance to be in the upper middle top ten.

I think a lot of the American ladies confidence issues affect their competitive mindset and they lack confidence because I bet their practices at home are just as inconsistent as their competitive skates and they don’t feel confident in their abilities and they get hung up on UR problems, jump technique issues (edge calls, inconsistency), and previous low placements and scores.
 
Juvenile and below spins are only called at base but the standard for calling a correct position is the same as Sr. in fact for our lowest skaters star 1-4, ( basic skills in US) a spin is not called at bronze or above if a proper position is not attained. The same with jumps.

Skate Canada has a long term athlete model. Its goals are not to produce the " only last one or two season" teen age female skater.

For depth check out pre- novice ladies in Ontario. Of the top 35 women, only 4 were no credited with a fully rotated double axel

Quebec was top 41.
 
Some American ladies do have very strong skating skills. Courtney Hicks and Angela Wang come to mind. I am not as familiar with the U.S. junior ladies, but I remember being pretty impressed with Pooja's skating skills at Nationals. Definitely, they weren't a weakness. I have seen some novice ladies with good skating skills (e.g., Dayoon Chang).

In general I have to agree that skating skills aren't a big strong point with U.S. ladies compared to Japanese or Canadian skaters, but to assert flat-out that we basically are lousy in that area also seems like a bit of an overstatement.

ETA: Although maybe I'm just feeling defensive. :D
 
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I think the thing is that neither the US nor Canada have a model for producing young jumping beans any more. Both countries bank on experience and long-term development. Even with Ting Cui, I don't think the US or Canada will ever have a stable of teenage wonders like Russia. And honestly, I like that better. Mature skaters with great skating skills and performance ability are so much nicer to watch than a flailing teenager.
The problem with this is that the judging system favors the flailing teenager to the mature, seasoned skater because it favors jumps above all else.

VIETgrlTerifa said:
I’m such a broken record but US coaches need go figure out a way to make skating parents understand that their child needs to develop the speed, power, and skating skills to compete with the World’s best. That’s where we are really lacking. I think the rest will sort itself off if much more of our skaters had much better foundations to work from and thus simply feel a lot more confident in going for and landing their jumps and can actually rely on that technique even when things are not optimal.
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Well, when the Russian ladies are getting rewarded for strong skating skills when they have awful skating skills, I can see why parents don't care to have their skaters learn that...
On the other hand, some parents are increasingly having their skaters take solo dance tests to improve skating skills. I think it's easier to do now because solo dance exists and because solo dance competitions happen during the freestyle off-season, making it easier for freestyle skaters to have time to train those dances.
I think one thing in Canada that contributes to skating skills is the strong tradition of teaching edges. I've noticed here that while we teach basic edges well enough to pass MITF tests, few here know the extensive edge exercises done in Canada (I think they're called Annie's Edges?). As a US skater, I only learned them because I had a coach who skated in Canada for a couple years. Some coaches in Michigan know the name, but don't know the exercises, and here on the West Coast few even know the name. In private lessons in the US skaters are taught jumps and spins along with the minimum to pass MITF tests. There's no edge or stroking exercises included unless you have a skating skills/dance coach on your team.
 
Weve3 said:
Also, I can easily envision Bradie skating to an edgier piece of music in at least one of her programs next season, steer away from the ballads, maybe? Actually, I am waiting for someone to say she should put on a unitard, a b*tch face and just go for it! :saint: Anyone??
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Send Bradie to Shae-Lynn or Mark Pillay, or wait, what about the guy who did black swan for Ashley, darn, why is his name escaping me! He seems like a full package kind of guy. Could be good for Bradie.
 
One thing Russians are able to do is control the difficult entrances and exits out of their jumps and hit those level 4s by showing strong edges when it counts even if they don't show it overall in their skating and programs. I can't say the same for our top American women right now. They don't really skate with the same control over their edges even if they may have good flow and edges overall. Karen Chen is an incredibly fast skater who has big jumps (but slow rotation) and is probably one of our strongest when it comes to basics but I can't say she really displays deep edge work or has footwork that shows off her skating skills (they seem a bit shallow to me).
 
Re difference between Canadian and US skating (and thus results). Just my observation and not facts. In Canada the sport of Figure Skating is (relatively) more of a National Sport and much more popular as a recreation activity than in USA. Canada also seems to have a figure skating "system" for skaters to follow from the young age, while in USA a skater and coach have to create their own "system" at their own discretion. Given today's difficulty levels in singles, this sport requires a "system". (imo).
 
mag said:
Send Bradie to Shae-Lynn or Mark Pillay, or wait, what about the guy who did black swan for Ashley, darn, why is his name escaping me! He seems like a full package kind of guy. Could be good for Bradie.
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Yes, agreed. Shae-Lynn, Mark or Phillip, all three could potentially tap into Bradie's personality. As long as Bradie can stay as consistent as she is, she will be a dream to work with. USFS would be wise to capitalize on this. The sooner the better!
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
...Good jump technique without better skating skills and developing power can also lead to inconsistency and low GOE. I think with more power and speed and better technique skaters wouldn’t be hoping for lenient callers like we are embarrassingly relying on now.
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yet Tom Z is a top coach with usfs. Go figure.
 
I don't think Ashley Wagner's decision not to go to Worlds had anything to do with the identity of the technical caller. I don't think she was ever going to Worlds this season. Her goal was a 2nd Olympics, it didn't happen because she didn't produce her best skating at US Nationals, and struggled all season, and she shut things down after that. Assuming she made the Olympics I think she'd have withdrawn from Worlds, and would be doing a media tour with Adam Rippon.
 
Okay, PSA, just so we can stop going over this:

Bradie loves Cinderella. Both the story and the movie. She has said this in more than one interview. SHE is the one who wanted to skate to it (the federation advised against it, but she and her team insisted). This program & theme was 100% her choice. And love it or hate it, it took her to a National title, the Olympics, and 6th place at Worlds. Whatever works, ya know?? :biggrinbo
 
Seriously! How many more young women do we want to see be consumed by the US #1 Lady figure skating machine? Caroline Zhang was built up to impossible heights then had to spend her teenage years dealing with the feeling of being a failure when she never should have been rated that highly to begin with. It took Mirai years to recover. Jenny Kirk never made it. Gracie Gold had to retire too soon and paid a high personal price.

Let Bradie be Bradie. Forcing a young adult to be someone else while simultaneously coping with immense scrutiny is like cutting off Samson's hair right before a feats of strength test.
 
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