Should Medvedeva have won the Olympics ?

[Bigbird]

Well I seriously feel that no one should appear on an Olympic podioum or World's podium with those horrid half tights over the skates. Med figured it out....Alina should...She looked so outclassed by Med and Kaitlyn on the podium. It does really make a difference....

Seriously? Outclassed by half tights over skates? What I cannot understand is why so many persons need to vilify a 15-year-old for the talents she possesses. She is not Surya Bonaly. She is not Evgeny Medvedeva. She has her own unique style. She was a lot rougher around the edges when she just started but she has worked hard and smoothed out her skating very nicely. I cannot imagine how hard she has worked for her to get to this point. What is sadder though than this thread, however, is just this deep-seated feeling that Eteri, somehow is wary of the girl and would have much preferred it if Medvedeva had won. For that reason, and others I hope Zagitova majorly, for her entire, brightly lit career, may puberty be kind, and may Trusova, need at least another four years to come into her own. How ironic would it be if at the next OGs Zagitova is upstaged by Trusova or some other young upstart? Let the girl enjoy her gold today, the career of a Russian singles skater can be brief.

 

[Kasey]

I love Medvedeva, and would have much preferred her as our Olympic gold medalist; but in response to the topic question, no. Zagitova beat her fair and square playing by the current rules, and helped by the ongoing misuse of PCS.

 

[tony]

If you feel Med isn't getting the proper score, I suggest you train to become a judge and give her scores you feel are just. You offer no insight as to why Med lower score or edge calls that she's never given. I see plenty of ones on her scores and she wasn't showered with all 10's so your theory does really pan out.

How about you buy a season pass or if you already have one, head over to the Olympics forum ladies LP thread where I discussed element by element where I believe Medvedeva was getting a GOE boost— keywords being I believe. Then we can talk about my insights.

 

[moebius]

I'm just surprised that a skater who just entered the senior ranks (Zagitova) already has high PCS. Is her artistry really up to par with Med and other seasoned skaters? Usually skaters in their 1st senior year get low PCS. Even a perfect skate from Bradie Tennell has low PCS compared to a more seasoned skater.

 

[lala]

Osmond should have won!!!!

LOL!

 

[lala]

Not sure as I think Osmond has a good case to having won the gold honestly, although I admit that could be my Canadian bias. Still I think Osmond was heavily underscored relative to BOTH Russians. She has bigger and better quality jumps than both, and in many ways better artistry, particularly than Zagitova, and a lot more speed than both too. Yet none of this was reflected in the scores. Her spins are weaker than both Russians, and she is a bit less polished than Medvedeva, so it isnt clear but she should have been fighting for gold with Medvedeva.

I don't think she was great as a Swan. Don't think she was too artistry.

 

[judgejudy27]

Well frankly I thought Zagitova as a Swan in the short was pretty awful in that role. Her Don Quixote was much better artistically than her short. Yet oddly it was her short that got the higher or atleast equal PCS. My biggest objection with her win is the vastly inflated PCS in the short. The long they were inflated too, but not as much as her long actualy was quite artistic but her short not really much at all, and you can argue various aspects of the scoring of Med, Zag (and even Osmond to a lesser degree) but the biggest place any of them was overscored was Zagitovas PCS for her frenetic and messy looking (apart from the mostly well done elements) short program.

 

[judgejudy27]

I agree with Shady that in reality Medvedeva lost the Olympic Gold medal with her injury. I am sure she is never injured and Medvedeva scores much lower with much lower PCS and slightly lower GOE even for the exact same skates and conversely Medvedeva scored even a bit hgiher for the exact same skates. The Russian fed. probably wanted to cover themselves in case Medvedeva didnt make it back for the Games or did not make it back in gold medal form, so promoted Zagitova as their #1 and continued to do so even when Medvedeva returned near her best. It is strange, but it is what ended up happening. Anyone who even thinks otherwise or doesnt see this fairly obviously being what played out (regardless how they think Medvedeva and Zagitova should score relative to each other) is quite delusional.

 

[Japanfan]

I realize that people find something wonderful about Evgenia with her huge brown eyes and baby doll face with malleable expressions. She seems very soulful and dreamy in interviews, and she has grace and nice lines. However, I personally do not see much comparison with Michelle Kwan who had excellent jump technique, cleaner edges, the best arms in the business, and authentic presentation skills that came from her heart.

I find myself reflecting on Kwan as of late and thinking that she was in a league of her own - one that remains to this day and probably will for a long time.

I was not a fan at the time, mostly because the commentators hyped her too much. But in restrospect I appreciate her much more than I did at the time. Her musicality was expcectional. I've been told that watching Kwan skate was a spiritual experience for some fans, and while it was not for me, I still understand it.

And as of late, I find myself wishing a lady skater who do a spiral like Kwan did. Even moreso, like Sasha Cohen did. I got so sick of Sasha's spirals because the commentators gushed about them endlessly, and showed slow-mo replays of them time and time again.

But it really was a thing of beauty. I guess skaters aren't doing spirals like that because COP doesn't reward them? If, so I'd like the rules to be revised to reward a beautiful spiral sequence. However, I wouldn't like to see a mandatory spiral sequence required again. The last time that happened all the ladies did their three spiral positions and it got real boring, real fast.

 

[paskatefan]

So...who is going to write to the ISU and state their observations (as neutrally as possible without criticizing individual skaters)? Let's all speak up. Changes need to be made or figure skating will spiral down to a jump-fest, which I find particularly boring.
On this page (don't click the figure skating tab), scroll all the way down to Contact Us. https://www.isu.org/

Thanks a bunch, DreamSkates! I gave the ISU an earful (I just can't stand extreme backloading) & I am so tired of the "tano" hand over the head for just about every jump in order to get more points (aesthetically not pleasing & boring when overdone, IMHO).

 

[judgejudy27]

@Japanfan when IJS first came out Sasha was easily getting top level and huge GOE on her spiral but the rules of the spiral kept changing for awhile so I dont know if that would have continued. The only obvious thing is if a spiral like Kwan or Cohen doesnt get very high scores under the current system, then something is wrong with it (not that we dont already know there is a ton wrong with how certain elements are scored and their demands under the system).

 

[becca]

I think in subjective sport if you want to win you got to do a knock out. Alina has a technical advantage including a true lutz. Both worthy winners.

I think it is fair to point out that the silver medalist has handled her loss with class and dignity.

 

[judgejudy27]

I think one pattern we are seeing with the judges and as skating fans we need to get used to is in the Olympics, in singles disciplines that is, the judges have already decided they automatically want the skater attempting the highest base value in the LP to win. And they will do whatever neccessary to ensure that happening, be that through inflated short program scoring (even if the skater doesnt have the highest base value in the short program too), inflated GOE and inflated PCS. That is what they were planning to do with Chen based on the LP scoring (granted I do think he definitely deserved to win the LP, but probably not an almost 220 with a mistake and skating so early, and his inferior PCS and some other things), and it seems in retrospect Chen is definitely the one the judges had pencilled in as the mens OGM due to his higher LP base value had he not badly screwed up. Based on Sotnikova's controversial 2014 win, which again had all the items- inflated short program score (despite unlike the LP not doing the highest difficulty but the judges knew her LP to come had the highest so dictated how they scored her short), inflated GOE, and inflated PCS. Based on Zagitova here and all the same things, particularly the inflated SP score part when the SP was in fact her much weaker program. And while it isnt talked about much even based on Hanyu and his mysteriously fast PCS rise in the 2013-2014 season. And yes I know you can point out variables relating to those, like I still highly doubt Sotnikova winning in 2014 had it not been in Russia, despite her fitting that common theme, but in general I still think these examples are just the start. And each future Olympics we should expect the man or women attempting the highest base value of the top 8 contenders or so in the LP to be the certain winner unless they mess up. As the judges have shown the trend already starting the last couple Olympics this is clearly what they want, irrespective of anything else.

And all up and coming skaters and prospective future contenders should take not. Make sure to have the highest planned base value of the contenders in the LP and the gold is yours to lose at the Olympics, whether you happen to really be the best overall skater or not.

 

[Simone411]

Thanks a bunch, DreamSkates! I gave the ISU an earful (I just can't stand extreme backloading) & I am so tired of the "tano" hand over the head for just about every jump in order to get more points (aesthetically not pleasing & boring when overdone, IMHO).

This was what I was trying to remember ... the tano jumps. Those jumps should be limited. They're not as complete as a regular jump. A skater attains more height with the regular jumps. The tano jumps are also a distraction because the arms are being noticed more than the actual jump. That's basicly what is noticed and the fact that some of those arm positions are sloppy.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Seriously? Outclassed by half tights over skates? What I cannot understand is why so many persons need to vilify a 15-year-old for the talents she possesses. She is not Surya Bonaly. She is not Evgeny Medvedeva. She has her own unique style. She was a lot rougher around the edges when she just started but she has worked hard and smoothed out her skating very nicely. I cannot imagine how hard she has worked for her to get to this point. What is sadder though than this thread, however, is just this deep-seated feeling that Eteri, somehow is wary of the girl and would have much preferred it if Medvedeva had won. For that reason, and others I hope Zagitova majorly, for her entire, brightly lit career, may puberty be kind, and may Trusova, need at least another four years to come into her own. How ironic would it be if at the next OGs Zagitova is upstaged by Trusova or some other young upstart? Let the girl enjoy her gold today, the career of a Russian singles skater can be brief.

You have some nice sentiments in this post, but the faux outrage at people believing Eteri would rather see Medvedeva win is comical. Stevie Wonder just called me and told me he could see it all over her face. Everyone could.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

I think one pattern we are seeing with the judges and as skating fans we need to get used to is in the Olympics, in singles disciplines that is, the judges have already decided they automatically want the skater attempting the highest base value in the LP to win.

This isn't necessarily true. It's because the Russians generally have the highest base values. If they didn't, there would be some other criteria used to decide the winner.

 

[Rock2]

I love Medvedeva, and would have much preferred her as our Olympic gold medalist; but in response to the topic question, no. Zagitova beat her fair and square playing by the current rules, and helped by the ongoing misuse of PCS.

Then I would say Zag won via missapplication of the current rules. That doesn't sound like fair and square to me.

If by rules you mean back half loaded and the resulting bonus, that's only a few extra points in TES given Med does a fair bit in the second half. Overshaddowed by the extra 8-10 she got in PCS and didn't really merit.

I would have had Med, Osmond and Miyahara on the podium. Zag 4th. That, assuming GoE and PCS are both properly evaluated and applied.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Is Alina going to change her exhibition for the gala? That routine and outfit are wholly age inappropriate.

The Olympic ice setting wouldn't even be appropriate for a woman, let alone a 15 year old girl.

 

[Willin]

@ToFarAwayTimes She's skating to "Afro Blue" by Jazzmeia Horn. Is that the same one? I really have no desire to see it again - it was straight up uncomfortable...

Javi is doing his work out routine, so that will be my reason to tune in.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

@ToFarAwayTimes She's skating to "Afro Blue" by Jazzmeia Horn. Is that the same one? I really have no desire to see it again - it was straight up uncomfortable...

Javi is doing his work out routine, so that will be my reason to tune in.

Since you used the world "uncomfortable" I believe it must be the same one. Or at least I hope it is. I hope she doesn't have multiple "uncomfortable" programs. What the hell is wrong with her handlers?

 

[Willin]

@ToFarAwayTimes The way they dress Alina is just bizarre for her age. There was that Vogue shoot where she wasn't wearing pants - but the older girls were covered up, the tight catsuit she wears for the galas, the fact that the tutus show off her butt quite a bit... And this pose is so gross when you realize she's 15. The whole beginning choreography of that program is gross.

They let Medvedeva skate to Sailor Moon and other cute stuff - why not Alina?

 

[hanca]

Then I would say Zag won via missapplication of the current rules. That doesn't sound like fair and square to me.

If by rules you mean back half loaded and the resulting bonus, that's only a few extra points in TES given Med does a fair bit in the second half. Overshaddowed by the extra 8-10 she got in PCS and didn't really merit.

I would have had Med, Osmond and Miyahara on the podium. Zag 4th. That, assuming GoE and PCS are both properly evaluated and applied.

Missaplication of the rules? And Lysacek won over Pluschenko by clever use of the rules?

 

[julieann]

How about you buy a season pass or if you already have one, head over to the Olympics forum ladies LP thread where I discussed element by element where I believe Medvedeva was getting a GOE boost— keywords being I believe. Then we can talk about my insights.

No thanks, I already saw them over there, I didn't see much insight. As I already said ad nauseam, if you feel skaters are being judged unfairly, feel free to become a judge and not just play one on a message board.

You're entitled to your opinion as is everyone else.

 

[tony]

No thanks, I already saw them over there, I didn't see much insight. As I already said ad nauseam, if you feel skaters are being judged unfairly, feel free to become a judge and not just play one on a message board.

You're entitled to your opinion as is everyone else.

I was addressing the question asked in the thread and tried to offer some insight to my answer rather than just saying yes or no. And you didn’t like it.

 

[bardtoob]

Oooo! Ooo! . . . I know who to blame for Medvedeva losing! THE JUDGES FROM SOCHI

How? When the judges in Sochi artificially inflated PCS towards 10, they pushed PCS towards the ceiling such that it made it impossible to differentiate top skater based on PCS.

I do not think anybody can argue that Medvedeva's technical content was more difficult than Zagitova's because it wasn't, so what set Medvedeva apart was PCS. However, Medvedeva's PCS were:

Skating Skills: 9.57
Transition: 9.43
Performance: 9.82
Composition: 9.71
Interpretation: 9.89

For an average PCS of 9.68 for a total of 77.47.

Well, Medvedeva lost overall by 1.31, and even if she averaged 9.75 (out of 10) on every single category then she still would have only gotten an additional 0.53 points.

Medvedeva would have needed to score 9.85 on every single PCS category to overtake Zagitova.
( 9.84 x 5 x 1.60 = 78.72, 78.72 - 77.47 = 1.25 - not enough!)
( 9.85 x 5 x 1.60 = 78.80, 78.80 - 77.47 = 1.33 - ENOUGH!)

To get past the threshold of 9.85 in one category five (5) judges would have to give a skater 9.75 while the other four (4) judges would have to give a skater 10.00. THOSE ARE RIDICULOUS SCORES. CAN YOU IMAGINE:

Skating Skills: 10.00 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 - 9.86
Transition: 10.00 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 - 9.86
Performance: 10.00 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 - 9.86
Composition: 10.00 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 - 9.86
Interpretation: 10.00 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 9.75 9.75 10.00 - 9.86

However, this gap could have been easily bridged if the scores were of the pre-Sochi range, so Zagitova would have gotten PCS in the 8s while Medvedeva would have gotten PCS in the 9s.

In conclusion, the judges from Sochi screwed up the IJS, Speedy was too prideful to correct it, and Medvedeva lost the OGM to Zagitova.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

@bardtoob

The judges from Sochi cheated Yuna out of the gold medal.

The judges from Pyeongchang cheated Evgenia out of a gold medal. Or maybe they cheated Kaetlyn out of a gold medal.

But the ISU has cheated us all!

 

[briancoogaert]

I don't know who should have won overall since I think judges didn't put the marks skaters deserved.
Medvedeva's jumps are questionnable and they all received +GOE (massive).
Zagitova skates with no speed at all (especially the step sequences) and she received amazingly high PCS for her level.
Osmond had better jumps and speed than both but didn't get better marks for that. Anyway, she made mistakes.
Miyahara has the best glide and choreo and she didn't get the best marks for that. Anyway, she has poor jumps.
Honestly this new judging system is not used properly.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Like I said before, Evgenia got beat at her own game. Inflated PCS to the max so her tech content can't lose to Japan, U.S., Canadian skaters. Oops. Alina beat her fair and square. But the judging is a sham. Just look at the protocols.

Skating Skills
Medvedeva: 9.57
Osmond: 9.50
Kostner: 9.46
Zagitova: 9.32
Miyahara: 8.93
Sakamoto: 8.57

First of all, Sakamoto isn't just a stronger skater than everyone else on this list except Kostner, she is much stronger. Yet there she is, at the bottom of the list. Medvedeva higher than Osmond and Kostner?....Haha. And Zagitova is a mediocre skater, if that. This is what they did to Yuna in the components four years ago, the same thing they did to Evgenia here. They put the higher technical BV juuuuuuust barely behind in the components categories so they can say the one is better than the other, but the difference is minimal and therefore doesn't affect the final results.

There should be a significant difference between Medvedeva and Zagitova in SS score. But then again, there should be a significant gap between her and Kostner, Sakamoto, and Osmond.

These components scores are a sham. They are inflated placeholders meant to maintain and disguise ordinal judging. Until figure skating fixes this problem, the artistry will continue to disappear, and so will the fans, the ratings, and the money.

 

[bardtoob]

Medvedeva's jumps are questionnable and they all received +GOE (massive).

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...l-all-be-zagitova.103464/page-76#post-5312804

 

[MAXSwagg]

Frankly, I had Osmond winning just barely over Satoko (had her leading in the SP), with Zagitova in third. I had Med in fourth (sorry Med).