Should Medvedeva have won the Olympics ?

[AxelAnnie]

yep!

 

[kwanatic]

@kwanatic, just curious which 3 competitions are you referring to that in your opinion Zagitova undeservedly won. By your comments it is clear you, like most, are counting the Olympics as one of those. I am going to take a guess the win over Higuchi in China was another. So if I am right on that, which was the 3rd? I did think she deserved the European title, Medvedeva messed up the short there, and she wasnt totally sharp yet, and Zagitova skated better in the LP atleast than at the Olympics here IMO. Even if her PCS was again comical, I think she had enough in hand there to win.

Yes, Cup of China is one. I felt Higuchi thoroughly outskated Alina in China. She was phenomenal in that competition and while I agreed Alina deserved the edge technically, Higuchi should have stomped her in PCS with that performance. Olympics is number two. I felt that given the fact that Evgenia and Kaetlyn's programs were more balanced, the gold should have been between the two of them. Alina's PCS by comparison are just too damned high.

The third time is actually the first time it happened: 2017 junior worlds. Alina beat out Marin Honda. Again, it was a case amazing jumps and clever manipulation versus a complete package. Honda was technically strong (7 triples, clean) and vastly superior artistically. Her program was stunning, her delivery was beautiful and nuanced. Zagitova used the same program she recycled for this season to the same effect and won. I felt as if the judges rewarded Zagitova for her technical abilities but didn't reward Honda for her artistic abilities. She had a slight edge over Zagitova in PCS (a few tenths) when it should have been several points based on what they delivered.

 

[julieann]

How so? Medvedeva was showered with huge GOE. I suspect this happened because the judges really did want her to win. But in no world are her (f)Lutz or Axels 'good' jumps, let alone the +2's and +3's she got. Her 3F+3T was a little nervy, too. I love Evgenia and much prefer her to Zagitova, but it's not as if she's way far ahead of her in any aspect. Osmond, on the other hand, landed five of her seven jumping passes about as perfectly, and by ISU definition, +3-worthy as you're ever going to see. Her program was also just as, if not more, complete and she's a quality skater.

Check the protocols. Medvedeva's GOE's for many of her jumping passes cannot be explained other than the judges giving her a shot to still win the title. In a more correct scoring world, Osmond (easily) beats her in the LP.

Well I disagree or Osmond would've been beating her for the past two years.

Osmond did great last night but she made a mathematical error but not arranging her program correctly like Zagitova and screwing up her lutz. She was only 4.5 points back in the fs and that made the difference. She could've easily beat them both last night but she didn't. Anyone could have beaten Med in the last two years but one one did. Zagitova beat her in sp and that's why she won gold. Maybe Med will make a change for worlds, Maybe Osmond will as well.

 

[tony]

Well I disagree or Osmond would've been beating her for the past two years.

Osmond did great last night but she made a mathematical error but not arranging her program correctly like Zagitova and screwing up her lutz. She was only 4.5 points back in the fs and that made the difference. She could've easily beat them both last night but she didn't. Anyone could have beaten Med in the last two years but one one did. Zagitova beat her in sp and that's why she won gold. Maybe Med will make a change for worlds, Maybe Osmond will as well.

You've offered absolutely no insight. 'Correctly' arranging a program? It was a well-balanced program with four of the seven jump elements coming after the half-way point, and it works for her. The elements she did do cleanly (every single one of them besides the Lutz) were of top quality.

Now, tell me where Medvedeva deserves the high GOE's for the majority of her jumping passes.

 

[julieann]

You've offered absolutely no insight. 'Correctly' arranging a program? It was a well-balanced program with four of the seven jump elements coming after the half-way point, and it works for her. The elements she did do cleanly (every single one of them besides the Lutz) were of top quality.

Now, tell me where Medvedeva deserves the high GOE's for the majority of her jumping passes.

You're right, unlike Zagitova, Osmond had a "well balanced" program, for just enough points to earn her a bronze medal.

She was GIVEN a 10.00 from the same judge who ALSO gave her a -2...was that FAIR? I think not.

You think Med was not given the proper score because you don't like her skating, it's obvious...we disagree.

I'm not going to get you to change your mind. Her jumps here scored just as well as Osmonds. She had difficult entries and although she overuses the arms over the head, they are difficult and she does them well. If Osmond had not messed up her lutz and moved her lutz to the middle, she probably would have been at 155 or 156 and maybe would've won the free. That missed jump cost her a lot. If she's not a strong enough skater to handle that tough of a program, she only good enough for bronze and that's ok.

If you feel Med isn't getting the proper score, I suggest you train to become a judge and give her scores you feel are just. You offer no insight as to why Med lower score or edge calls that she's never given. I see plenty of ones on her scores and she wasn't showered with all 10's so your theory does really pan out.

 

[Bigbird]

No. If she had the skating skills and presence as Kostner and with her technical content I would say yes. But both girls are still young and more interesting struggles may lie ahead for both. As for now, I appreciate the way it ended.

 

[KimGOAT]

Tony Wheeler is biased as feck. He has no objectivity when it comes to either skaters he worships like Zagitova, Michelle Kwan, Osmond, Slutskaya, etc...and skaters he dislikes such as Butyrskaya, Medvedeva, Chen. Dont even try to reason with him, you will get nowhere no matter how accurate your reasoning is. He enjoys the fantasy bubble/world he lives in regarding his faves and anti faves.

If the judges really "wanted Medvedeva to win" they could have and would have easily marked Medvedeva down to a 76-78 in the short program which they could have done with absolutely ZERO controversy or complaints from anyone, when even her cleanish short programs earlier in the year were sometimes getting 74-76, and when marking her atleast as low as 34-35 in PCS (which is still inflated for that) would be incredibly easy and again create not the least bit of controversy. Instead they choose to give her a crazy bloated score, and PCS even more bloated vs quality than her long program and a borderline shocking 83ish score. So quite obviously the judges did not "want Medvedeva to win".

I love Osmond and do think she should have been closer to both Russians, particularly Zagitova, but there are valid arguments for where she fell short to both too. Her short program was more undermarked than her long, her long unfortunately wasnt as smartly arranged, and the lutz mistake hurt her. Still close to a personal best performance in the long for her though, and hopefully something she can build on.

 

[DreamSkates]

Zagitova was lovely, and nobody made Tara wait her turn.

None the less, Evgenia was gorgeous, a worthy Champion through and through, like Michelle.

If you want to blame someone, then blame Eteri for turning out new champions too quickly

Or, as Med stated in the current Ice Network article, she will not have to increase her technical difficulty. I wasn't in her shoes obviously, but it was obvious she needed something more in her long program to overtake Zag. She knew it was coming but made no changes to her program, hoping for the best with PCs. She should have seen that train coming since Zag was getting PC's almost as high as hers.
Hugs to Med and Kudos for Zag. That is all I can say at this point. In other Olympics, the gold medal went to the one with more technical prowess (Lapinski and Baiul for example).

 

[DreamSkates]

I got surprised at how much I love zagitova!!! I started threads hating backloading! But it’s allowed. Hope it’s banned. Don Quixote was great. The shapes of her arm over the head jumps were so striking. I’m pro Zagitova! Something about med jumps looked heavy.

I did like Zag's long program this time more than any other time in the season. She had energy and pop, which Med didn't have - maybe her program didn't express the excitement we expect at the Olympics given the story behind the program.

 

[DreamSkates]

but It wasn't her own game, from her words "its for the judges to evaluate me".

She should have upped her game to one jump/combo with more technical difficulty. That would have made all the difference.

 

[kittyjake5]

She should have upped her game to one jump/combo with more technical difficulty. That would have made all the difference.

Maybe that was her plan before her injury. Being off the ice for 2 months probably had something to do
with that.

 

[DreamSkates]

So...who is going to write to the ISU and state their observations (as neutrally as possible without criticizing individual skaters)? Let's all speak up. Changes need to be made or figure skating will spiral down to a jump-fest, which I find particularly boring.
On this page (don't click the figure skating tab), scroll all the way down to Contact Us. https://www.isu.org/

 

[judgejudy27]

@kwanatic, thanks. So I guess you do agree with me that Medvedeva did deserve her European title this year? I absolutely agree Higuchi was screwed, that was an even more blatant robbery than here (albeit a far less important one, unless it wrecked Higuchi's psyche and was part of her not making her Olympic team). I also agree with you on World Juniors last year, Honda should have won there, albeit a fairly close call. As even with Honda gaining a 3-4 point edge in PCS in the LP which seems about right, it would have still been nip and tuck to who wins. So I would go with those 3 outings as well.

 

[kwanatic]

@kwanatic, thanks. So I guess you do agree with me that Medvedeva did deserve her European title this year?

I think you meant to say Zagitova. If you did, then yes I do agree she deserved to win at Euros this year. Medvedeva was tight and tentative and had nowhere near the ease and flow she usually has. Zagitova was spot on in that competition. Again, the scoring was ridiculous but I do agree with her beating out Medvedeva for gold there.

 

[judgejudy27]

Sorry, yes I meant Zagitova at the Europeans of course.

 

[Areski]

You're right, unlike Zagitova, Osmond had a "well balanced" program, for just enough points to earn her a bronze medal.

She was GIVEN a 10.00 from the same judge who ALSO gave her a -2...was that FAIR? I think not.

You think Med was not given the proper score because you don't like her skating, it's obvious...we disagree.

I'm not going to get you to change your mind. Her jumps here scored just as well as Osmonds. She had difficult entries and although she overuses the arms over the head, they are difficult and she does them well. If Osmond had not messed up her lutz and moved her lutz to the middle, she probably would have been at 155 or 156 and maybe would've won the free. That missed jump cost her a lot. If she's not a strong enough skater to handle that tough of a program, she only good enough for bronze and that's ok.

If you feel Med isn't getting the proper score, I suggest you train to become a judge and give her scores you feel are just. You offer no insight as to why Med lower score or edge calls that she's never given. I see plenty of ones on her scores and she wasn't showered with all 10's so your theory does really pan out.

Evgenia's jumps are muscled, and excessively pre-rotated quite often with not enough flow. Bent arm tano (aka tanocopter) and some transition does not justify the string of +2, +3 that she receives all the time - sometimes even for axel as certain negative qualities should (in fair world) counterbalance them in score sheet. Watching in slow-motion is particularly enlightening in this regard. Osmond has way more positive qualities about her jumps, and unlike what haters say it's not like she has to telegraph full rink to achieve them either - yet in score you unfortunately don't find the distinction.

 

[Vash01]

There’s a very angry article in Russian saying pretty much what @kwanatic said but in a more...erm...direct way. And also that the Russian fed abandoned Med when her foot fractured and invested all the political capital into Zags. That’s when her PCS started climbing into the ridiculous levels and culminated here

I wish i could read that article (preferably the translation by one of our fsu members).

If this is true, how sad that after bringing glory to Russia for 2 plus years, Medvedeva's fed just dropped her. Injured or not, she was still their star. I am amazed by how well she has rebounded after her injury. She has a champion's heart but the only thing she can control is her performance, and she did that. Her fed should have respected her fighting spirit.

It seems her absence from the GPF and RN led to her fed supporting Alina over her.

I would have actually given her the LP win at the Europeans, even though she looked rusty compared to her past performances. The mistake on the 2A was small, and the deficit should have been overcome in the LP. Instead she lost by 4-5 points there, i think.

 

[IceAlisa]

It seems her absence from the GPF and RN led to her fed supporting Alina over her.

That's certainly one of the key points of the article. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to translate it right now.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

Yes, but it was a beautiful skate no matter what.

 

[DreamSkates]

Maybe that was her plan before her injury. Being off the ice for 2 months probably had something to do
with that.

True, but this being the Olympics...one can only wonder.

 

[brennele]

Zagitova was "immensely artistic"? Just when you think you have heard it all. I would say her artistry was on par with maybe Bradie Tennell's, or at a stretch Gabby Daleman (only since Daleman had those falls which dropped her usual artistic standard down as well).

And I dont get this talk of the quality of Zagitova's jumps too. The only good things about her jumps, in fact the only things superior to Medvedeva's jumps which I dont even consider top quality, are that she doesnt flutz and can do a triple lutz-triple loop. Otherwise what is the quality, tiny baby jumps with no height, ugly air positions, often crooked rotation, and poor flow and landing position? Yeah great quality. Her ridiculous GOE are almost as disproportioned as her already noted absolutely absurd PCS.

Kim, when we reach this level of excellence, as is evidenced with both of these ladies, I don't think we can say that one of these two skaters has it all over the other. We are talking about two individuals of such high quality skill, that it really comes down to who we like better. When you judge them objectively, their scores come out very close. Of course, there is nothing wrong with liking one skater better than another, from a true gut perspective. That is what chemistry is all about and chemistry plays a big role in life. . It is interesting that you bring up Daleman. I never saw or heard of her before. I thought she was incredibly beautiful and artisitic - but that is just pure chemistry on my part. It is not based in any objective standard. If I could have chosen a look....and style.... for my youth from any person who performed, it would be 100% Daleman but that is purely subjective preference on my part. There is nothing scientific or objective about it. I though her looks and style were absolutely outstanding but she did not deserve to win by a long shot. Maybe what you are really saying is that Zagitova's overall style and presentation simply does not appeal to you and that is OK. Who is to say what you, personally, should like and prefer? When you judge competitions, however, the choices have to come from a more objective place. The two women are very similar in skill and they are both far superior to the other competitors save perhaps the bronze medal recipient. One could have made a good case for any one of these three people getting the gold.

 

[snoopysnake]

I think Medvedeva should have won, because her PCS should have been much higher than Zagitova's (i.e. Zagitova's should have been much lower than judged.) Zagitova does not seem to be skating; it's more like stringing together elements with no glide or transitions, kind of like Surya Bonaly with twice as many elements.

 

[Meoima]

One thing I am weary of this outcome is that... Zagitova is just 15. Will she be strong enough to handle the crazy attention from the media on her. I hope her family will be wise. I don’t want to witness another Yulia.
Accidentally, they’re both coached by Eteri, and both wore red dress.

 

[Vash01]

I think Medvedeva should have won, because her PCS should have been much higher than Zagitova's (i.e. Zagitova's should have been much lower than judged.) Zagitova does not seem to be skating; it's more like stringing together elements with no glide or transitions, kind of like if Surya Bonaly with twice as many elements.

Bonaly with better edges and better jumps perhaps. I think she does a lot of great jumps, but i don't see a complete program or performance. She is an improved version of Bradie Tennell perhaps. I am sure Bradie will develop. What motivation will Alina have to improve now?

 

[screech]

with no backloading and a step out flutz ??? and yes I know Medvedevas flutz was also not called.

(bolding is mine) - Kaetlyn got a ! for her lutz.

FWIW, I understand Zag winning. What I struggle with is every one of her Composition PCS being in the 9s. That was not a well-balanced program. She definitely has some great qualities to her skating, even aside from the jumps, but to me she still seems 'juniorish' in a lot of ways, and very 'flaily'.

I personally prefer Med to Zag, but last night I found her to seem tentative. I also think she shot herself by moving her 3f/3t to the start of the program, instead of keeping it in the second half. IMO her PCS are deservedly a couple of points higher than Zag.

To me Kaetlyn was the skate of the night. IMO her PCS should have been higher than both (they were higher than Zag). If she hadn't had the turn-out on the lutz, she'd have been about 2-2.5 points higher on TES (depending on GOE). If she'd been marked higher than Med on PCS, or even tied with Med on PCS, she'd possibly have won the FP.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

I think Medvedeva should have won, because her PCS should have been much higher than Zagitova's (i.e. Zagitova's should have been much lower than judged.)

That's true, but then Medevedeva's PCS and GOEs should not be so high compared to the other skaters. There are others who should be earning higher marks than her in some or all of the components, which basically never happened during the last couple of years.

She got beat at her own game.

 

[barbarafan]

People will frame this debate in terms of whether Medvedeva did enough to get the PCS/GOE to catch up to Zagitova's overall total, but the real question is whether Zagitova should have gotten those monstrous PCS in the first place, esp. in the SP, and the answer is of course not.

ITA..but then when Med started winning in seniors she got much larger PCS than deserved. She was also like a raw colt. Med has grown into those PCS as she has worked her butt off on lines, performance and musicality. I now really enjoy her performances.

 

[Areski]

The answer is NO.

 

[shady82]

I am not the biggest Medvedeva fan, but this was one of the most heartbreaking losses for me. She lost the gold simply because of her injury, not giving her the chance to do GPF and Russian Nationals and thus a loss of political advantage. Evgenia is most certainly the most decorated Russian female figure skater (ok, maybe Irina has more Euro titles, but she never had enough dominance or consistency).

Finally I do think Evgenia faces an uphill battle domestically in the coming quad. It seems obvious to me that Alexandra Trusova is being groomed as "Eteri's pet" for the next four years.

The third time is actually the first time it happened: 2017 junior worlds. Alina beat out Marin Honda. Again, it was a case amazing jumps and clever manipulation versus a complete package. Honda was technically strong (7 triples, clean) and vastly superior artistically. Her program was stunning, her delivery was beautiful and nuanced. Zagitova used the same program she recycled for this season to the same effect and won. I felt as if the judges rewarded Zagitova for her technical abilities but didn't reward Honda for her artistic abilities. She had a slight edge over Zagitova in PCS (a few tenths) when it should have been several points based on what they delivered.

Alina has been overmarked so many times (mainly this year) though I think she had a case for gold at Junior Worlds. I vastly preferred Marin as a skater but Alina had more difficult jumps in addition to the backloading, and also better spins. In my opinion either was a worthy winner.

 

[barbarafan]

I think Medvedeva should have won, because her PCS should have been much higher than Zagitova's (i.e. Zagitova's should have been much lower than judged.) Zagitova does not seem to be skating; it's more like stringing together elements with no glide or transitions, kind of like if Surya Bonaly with twice as many elements.

Well I seriously feel that no one should appear on an Olympic podioum or World's podium with those horrid half tights over the skates. Med figured it out....Alina should...She looked so outclassed by Med and Kaitlyn on the podium. It does really make a difference....