Should Medvedeva have won the Olympics ?

[Vash01]

I just realized this discussion belongs in the Trash can. We are just expressing our reactions. There is no news or article here.

 

[Elkmaria]

I'm a Med fan, but, unfortunately for me and other Med fans, Zagitova looked more powerful and solid today. I felt that Med was a bit off, some of her jumps looked laboured, though she did her absolute best to stay clean and commit to the performance. She totally deserved silver, but missed the gold by just a bit...
As for the much-debated PCS, I'd say give the best PCS of the night to Miyahara! Just my humble opinion

 

[WanderlustTO]

Med got beaten at her own game. After all these years of receiving inflated PCS marks, the same hyperinflation that propelled her to all those titles killed her OGM chances.

It's ironically fitting, non?

I did think Medvedeva got beaten at her own game...but my view wasn't from a PCS angle...it was from watching, with annoyance, a couple of years ago where Medvedeva was (legitimately/fairly!) able to gin up her TES by putting her hands over her head during every jump...only to be outsmarted by someone who packed all her jumps into the second half of her program.

 

[MichaelK]

I don't agree with all the scores but I feel that overall the right Olympic champion was crowned. Yes, Zagitova's PCS is inflated, but the same is true for Medvedeva. Zagitova's jumps are overall better, she doesn't flutz, this lutz-loop combo in the 2nd half is very impressive, and you can't blame Zagitova for taking advantage of a judging system that rewards jumps all being performed in the second half of the program.

 

[brennele]

I think Weir said it best, there was an eyelash width of difference between these two ladies. They were both excellent beyond description but somebody had to win. Of the two, I think I liked Zagitova a tiny bit better - her performance seemed more athletic while at the same time immensely artistic. To be honest, the top four ladies were all fantastic - any one of them was OG material but somebody has to come out on top. The thing I don't like about FS is that it all comes down to one event - a few brief minutes - winner take all type of thing. In "real life" if you had two professionals in an occupation and they were both that close and that good, it would not matter. They would likely both be hugely successful in their field. In Olympic sports, it is not like that. Someone could be 99.9 and someone else 99.8 - no significant difference - yet only one gets the gold. People train with everything they have got for decades on end yet, in the end, it all comes down to the very tiniest of margins. Even though I am a huge FS fan, this aspect of it makes me very sad. Sometimes I wish two people could share the gold.

 

[Lanie]

Yes, due to the bizarre PCS given to Alina in the SP and LP. Had PCS been allocated properly, she'd have gotten bronze.

 

[KimGOAT]

Zagitova was "immensely artistic"? Just when you think you have heard it all. I would say her artistry was on par with maybe Bradie Tennell's, or at a stretch Gabby Daleman (only since Daleman had those falls which dropped her usual artistic standard down as well).

And I dont get this talk of the quality of Zagitova's jumps too. The only good things about her jumps, in fact the only things superior to Medvedeva's jumps which I dont even consider top quality, are that she doesnt flutz and can do a triple lutz-triple loop. Otherwise what is the quality, tiny baby jumps with no height, ugly air positions, often crooked rotation, and poor flow and landing position? Yeah great quality. Her ridiculous GOE are almost as disproportioned as her already noted absolutely absurd PCS.

 

[Japanfan]

In the Olympics the younger skaters almost always win.

S/S in pairs would certainly be the exception to that, as would S/Z in 2010.

Though younger is better does seem to be somewhat of a trend in singles.

 

[Meoima]

S/S in pairs would certainly be the exception to that, as would S/Z in 2010.

Though younger is better does seem to be somewhat of a trend in singles.

That’s why Raf said he wanted Alyona and V/M to win. They give good lessons to other skaters that there’s hope even though you’re veterans.

 

[aftershocks]

Evgenia was gorgeous, a worthy Champion through and through, like Michelle.

I realize that people find something wonderful about Evgenia with her huge brown eyes and baby doll face with malleable expressions. She seems very soulful and dreamy in interviews, and she has grace and nice lines. However, I personally do not see much comparison with Michelle Kwan who had excellent jump technique, cleaner edges, the best arms in the business, and authentic presentation skills that came from her heart. Frankly, Evgenia was lucky to win in 2016 when Gracie lost a championship that was hers to win. Thereafter it could have been a rivalry. But I'm glad Gracie is happy and taking care of her health and well-being, as there's no substitute for being whole and happy.

Evgenia has not been well-served by some of the weird OTT programs she's been given. Evgenia does have soulful eyes and artistic sensibilities, but she also has jump technique weaknesses that have been overlooked in all the hype. She would be better served if she competed to revamped versions of her exhibitions, e.g., Sailor Moon. But I get that Eteri & Co are on a mission to use 'gimmickry' to make their young charges seem more mature, which is a tactic that works extremely well with ISU judges who are willing and eager to be taken in.

People will frame this debate in terms of whether Medvedeva did enough to get the PCS/GOE to catch up to Zagitova's overall total, but the real question is whether Zagitova should have gotten those monstrous PCS in the first place, esp. in the SP, and the answer is of course not.

Neither Medvedeva, nor Zagitova deserve scores in the mid and high 9s on PCS! Zagitova is the more athletic jumper, and I think she has excellent potential, but as usual she's been rewarded prematurely. NBC commentators were even suggesting that neither Zagitova nor Medvedeva will be around much longer, and this might be their only chance at the Olympics because of all the new Russian phenoms who will be coming up.

Contrary to claims that Zagitova is so balletic, I'd have to say, No, she's just wearing a tutu and prancing around over the ice posing, which serves to camouflage her immaturity. Medvedeva has jump technique issues as well as some slight pre-rotations and suspect URs that never get called. The reason they win is because the judges and the entire skating community have bought into the hype that began in the lead-up to Sochi with Lipnitskaya's PCS rising precipitously. By Sochi, Lipnitskaya became the darling of the team competition and was suddenly being touted to win OGM in ladies singles when she should only at most have been competing for bronze in singles. When the individual event began, fired up Sotnikova was eager to win a medal since she'd been left off the team event roster. Despite Sotnikova's talent not being quite soup yet, she took over from a failed and overexposed Lipnitskaya. The rest is or will soon be history.

Daleman and Osmond clearly both have higher jumps with greater ice coverage than the jumps of Zagitova and Medvedeva. Mirai's jumps are higher too, and she's recently corrected her UR tendencies. Karen's jumps are high but uncontrolled, and as Charlie White indicated, Karen does not rotate fast enough to have consistently successful landings. Carolina's jumps look beautiful in the air, but she doesn't have great technical difficulty nor consistency of execution. Satoko did well to get around on her tiny jumps. She's obviously been working hard and she's a lovely skater -- it's just that her jumps don't hold up in comparison to other top ladies. Osmond was stoked and refused to give up her place on the podium. Kaori Sakamoto is a marvel with light, fluffy jump technique and soft knees. She just needs to keep developing and improving artistically, but hopefully drop the OTT pantomiming shtick copied from Medvedeva.

... but It wasn't her own game, from her words "its for the judges to evaluate me".

So it's Eteri's game then, and it's working... It will be interesting to see how things progress further with more of Eteri's phenoms glutting the ice and taking each other out. For my money, Polina Turskaya who sat at home is better than both Medvedeva and Zagitova. Albeit that Turskaya has an hereditary illness and she needs more competitive experience, as well as political backing and fanfare to the same level as her training mates.

As for the much-debated PCS, I'd say give the best PCS of the night to Miyahara! Just my humble opinion

I would agree that of the top ladies for PCS, it should be Miyahara and Kostner at the top (but Miyahara was scored 3 1/2 pts lower on PCS than Kostner in the sp, and over 4+ pts lower than Kostner on PCS in the fp). I would rate Osmond next highest on PCS, and then Medvedeva. And then, I think Sakamoto and Zagitova are fairly on a par PCS-wise. If Mirai had her A game together and was rocking on all cylinders with her tech and presentation talents, her PCS should be at least on a par with Osmond's, IMO. Karen too should be above Sakamoto and Zagitova on PCS, if she could correct her technique and confidence issues.

In the Olympics the younger skaters almost always win.

Perhaps in recent times. But if that were true across the board, then Midori Ito would be 1988 Olympic champion!

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

 

[Polaris]

I think Weir said it best, there was an eyelash width of difference between these two ladies. They were both excellent beyond description but somebody had to win. Of the two, I think I liked Zagitova a tiny bit better - her performance seemed more athletic while at the same time immensely artistic. To be honest, the top four ladies were all fantastic - any one of them was OG material but somebody has to come out on top. The thing I don't like about FS is that it all comes down to one event - a few brief minutes - winner take all type of thing. In "real life" if you had two professionals in an occupation and they were both that close and that good, it would not matter. They would likely both be hugely successful in their field. In Olympic sports, it is not like that. Someone could be 99.9 and someone else 99.8 - no significant difference - yet only one gets the gold. People train with everything they have got for decades on end yet, in the end, it all comes down to the very tiniest of margins. Even though I am a huge FS fan, this aspect of it makes me very sad. Sometimes I wish two people could share the gold.

That's why it's the Olympics and that's why we watch with bated breath.

 

[kwanatic]

Last night was again a case of a girl competing against women. Honestly I'd put Evgenia, Kaetlyn and possibly even Satoko over Alina based on their skating. It was a case of complete package skaters versus a jumping display that was admittedly out of this world, but ultimately lacked the parts of figure skating that are supposed to matter but apparently don't anymore.

This win is going to shift the sport towards that kind of skating. Backloaded, busy and extremely difficult programs that pay only minimal attention to the things that used to make this sport beautiful. As a longtime fan, I'm extremely disappointed. I definitely appreciate the technical side of the sport, but I think it should carry equal weight with the artistic side. When that happens, the most complete skater gets the win. That did not happen last night.

Say what you will about all of the ridiculous scores Evgenia has received over the years (I know I have). However, despite my annoyance with her over scoring, I've never once disagreed with her winning a competition. I've felt the margin should have been closer but I've never questioned her placement...

This is the 3rd time I've disagreed with Alina winning a competition. In all 3 cases the judges placed her above a skater(s) who delivered a far more balanced program that gave equal attention to both the technical and artistic side of the sport, which is supposed to be what figure skating is about: balancing athleticism and artistry. There is no balance with Alina's skating. She is all technical. Her artistry is that of a more refined 15 year old...but still a 15 year old. There is a lack of maturity, connection, emotion and depth to her skating. Don Quixote, a tutu and jumping in time with the music doesn't make up for that IMO.

The judges and the terrible scoring are thoroughly killing my love for this discipline. I saw far more balance in scoring for the men, pairs and dance...

 

[Vash01]

S/S in pairs would certainly be the exception to that, as would S/Z in 2010.

Though younger is better does seem to be somewhat of a trend in singles.

Sorry, I meant in ladies discipline. Didn't make myself clear. Pairs skaters do compete well into their twenties and even thirties. Ice dancers too. We don't see 15-16 year old men win OGM. That distinction belongs to ladies.

 

[tony]

The short story- No. She has a very average jump technique and she was gifted with some very generous GOE’s in the LP in my opinion. Check them for yourself. Zagitova has a much more solid technique and both skaters got a PCS boost.

I think Osmond should have ever-so slightly won the LP over Alina. There's absolutely no way Evgenia should have won IMO. The real question is whether she deserved silver over Osmond.

 

[IceAlisa]

There’s a very angry article in Russian saying pretty much what @kwanatic said but in a more...erm...direct way. And also that the Russian fed abandoned Med when her foot fractured and invested all the political capital into Zags. That’s when her PCS started climbing into the ridiculous levels and culminated here

 

[judgejudy27]

Not sure as I think Osmond has a good case to having won the gold honestly, although I admit that could be my Canadian bias. Still I think Osmond was heavily underscored relative to BOTH Russians. She has bigger and better quality jumps than both, and in many ways better artistry, particularly than Zagitova, and a lot more speed than both too. Yet none of this was reflected in the scores. Her spins are weaker than both Russians, and she is a bit less polished than Medvedeva, so it isnt clear but she should have been fighting for gold with Medvedeva.

Medvedeva clearly beat Zagitova mind you, and it isnt even close. Zagitova got a boatload of ridiculously exagerrated and overscored GOE on numerous elements and PCS in both programs, but even moreso the short which is just an awful program artistically yet got huge GOE I am not even sure if Zagitova deserved the bronze over Miyahara or not considering Miyahara deserved to dwarf Zagitova in PCS in both programs, imparticular the short. Although Zagitova deserved higher TES than Miyahara in both, even if her TES was grossly inflated in both, even bringing it and her crazy mostly unearned GOEs down she would still clearly beat Miyahara in that part of the scoring.

 

[Polaris]

I think it's funny that people are calling Med a "complete package" and "true artist" and "wuzrobbed", when for the last few years and up to 6 months ago, she was being labeled as a "back-loading tano queen" and "technician" and "ridiculously gifted in PCS". FS fans are some of the biggest hypocrites.

Med is just as guilty of every criticism people are leveling at Zag. Zag just played the game better, and for that I applaud her for laying it down.

 

[IceAlisa]

I don’t recall being one of these people as I generally like her but last night she really got to me on an emotional level, in a good way. She was poignant

 

[judgejudy27]

@kwanatic, just curious which 3 competitions are you referring to that in your opinion Zagitova undeservedly won. By your comments it is clear you, like most, are counting the Olympics as one of those. I am going to take a guess the win over Higuchi in China was another. So if I am right on that, which was the 3rd? I did think she deserved the European title, Medvedeva messed up the short there, and she wasnt totally sharp yet, and Zagitova skated better in the LP atleast than at the Olympics here IMO. Even if her PCS was again comical, I think she had enough in hand there to win.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I think the PCS marks in the SP should have had a bigger spread between Evgenia and Alina. In the end it should have given Evgenia the slight lead when tech is considered. Think of a .03 Sasha lead in Torino or slightly more

 

[judgejudy27]

@eternitygoddess, I dont think it is so much that anyone is suddenly saying Medvedeva is an utterly stunning unwordly artist or the second coming of Janet Lynn. Just that she is clearly more artistic and should be significantly better in PCS than Zagitova. Which isnt saying much considering Zagitova merely has the artistry of a pretty good junior skater quite frankly. I will concede her LP is respectable artistically, I actually consider her Don Quixote interpretation better than Slutskaya's was to the same music in one of her famed programs. Still overscored relative to not only Medvedeva but several others (eg- Osmond, Miyahara, Kostner if she skates decent). Her short program however is horrendous artistically and should get so much lower PCS than it gets it isnt even funny. I have called it Swan Lake on crack since I first saw it. Kaori should even have had higher PCS in the short program if they were scoring normal. And of course it was her so far overscored SP (particularly in PCS) that gave her the win in the end.

And as @kwanatic rightly said while yes there might have been complaining about Medvedeva being overscored at times from some of us, she never had a single questioned or controversial win. Not even one. The scores or margins were questioned, never the victory. Zagitova is now on what, her 4th or 5th controversial win already in her very young career. That is quite a difference from Medvedeva who doesnt even have her 1st one yet (granted this was close enough had she won here it might have been, but that ultimately didnt happen so moot). Of course it isnt her fault, the girl doesnt score herself, but still no surprise at the criticsm how she is marked has been getting.

 

[BlueRidge]

I think it's funny that people are calling Med a "complete package" and "true artist" and "wuzrobbed", when for the last few years and up to 6 months ago, she was being labeled as a "back-loading tano queen" and "technician" and "ridiculously gifted in PCS". FS fans are some of the biggest hypocrites.

Med is just as guilty of every criticism people are leveling at Zag. Zag just played the game better, and for that I applaud her for laying it down.

Yes if what you admire most is game playing.

I can't argue with the judges though I did wonder how Zag climbed so quickly to the PCS level she had at GPF and Euros.

I think its a lot less arguable than 2014.

Judging is a herd thing and the herd followed Zag. You can argue it and a different scenario would have played out differently. Probably is true that had Med not had the injury she would have marched to the gold. And she would have deserved it but that didn't happen so Zag deserved it because she was awarded by the judges that small bit more.

Its not about the most moving and beautiful skating. If it were, it wouldn't be part of the Olympics which promotes the masculine values of higher, stronger, faster, or something to that effect. You've got to be a warrior, nerves of steel, win, win, win. What could be more admirable than that? Beauty? meh.

 

[bardtoob]

However, I personally do not see much comparison with Michelle Kwan who had excellent jump technique, cleaner edges, the best arms in the business, and authentic presentation skills that came from her heart.

Only that Evgenia is a worthy consistent champion is why she is like Michelle. Otherwise, they are very different.

 

[Polaris]

Yes if what you admire most is game playing.

I can't argue with the judges though I did wonder how Zag climbed so quickly to the PCS level she had at GPF and Euros.

Eteri & Co has turned the ladies FS into game playing over the last quad, and made the scoring into what it is last night.

Do I agree with it? No. But this is the brave new world we're in, and under the rules of the new world, Zag was the deserving winner.

 

[BlueRidge]

Eteri & Co has turned the ladies FS into game playing over the last quad, and made the scoring into what it is last night.

Do I agree with it? No. But this is the brave new world we're in, and under the rules of the new world, Zag was the deserving winner.

Under the rules and the judges opinions which under the rules are how its all determined, that is true.

I admire those who skate beautifully even if they don't play the game as well, not to take anything away from those who skate well and play the game well.

The game is going to happen but ultimately the judges decide if it is the determining factor. Under the rules they could have decided differently here. That's figure skating.

 

[julieann]

I think Osmond was slightly underscored and both Russian were slightly overscored but I think anyone making a case for Medvedeva only being good enough for the bronze proves the pendulum now swung in a ridiculous direction.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Eteri & Co has turned the ladies FS into game playing over the last quad, and made the scoring into what it is last night.

Oh please COP is and always has been since it's inception a numbers GAME. Even the most incompetent of commentators stressed that it was now a GAME long long before the name Evgenia Medvedeva ever enter the skating vocabulary.

Meghan Duhemal, in pairs, acknowledged a few years bak that she counts every point won and lost in the middle of programs. That's been the game now for over a decade.

It's not team Eteri's fault that she and her team are better at math then everybody else

 

[tony]

I think Osmond was slightly underscored and both Russian were slightly overscored but I think anyone making a case for Medvedeva only being good enough for the bronze proves the pendulum now swung in a ridiculous direction.

How so? Medvedeva was showered with huge GOE. I suspect this happened because the judges really did want her to win. But in no world are her (f)Lutz or Axels 'good' jumps, let alone the +2's and +3's she got. Her 3F+3T was a little nervy, too. I love Evgenia and much prefer her to Zagitova, but it's not as if she's way far ahead of her in any aspect. Osmond, on the other hand, landed five of her seven jumping passes about as perfectly, and by ISU definition, +3-worthy as you're ever going to see. Her program was also just as, if not more, complete and she's a quality skater.

Check the protocols. Medvedeva's GOE's for many of her jumping passes cannot be explained other than the judges giving her a shot to still win the title. In a more correct scoring world, Osmond (easily) beats her in the LP.

 

[Polaris]

Oh please COP is and always has been since it's inception a numbers GAME. Even the most incompetent of commentators stressed that it was now a GAME long long before the name Evgenia Medvedeva ever enter the skating vocabulary.

Meghan Duhemal, in pairs, acknowledged a few years bak that she counts every point won and lost in the middle of programs. That's been the game now for over a decade.

It's not team Eteri's fault that she and her team are better at math then everybody else

Eteri has worked and stretched the scoring system to her skaters' favor more than anyone. I am not blaming Eteri for it; it's what any smart and strategic coach should do. I'm just saying that the rules of the game are set, and Zagitova played by them the best. So no, Med was not "wuzrobbed".