2024 Four Continents/Junior Worlds/Worlds US Team Speculation

[Colonel Green]

I wonder if the missing Olympic team medal situation has anything to do with the US sending their a team to 4cc's

Why would it?

The US A-team always goes to 4CC in non-Olympic years now, with the occasional exception.

 

[Coco]

Not one bit. It's not China's fault our team still doesn't have their medals.

If it's true that the A-team goes in non-Olympic years, then that's that.

But it wasn't pleasing China I was thinking of so much as the ISU. Thought that would have been obvious.

ETA: ISU, mot IOC.

 

[Karen-W]

If it's true that the A-team goes in non-Olympic years, then that's that.

But it wasn't pleasing China I was thinking of so much as the IOC. Thought that would have been obvious.

And the IOC has nothing to do with 4CCs.

What you are suggesting is the USFS cut off its nose to spite its face. Why on earth would they deprive their skaters of valuable ISU Championship points and competition experience? By all accounts, the CFSA have organized great competitions this season and the skaters get really nice goodie bags and the opportunity to travel to one of the premier cities in the world. It would be beyond stupid to start acting like North Korea and keep our skaters out of this competition because we're still mad about the lack of medals from the 2022 Olympics - and that's not even the IOC's fault either since they weren't the NOC caught with a doping skater on their team.

 

[Karen-W]

And we have Golden Spin results for the Women!

Senior Women:

Skater	Sectional *4	GPF *3	GP Highest *1.25	GP Average *1.25	CS Highest *1	CS Average *1	Sr B Highest *.75	Sr B Average *.75	Prev Season *15	Total	Events
Levito	812.88​	575.58​	260.1875​	257.10625​	198.79​	198.79​	0​	0​	135​	2438.33​	CS Nebelhorn, SkAm, GPdF, GPF
Ziegler	802​	0​	250.625​	250.625​	173.6​	165.495​	137.8425​	137.8425​	0​	1918.03​	Cranberry, CS Lombardia, CS Finlandia, NHK
Andrews	662.2​	0​	218.525​	205.775​	165.55​	165.55​	125.2125​	125.2125​	0​	1668.03​	KCI, SCI, GP Espoo, CS Golden Spin
Seo	681.64​	0​	204.7125​	204.7125​	171.94​	171.94​	111.3525​	111.3525​	0​	1657.65​	Cranberry, CS Budapest, SkAm
Shin	627.36​	0​	221.425​	208.7375​	169.04​	169.04​	128.5875​	128.5875​	0​	1652.78​	CS ACI, KCI, SCI, CoC
Thorngren	794.92​	0​	248.4125​	242.65625​	0​	0​	149.37​	149.37​	0​	1584.73​	Cranberry, SCI, NHK
Glenn	710.04​	0​	237.0375​	234.3875​	177.51​	177.51​	0​	0​	30​	1566.49​	SkAm, GP Espoo, CS Golden Spin
Lin-Gracey	710​	0​	0​	0​	177.5​	177.5​	121.935​	121.935​	0​	1308.87​	Cranberry, CS Warsaw
Hilmer	653.24​	0​	0​	0​	160.13​	160.13​	121.05​	121.05​	0​	1215.60​	Cranberry, CS Nebelhorn
Everhardt	648.2​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	120.8325​	120.8325​	0​	889.87​	Cranberry
Warne-Jacobsen	683.72​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	96.6525​	96.6525​	0​	877.03​	Cranberry
Herrera	583.64​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	117.645​	117.645​	0​	818.93​	KCI
Pierce	575.4​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	93.9525​	93.9525​	0​	763.31​	Cranberry
Shen	740.84​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	740.84​
Evans	638.8​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	638.80​
M Lee	637.8​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	637.80​
Wang	636.6​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	636.60​

Selection Pool - Levito, Ziegler, Andrews, Seo, Shin, Tennell, Glenn, Thorngren

Note that Lin-Gracey does NOT meet the criteria for the Selection Pool, however she could be added for consideration by a unanimous vote of the International Committee.

 

[Karen-W]

Junior Women:

Skater

Nationals *4

GPF *3

GP Highest *1.25

GP Average *1.25

JGP Highest *1.25

JGP Average *1.25

CS Highest *1

CS Average *1

Sr/Jr B Highest *.75

Sr/Jr B Average *.75

Prev Season *15

Total

Events

Levito

0​

575.58​

260.1875​

257.10625​

0​

0​

198.79​

198.79​

0​

0​

135​

1625.45​

CS Nebelhorn, SkAm, GPdF, GPF

Ziegler

0​

0​

250.625​

250.625​

0​

0​

173.6​

165.495​

137.8425​

137.8425​

0​

1116.03​

Cranberry, CS Lombardia, CS Finlandia, NHK

Lin-Gracey

0​

0​

0​

0​

223.95​

222.04375​

177.5​

177.5​

121.935​

121.935​

0​

1044.86​

Cranberry, JGP Istanbul, JGP Yerevan, CS Warsaw

Seo

0​

0​

204.7125​

204.7125​

0​

0​

171.94​

171.94​

111.3525​

111.3525​

0​

976.01​

Cranberry, CS Budapest, SkAm

Thorngren

0​

0​

248.4125​

242.65625​

0​

0​

0​

0​

149.37​

149.37​

0​

789.81​

Cranberry, SCI, NHK

Chao

0​

0​

0​

0​

205.05​

205.05​

0​

0​

133.62​

133.62​

0​

677.34​

JGP Bangkok, KCI

Kalin

0​

0​

0​

0​

199.9125​

199.9125​

0​

0​

135.06​

135.06​

0​

669.95​

JGP Osaka, KCI

Everhardt

0​

0​

0​

0​

210.8625​

210.8625​

0​

0​

120.8325​

120.8325​

0​

663.39​

Cranberry, JGP Gdansk

J Lee

0​

0​

0​

0​

189.25​

189.25​

0​

0​

117.5325​

117.5325​

0​

613.57​

Cranberry, JGP Linz

S Zhang

0​

0​

0​

0​

218.975​

216.14375​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

435.12​

JGP Budapest, JGP Yerevan, WYOG

C Park

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

127.68​

124.35375​

0​

252.03​

KCI, Tayside

Shen

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

122.64​

122.64​

0​

245.28​

Cranberry

Higase-Chen

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

122.0175​

122.0175​

0​

244.04​

Cranberry

Herrera

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

117.645​

117.645​

0​

235.29​

KCI

E Cui

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

113.1375​

113.1375​

0​

226.28​

Cranberry

Johnson

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

112.6125​

112.6125​

0​

225.23​

Cranberry

T Kim

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

111.495​

111.495​

0​

222.99​

KCI

Barghout

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

111.1875​

111.1875​

0​

222.38​

Cranberry

Jurka

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

105.285​

105.285​

0​

210.57​

Cranberry

E Kim

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

97.665​

97.665​

0​

195.33​

KCI

Gibson

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

96.99​

96.99​

0​

193.98​

KCI

Baram

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

95.8875​

95.8875​

0​

191.78​

KCI

Bezkorovainaya

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

Bonillo

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

Clarke

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

K Hilbelink

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

H Kim

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

Nemirovsky

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

Platonova

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

Shao

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

von Felten

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

Wilson

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

Z Zhang

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0.00​

 

[miffy]

Thanks Karen, when is a decision expected to be made for 4CC? They have some tough choices there!

 

[Karen-W]

Thanks Karen, when is a decision expected to be made for 4CC? They have some tough choices there!

The International Committee meets on Monday for Dance and Tuesday for Singles & Pairs. We should see the announcement by the end of the week at the latest.

For grins and giggles, I've compiled the total scores for everyone in the Selection Pool of each discipline and calculated their average total score over the course of the fall.

Men -
Malinin - 281.68, 310.47, 304.68, 314.66; average = 302.87
Brown - 236.75; average = 236.75
Torgashev - 233.26, 219.67; average = 226.47
Pulkinen - 210.46, 230.84, 229.32; average = 223.54
Naumov - 201.71, 210.53; average = 206.12
Ma - 222.49, 191.08, 205.16, 191.26; average = 202.50
Kapeikis - 193.39, 181.03, 220.15, 196.94; average = 197.88

And, because he might be added to the Selection Pool by the IC -
Hiwatashi - 223.79, 191.72; average = 207.55

Women -
Levito - 198.79, 208.15, 203.22, 191.86; average = 200.51
Thorngren - 199.16, 189.52, 198.73; average = 195.80
Glenn - 189.63, 185.39, 177.51; average = 184.18
Ziegler - 183.79, 157.39, 173.60, 200.50; average = 178.82
Shin - 169.04, 171.45, 177.14, 156.84; average = 168.62
Andrews - 166.95, 174.82, 154.42, 165.55; average = 165.44
Seo - 148.47, 171.94, 163.77; average = 161.39
Tennell - no scores

And, because she might be added to the Selection Pool by the IC -
Lin-Gracey - 162.58, 177.50; average = 170.04

Pairs -
Liu/Nagy - 165.20, 177.66, 172.60; average = 171.82
Kam/O'Shea - 182.07, 152.16; average = 167.12
Plazas/Fernandez - 161.51, 169.37, 157.08, 168.20, 168.14; average = 164.86
Martins/Bedard - 135.17, 152.64, 154.66; average = 147.49
Mokhova/Mokhov - 145.75, 127.05, 134.81; average = 135.87
Chan/Howe - no scores

Ice Dance -
Chock/Bates - 212.96, 209.46, 221.61; average = 214.68
Carreira/Ponomarenko - 177.91, 191.14, 186.70, 188.76; average = 186.13
Zingas/Kolesnik - 187.28, 184.96, 183.78, 183.32; average = 184.84
Pate/Bye - 177.95, 191.20, 181.46, 184.58; average = 183.80
Green/Parsons - 168.56, 185.07, 189.33; average = 180.99
Brown/Brown - 180.66, 177.66, 177.21, 187.62; average = 180.79
Bratti/Somerville - 177.66, 183.43, 179.39; average = 180.16
McNamara/Spiridonov - 169.15, 167.77, 164.25, 167.84; average = 167.25
Hawayek/Baker - no scores

 

[misskarne]

Men -
Malinin - 281.68, 310.47, 304.68, 314.66; average = 302.87 (4)
Brown - 236.75; average = 236.75 (1)
Torgashev - 233.26, 219.67; average = 226.47 (2)
Pulkinen - 210.46, 230.84, 229.32; average = 223.54 (3)
Naumov - 201.71, 210.53; average = 206.12 (2)
Ma - 222.49, 191.08, 205.16, 191.26; average = 202.50 (5)
Kapeikis - 193.39, 181.03, 220.15, 196.94; average = 197.88 (4)

And, because he might be added to the Selection Pool by the IC -
Hiwatashi - 223.79, 191.72; average = 207.55

Ooof, that's not a great look for the US men. Jason has done all of one comp, in which he didn't even skate particularly cleanly and looked a bit comp-rusty, and he's still the second-highest scorer. When the averages are taken into account it's not even close.

 

[Karen-W]

Ooof, that's not a great look for the US men. Jason has done all of one comp, in which he didn't even skate particularly cleanly and looked a bit comp-rusty, and he's still the second-highest scorer. When the averages are taken into account it's not even close.

Agreed. It's not pretty at all.

I do think Camden is actually not far off of Jason when you discount his early season Challenger. He is the only one of the men to have improved and then maintained the same level at his GPs.

 

[RoseRed]

And we have Golden Spin results for the Women!

Senior Women:
...

Selection Pool - Levito, Ziegler, Andrews, Seo, Shin, Tennell, Glenn, Thorngren

Note that Lin-Gracey does NOT meet the criteria for the Selection Pool, however she could be added for consideration by a unanimous vote of the International Committee.

Doesn't Lin-Gracey qualify under season world ranking? She's currently 12th.

 

[Karen-W]

Doesn't Lin-Gracey qualify under season world ranking? She's currently 12th.

?‍Ohhhh, looks like the standings were updated with the GPF/JGPF results (but not Golden Spin) and I forgot to check them. Yes she does.

 

[Stephanie]

Have they decided not to announce the 4CC team until the entries are due? Per the selection procedures, there was supposed to be an announcement right after the selection meeting but it seems there’s been a change of plans.

 

[Karen-W]

Have they decided not to announce the 4CC team until the entries are due? Per the selection procedures, there was supposed to be an announcement right after the selection meeting but it seems there’s been a change of plans.

I can't imagine the USFS waiting to announce the team until the entry deadline - that's another 3 weeks away. I suppose someone could email or message them on SM to ask why the team hasn't been announced yet. I was definitely expecting an announcement by today.

 

[crzesk8dad]

I can't imagine the USFS waiting to announce the team until the entry deadline - that's another 3 weeks away. I suppose someone could email or message them on SM to ask why the team hasn't been announced yet. I was definitely expecting an announcement by today.

They don't announce until skaters/coaches have been contacted and confirmed. Maybe the process is taking a few days.

 

[Karen-W]

They don't announce until skaters/coaches have been contacted and confirmed. Maybe the process is taking a few days.

Strange since that's not the process for consideration/selection outlined in the selection document...

From pg 2 -

No later than December 1, 2023, any interested athlete/team must submit a declaration form to U.S. Figure Skating Headquarters indicating their intent to compete at the Four Continents Championships. If the plan to compete at the Four Continents Championships changes after submitting the form, the athlete/team or their primary coach must notify the International Committee Chair and the Senior Director, Athlete High Performance (in writing) prior to the start of the International Committee selections meetings for the athlete/team’s discipline. Due to the timing of the 2024 Four Continents Championships (the week immediately following U.S. Championships), the 2024 Four Continents Team will be selected prior to the 2024 U.S. Championships. As such, the International Committee selections meetings for Four Continents will take place on December 11 (Dance) and December 12 (Pairs and Singles), 2023.

and from pg 8 -

6. REQUIRED DOCUMENTS
The following documents are required to be signed by an athlete prior to the selection meeting as a condition of participation on the Four Continents Team and are included as attachments: The U.S. Figure Skating Athlete Agreement (Attachment A) and Competition Readiness Agreement (Attachment B) are required to be adhered to as a condition of participation in the Four Continents Championships. If the athlete was not provided with the documents prior to the selection meeting, the athlete will have up to 48 hours to submit the required signed documents from the time of the announcement of selection to the Four Continents Team.

and also from pg 8 regarding the announcement -

8. ANNOUNCEMENT OF SELECTION
The selection of athletes and substitutes in ranked order will be announced to all athletes in the International Selection Pool via email and followed by a press release on U.S. Figure Skating’s website immediately following the respective selections meeting. Selected athletes will receive an assignment letter in the days following the nominations.

So, the USFS isn't following the procedures outlined in their own document if they're waiting for the athletes to accept the assignment before making the announcement public.

 

[crzesk8dad]

Strange since that's not the process for consideration/selection outlined in the selection document...

From pg 2 -


and from pg 8 -


and also from pg 8 regarding the announcement -


So, the USFS isn't following the procedures outlined in their own document if

Strange since that's not the process for consideration/selection outlined in the selection document...

From pg 2 -


and from pg 8 -


and also from pg 8 regarding the announcement -


So, the USFS isn't following the procedures outlined in their own document if they're waiting for the athletes to accept the assignment before making the announcement public.

The skaters get an intention form to fill out prior to US Nationals. It usually is around this time. But due to the calendar, things may be different than before.

I can say that my experience has been that the skaters and coaches are notified, sometimes weeks prior to the public announcement. I will admit however this is not in regard to 4CC, but JGPs GPs, Challengers and Senior Bs. Possibly due to 4CC being so soon this year, things may be faster than before. I'm sure we will hear very soon.

At Nationals they say the next day for Jr Worlds and Worlds, so who knows?

 

[Carolla5501]

Maybe the problem is that they didn't get enough "Intent forms"

 

[Karen-W]

Maybe the problem is that they didn't get enough "Intent forms"

LOL - doubtful. I cannot imagine any dance or pairs team passing on those WS points. Same with most of the singles skaters.

 

[Carolla5501]

LOL - doubtful. I cannot imagine any dance or pairs team passing on those WS points. Same with most of the singles skaters.

I can... timing is a huge issue on this and you are looking at a long flight. If you do Nationals... you would finish Nationals on 1/27 or 1/28 and have to be in China to COMPETE on 2/1 .... Not be in China for official practices. Looking at flight schedules from Columbus your best bet is a morning flight. So you do gala Sunday evening (or finish competing Sunday afternoon for men) and then next morning you fly 19 hours to arrive at the destination on the evening of 1.29. Sounds horrid to me

I think a lot of our "top skaters and teams" might have said "Thanks but no Thanks" Do teams like Evan and Maddie really need those points THAT much. I am just wondering if the "team "might not have the strength USFS wants because some of the top skaters passed. (and if the reason for the delay is "let's presssure some skaters"

Of course I am convinced that USFS is just crazy so the delay could just be their normal operating process LOL

 

[chameleonster]

For the majority of skaters, Championship assignments aren't so guaranteed that they can be choosy. Chock/Bates certainly can afford to skip in terms of knowing they'll be on the team anyway, but they've already confirmed that they'll be going, likely they don't want to risk Gilles/Poirier building momentum in their absence in a reverse of last year.

 

[Karen-W]

I can... timing is a huge issue on this and you are looking at a long flight. If you do Nationals... you would finish Nationals on 1/27 or 1/28 and have to be in China to COMPETE on 2/1 .... Not be in China for official practices. I think a lot of our "top skaters and teams" might have said "Thanks but no Thanks" Do teams like Evan and Maddie really need those points THAT much. I am just wondering if the "team "might not have the strength USFS wants because some of the top skaters passed. (and if the reason for the delay is "let's presssure some skaters"

Of course I am convinced that USFS is just crazy so the delay could just be their normal operating process LOL

Chock/Bates have already stated they plan on competing in Shanghai. It isn't a matter of points for them, but it would be for just about any other dance team hoping to make the Worlds team (especially Hawayek/Baker) and every single pairs team we have.

The USFS will assign the best skaters they have, regardless of who has passed on the event already - just look at the men assigned last season when Malinin & Brown passed and Torgy didn't have the TES mins.

As far as travel is concerned - I've checked Google Travel - there aren't any direct flights - the best they can get is Columbus to Detroit early Monday morning on Jan 29, a 2.5 hr layover and then Detroit to Shanghai late that morning which arrives on Tuesday afternoon Jan 30. That would mean missing the official practice on Tuesday, which can't be helped, but it is possible the ISU would arrange for a special practice session that evening for the US skaters due to the travel constraints. It's also possible that some of the team would leave as soon as their competitions are over and miss the Nats Gala.

 

[AYS]

I don't see why the timing of Nationals is that big a deal for 4CCs. Once you've completed 4CC's you have 6+ weeks to prepare for Worlds. If 4CCs ended 2 days before Nationals or if it was a week or so before worlds, I think that would be a different story. So you finish Nationals knowing you're going to hop on a flight and compete in 3-4 days. It's not ideal for best performance at 4CCs, but worth the travel and a little fatigue for the points, potential medals, and frankly, part of your training.

And for someone like C/B, they've probably done at least a dozen flights to Asia by now where they've at least been out and performing within a couple of days.

 

[On My Own]

I can buy dance teams 'needing' those points.

 

[dancing_on_ice]

I can buy dance teams 'needing' those points.

World Standings points are crucial for staying in the top 24 world standing's list, which guarantees at least one Grand Prix assignment. Not to mention, scores are usually higher at Championship events, which also helps for staying/getting in the top 24 season's best list, which also guarantees at least one Grand Prix assignment.

The teams that don't theoretically 'need' 4CC are Chock/Bates, CPom, and Green/Parsons. Those three teams are high enough on the season's best and world standing's lists that they are in no danger of dropping out of either list and jeopardizing their Grand Prix assignments for next year. However, CPom and Green/Parsons definitely still want to go to 4CC to build their reputations. Chock/Bates have also already confirmed that they will be attending to maintain their position as the top team.

All other teams are in jeopardy of falling out of the top 24 of either list which could jeopardize Grand Prix spots for next year.

And for someone like C/B, they've probably done at least a dozen flights to Asia by now where they've at least been out and performing within a couple of days.

C/B have done back to back competitions across the world before without problem. In the 2019-20 season, they were assigned to Grand Prix France and Cup of China in back to back weeks and competed without issue.

 

[On My Own]

World Standings points are crucial ...

I meant top dance teams, for the reason that ID cares less about skating, more about momentum and politics and standing. C/B might need to go just to keep that momentum running. IDK.

 

[AYS]

And probably most important but I haven't seen it mentioned, apparently they get some decent prize money these days. I can't find the one for 2023/2024 season, but this is the 22/23 list:

https://isu.org/short-track/rules/stk-communications/29720-isu-communication-2516/file

I mean, if it's similar this year, for 1st place, C/B would get $30,000 for competing kind of tired.

 

[dancing_on_ice]

I mean, if it's similar this year, for 1st place, C/B would get $30,000 for competing kind of tired.

USFS gives bonuses on top of prize money as well. However, the fact that top skaters still skip the event with regularity indicates that the prize money is not enough of a draw to compete.

 

[ChillSkate]

Was the US Four Continents team ever announced? If not, do we have any idea why it was delayed?

 

[Karen-W]

Was the US Four Continents team ever announced? If not, do we have any idea why it was delayed?

Nope and nope.

Entries are due on Tuesday, so we should see the entry lists on the ISU website by Thursday at the latest.

 

[dancefan17]

I suspect there were some really tough decisions in some disciplines, especially without nationals results. Even with established criteria. I really wish nationals were a bit earlier in January in general, not just in Olympic years.