Create Your Own Selection Criteria for 2025-2026

Karen-W

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17,587
Are the women SP the last to go for the SP portion? If so, they may ask Nathan to prepare for the LP ahead of time in the case it becomes really close for gold.
Yes. The order is:

2/4 Men's SP, Dance RD, Pairs SP
2/6 Women’s SP, 1 hr break followed by Men's FS
2/7 Pairs FS, Dance FD, Women’s FS

Men's SP is 2/8 and the FS is 2/10.

I do not think there is any way that the US and JPN will NOT split their Men, and they shouldn't.
 

Karen-W

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17,587
During the one hour break, "Guess what Nathan! We got you an extra practice session with a full run-through to do. But it's a public session so don't mess up too much. Ok, thanks!" ;)
No. I edited my post to include when the Men's event itself is. Both the US and JPN will absolutely split their Men in the TE, and this is 100% the right decision for both countries.
 

VGThuy

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38,219
No. I edited my post to include when the Men's event itself is. Both the US and JPN will absolutely split their Men in the TE, and this is 100% the right decision for both countries.
They may not. Canada didn't split every event they could have, much to the chagrin of Weaver/Poje to ensure a gold medal.
 

Karen-W

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17,587
They may not. Canada didn't split every event they could have, much to the chagrin of Weaver/Poje to ensure a gold medal.
Different situation and different schedule and expectations. I don't think the USFS and USOPC are going to do anything to damage either Nathan or Vincent's chances at individual medals. It would be one thing is the rest of the schedule was the same as it has been for decades with Pairs up first followed by Men.
 

skateboy

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7,788
I'm sure this is a REALLY unpopular opinion, but here goes:

Specifically because the Olympics are such a high pressure, one shot in every four years deal, I think nationals for every country should be the Olympic trials and of equally high pressure: the top three (or one, or two) go to the Olympics, period. No body of work, no nothing. You're sick for Nationals, or simply don't skate your best? Too bad for you, you're out.

The Olympics themselves are not forgiving, why should the event that decides their athletes be?

Of course, my thinking this has ZERO bearing on anything that will ever be implemented, lol.
 
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VGThuy

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38,219
I'm sure this is a REALLY unpopular opinion, but here goes:

Specifically because the Olympics are such a high pressure, one shot in every four years deal, I think nationals for every country should be the Olympic trials should be equally high pressure: the top three (or one, or two) go to the Olympics, period. No body of work, no nothing. You're sick for Nationals, or simply don't skate your best? Too bad for you, you're out.

The Olympics themselves are not forgiving, why should the event that decides their athletes be?

Of course, my thinking this has ZERO bearing on anything that will ever be implemented, lol.
They did that for 1993 Nationals, and people often complain to this day about how they just went with the top three instead of putting Tonya on the team. I guess part of their point was that they felt Tonya was underscored at Nationals aka the results weren't right...which still happens these days.
 

Karen-W

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They did that for 1993 Nationals, and people often complain to this day about how they just went with the top three instead of putting Tonya on the team. I guess part of their point was that they felt Tonya was underscored at Nationals aka the results weren't right...which still happens these days.
Tonya was criminally screwed at that Nationals and the USFS was stupid to have not sent her to Prague for Worlds but instead relying on Nancy to get the job done and secure three spots.
 

VGThuy

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38,219
Tonya was criminally screwed at that Nationals and the USFS was stupid to have not sent her to Prague for Worlds but instead relying on Nancy to get the job done and secure three spots.
But hey, they used Worlds to give Ervin and Kwiakowski experience and went with the top 3 placers rather than a skater who shown to have blown it multiple times in her career and came to Nationals out of shape and in no condition to medal. The argument is sounding familiar.
 

screech

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6,936
Are the women SP the last to go for the SP portion? If so, they may ask Nathan to prepare for the LP ahead of time in the case it becomes really close for gold.
Are they able to adjust the entries that late in the game, or are they required to state who will complete all the SP/FP at the time of the SP draw? IIRC weren't WeaPo kept off the team event because it wasn't known early enough that Canada was guaranteed gold?
 

Fadeevfanboy

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Messages
300
This is so tough. I honestly was shocked at the ridiculous controversy over Wagner being chosen over Nagasu despite light years better results for the past 3 years and the new "body of work consideration" mantra, when Nagasu beat her by only 1 spot at Nationals. It was clear at that point, the new idea of not going automatically with Nationals results was going to take some getting used to.

I think now it has gone too far though. That James & Radford could be chosen over Walsh & Michaud not even competing at Nationals and WDing after being 4th in the short program, when both teams have mediocre results, shows the "body of work" thing is going a bit too far IMO. Or Ross Miner not even getting an alternate spot after being 2nd at the 2018 Nationals, and the 6th place finisher getting it over him. I am not sure what the perfect balance is though.
 

VGThuy

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38,219
Are they able to adjust the entries that late in the game, or are they required to state who will complete all the SP/FP at the time of the SP draw? IIRC weren't WeaPo kept off the team event because it wasn't known early enough that Canada was guaranteed gold?
I get really confused about that. I heard they finalize the LP entries after the SP portion is complete, but I also heard other things as well. And there's only an hour in-between the Women TE SP and the Mens TE LP.
 

VGThuy

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38,219
This is so tough. I honestly was shocked at the ridiculous controversy over Wagner being chosen over Nagasu despite light years better results for the past 3 years and the new "body of work consideration" mantra, when Nagasu beat her by only 1 spot at Nationals. It was clear at that point, the new idea of not going automatically with Nationals results was going to take some getting used to.

I think now it has gone too far though. That James & Radford could be chosen over Walsh & Michaud not even competing at Nationals and WDing after being 4th in the short program, when both teams have mediocre results, shows the "body of work" thing is going a bit too far IMO. Or Ross Miner not even getting an alternate spot after being 2nd at the 2018 Nationals, and the 6th place finisher getting it over him. I am not sure what the perfect balance is though.
I actually agree with this. I'm leaning towards the idea that BOW should really only be reserved from those who are medal threats or real spoilers (top 5 scorers not just placement). Those who are close to or just outside of that need to bring it at Nationals.
 

emason

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4,505
I'm sure this is a REALLY unpopular opinion, but here goes:

Specifically because the Olympics are such a high pressure, one shot in every four years deal, I think nationals for every country should be the Olympic trials and of equally high pressure: the top three (or one, or two) go to the Olympics, period. No body of work, no nothing. You're sick for Nationals, or simply don't skate your best? Too bad for you, you're out.

The Olympics themselves are not forgiving, why should the event that decides their athletes be?

Of course, my thinking this has ZERO bearing on anything that will ever be implemented, lol.
In the case of the US, if Nationals is officially designated as Olympic Trials, then the US has to give a portion of the revenue from the event to the IOC. USFS can’t afford to do that.
 
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becca

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21,319
I actually agree with this. I'm leaning towards the idea that BOW should really only be reserved from those who are medal threats or real spoilers (top 5 scorers not just placement). Those who are close to or just outside of that need to bring it at Nationals.
I do sort of see the point when all are competing on Senior Circuit and apples to apples can be compared.

I sort of see the point with the team event and allyssa.

But I feel this whole thing can get very dangerously applied.

I am not convinced that this cannot be used to prop up favorites.

I also suspect if it was let’s say a Max Aaron who has similar body of work to Jason I think they would take ilia.

So how much if this is here is our federation pet.

And Ilias tech content here was astounding. It’s not like this was close.

I also think if the second place Canadian pair team displayed the pairs equivalent to what Ilia did. Team Canada would have taken them.
 

skatingguy

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11,918
Are they able to adjust the entries that late in the game, or are they required to state who will complete all the SP/FP at the time of the SP draw? IIRC weren't WeaPo kept off the team event because it wasn't known early enough that Canada was guaranteed gold?
Weaver/Poje were never going to be included in the Team Event in 2018. It had been decided before the games started that only the Ladies would be substituted between the Short & the Free. As it turned out they didn't even need to do that because the event was clinched after the Free Dance.
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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But aren't J/R potentially a 'medal threat' due to the impact they might have on Canada's chances in the team event?
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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I don't know, but the team event does kind of expand the scope of what it means to be a metal contender.

This sport has a history of crappy judging. They will either fix the actual score or have less than transparent selection criteria.

I choose to see selection criteria as a step forward.

Making Nationals in the Olympic year the be all end all will result in people competing injured. So there's that, too.
 

Karen-W

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17,587
But aren't J/R potentially a 'medal threat' due to the impact they might have on Canada's chances in the team event?

Are they going to be used in the team event?
There is no way they won't be used for at least one segment of the TE, maybe both. Here's a comparison of J/R and M-T/M's scores over the course of the season.

James/Radford
SP - 68.29 / 67.55 / 65.02 / 71.84 / 56.74
FS - 115.72 / 123.03 / 122.90 / 124.50 / 130.83

Moore-Towers/Marinaro
SP - 61.60 / 66.43 / 58.95 / 61.51
FS - 122.77 / 113.82 / 118.77 / 115.46
 

flyushka

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68
Personally I don't see that this BOW experiment has yielded the US too many great results over the years. Has it won them any medals at Worlds/Olympics? I can't think of any but I haven't kept up with skating as closely as I used to so forgive me if I'm missing something. The only payoff I can think of is selecting Karen Chen last year but a broken clock is right twice a day. The USFS selection process has been wildly inconsistent and arbitrary, and shows a lack of a competitive mindset. Like US men are successful in spite of USFS.

Having a more detailed set of criteria this year seemed like an improvement to the arbitrariness until it apparently caused them to be hamstrung by their own rules that are unable to see the forest for the trees. It overvalues the early season and doesn't account for rapidly developing younger skaters. A young phenom blows the field away at the only head to head competition that exists, 3 weeks before the Olympics and can't go because of some random score months ago at cranberry cup? You don't think a skater who has added multiple clean quads to their programs might score significantly better than their median suggests?

I'm reminded of a situation a few years ago in college football if anyone follows that, when Nick Saban (who certainly does not lack a competitive mindset) famously benched his starting quarterback at halftime in the national championship in favor of a young phenom freshman who had recently put it all together and was lighting it up in practice. It was hard to do that to his starter and it was risky as hell to throw this untested kid out there on the biggest stage in the sport, but he took the chance and the team came from behind to win the title.

Sometimes you have to decide if you're going to take your best or your most deserving. If you want your best team sometimes you have to take risks. The current US selection criteria seems designed to stamp out risks and I'm not sure what the point of it is. To secure 10th place? I don't have an answer for how to develop a better system, but they need one that isn't bogged down with bullet points and allows them to use their own lying eyes to make a best guess at who's in the best position to do well in 3 weeks.
 
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MacMadame

Doing all the things
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49,184
Or just send the top 3 if you can't trust yourself to do that.
I am all for that with a few exceptions. Such as someone who is out of Nationals due to a medical bye who was a clear lock for a top 3 placement. (And presumed to be well by the time the Olympics roll around.)

And the more I'm seeing the BOW/Selection Criteria play out, the more I am feeling like giving consideration for skaters who aren't going to contend for Worlds Top 5, to the point that you essentially disregard a great Nationals performance, is ridiculous.
Yep. I see it as USFS would be stupid not to send Nathan if, say, he'd had to withdraw from Nationals due to a negative C0vid test. But does it really matter if they send Jason or Ilia? I expect both will do well enough so why not reward skating well at your most prestigious competition of the year?

I get to decide!
That works for me.
 

becca

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21,319
I don't know, but the team event does kind of expand the scope of what it means to be a metal contender.

This sport has a history of crappy judging. They will either fix the actual score or have less than transparent selection criteria.

I choose to see selection criteria as a step forward.

Making Nationals in the Olympic year the be all end all will result in people competing injured. So there's that, too.
It does a little I find Allyssa’s body of work questionable. But I would put her on the team cuz she is the only us girl with a semblance of content that is competitive.

But I don’t think putting Jason in the team event makes any sense.

He is a beautiful skater but his jump content means he is at the mercy of other skater skating poorly. Sure others may mess up but plenty of men are capable of getting in the 90s in the short.

In the long Canada China Russia and Japan all gave men who can out jump him. The worst they can place is fifth so why the heck not take the risk and use Zhao heck let Ilia go out there and jump.

I mean he is gunning literally for 7-9th place.
 

coppertop1

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1,543
I would say if a skater has to withdraw due to injury or illness, if they want to petition for a spot on the team, they should have to show they'll be recovered enough to compete (not necessarily at 80%). Didn't Michelle Kwan have to do something like that in 2006?
 

LilJen

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Group 1: Costumes I like and/or can make good jokes about
Group 2: Voiceovers in music
Group 3: I just like them
Group 4: Everyone else #noskaterleftbehind
Also, excellent grammar and syntax needs to be a criterion. 😀
 

VGThuy

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38,219
What a headline. Kwan, a two time Olympic medal winner, was such a fake Olympian.
 

tony

But it just doesn't fcuking glide
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What a headline. Kwan, a two time Olympic medal winner, was such a fake Olympian.
Did you read the article? It says she shouldn't have had to do it, either, and that USFSA had other options. Of course that’s just part of it, but the large argument seemed to be that no one benefitted from the closed-door method.
 
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VGThuy

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38,219
Did you read the article? It says she shouldn't have had to do it, either, and that USFSA had other options. Of course that’s just part of it, but the large argument seemed to be that no one benefitted from the closed-door method.
Yes*, and by her not having to do it, the author certainly didn't mean just naming her on the team either. He wanted her to compete at 4CC or do a public session for the public to see for themselves (unofficially) as well. From what I remember, Kwan suggested her nomination on the team be conditioned on officials ascertaining her readiness to compete.

Anyway, I'm criticizing the headline, not the author (unless he wrote the headline) because I know oftentimes, the authors of the articles don't write their own headlines and his article didn't actually state she wasn't a "real" Olympian. That's the only issue I have...other than this quote:

A new system of scoring emphasizes jumps and athleticism, never Kwan's strengths even when she was young and healthy. She hasn't done well under the new system, which is all the more reason to have Kwan perform in the open.
First off, Kwan did have jumps and athleticism. Sure she wasn't Tonya, but Kwan set a high standard of clean and "complete" programs that her competitors had trouble keeping up with. Whether or not you thought she should have placed lower, and no matter how you can criticize her for the fact that she could have been better prepared and not thrown so many points away with better element construction, she did place 4th at her first ever IJS - beating the eventual Olympic champion who placed 9th.

* I don't know why you have to question me by asking if "I read the article".
 

tony

But it just doesn't fcuking glide
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* I don't know why you have to question me by asking if "I read the article".
Because your first (limited) reply had the tone that it was said she wasn't a real Olympian- not in 1998, not in 2002, and not in 2006. That's all you said, so how should I know? :lol: I didn't get that vibe and wondered if/how you did from the article. Which you then gave this:
Anyway, I'm criticizing the headline, not the author (unless he wrote the headline) because I know oftentimes, the authors of the articles don't write their own headlines and his article didn't actually state she wasn't a "real" Olympian.
A new system of scoring emphasizes jumps and athleticism, never Kwan's strengths even when she was young and healthy. She hasn't done well under the new system, which is all the more reason to have Kwan perform in the open.
Well, she didn't exactly do 'well' in the one COP competition she had at 2005 Worlds, and she had not done the Grand Prix in 2003, 2004, or 2005. I do think people were a little too gung-ho on flexibility back in the early days of the system, and I said in another thread recently that I vaguely remember Kwan saying in the QR at Worlds that she didn't know she needed to hold her (final) spiral for 3 seconds. Whether or not that happened, I didn't find anything on a quick search when that discussion came up.

I'm not that author, so I don't know if his concern came from stuff like that, or if 'not doing well' was in the scope of being off the podium for the first time in 9 years in his only COP sample. Maybe he was concerned with her getting the green light not being really prepared, after seeing the skating at the cheesefest. But in any event, 4th wasn't the end of the world unless it's a Hersh-like moment where everything that isn't top of the podium is a catastrophe for the state of US skating.
 

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