U.S. Women [#2]: The Unbearable Lightness of Beijing

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VGThuy said:
I don't know if there's anything itemized in the selection procedures to have that sort of conditional selection. The USFS seems to only do that in very special circumstances, like with a knee whack taking out their top skater for Nationals but she has promise to be well enough to compete at the Olympics, or a Michelle Kwan 2006 situation.
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Or, like Todd Eldredge in 1992 when he was the reigning world bronze medalist. It's pretty rare though and unless Bradie is in the Top 3 at Nationals, I don't think she'll be the exception. The team has to be named pretty soon after Nats and while alternates are always named, I'm not sure the USFS would have much justification to put an injured Bradie who hasn't been able to compete all fall on the team ahead of a healthy skater, even if a healthy Bradie is likely to score much higher than most of the other women we have.
 
Vagabond said:
You can always wonder, but USFS has already issued its selection criteria and it would be unfair to change them now.
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But this isn’t criteria to make the team, my thought is to make sure that those selected, whether previously injured or not, keep old injuries not part of the picture and don’t get any new injuries that would affect an O performannce

Remind my old brain who of olden times backed out and we’re replacements always available and allowed to jump in
 
ЭPiKUilyam said:
I like this selection criteria because it is all laid out. But such a criteria should allow/consider an injured top skater. Bradie doesn't need to be in the TeamEvent, and couldn't she w/d the day before the SP if she isn't ready to compete? And then the alternate could take her place? Like Emily Hughes being immediately available when Kwan was expected to w/d after practicing only once on Oly ice.
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So the O Committee always accept subs, and if one has done the team event then I would assume one cannot sub after that
 
Lacey said:
So the O Committee always accept subs, and if one has done the team event then I would assume one cannot sub after that
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That's why I was thinking if Alysa does both SP and LP (like she should IMO) then Bradie would have an extra week or so to pull herself together. She could improve drastically from USN to the moment of the ladies SP. And an extra ten days might make a difference for her.
 
Lacey said:
But this isn’t criteria to make the team, my thought is to make sure that those selected, whether previously injured or not, keep old injuries not part of the picture and don’t get any new injuries that would affect an O performannce

Remind my old brain who of olden times backed out and we’re replacements always available and allowed to jump in
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There have been alternates for as long as I can remember.

One comparatively recent example was in 2010, when Ashley Wagner was an alternate for the Olympics and Worlds and declined a chance to go to Four Continents so that she could concentrate on Junior Worlds and the Olympics instead. In the end, she wound up withdrawing from World Juniors because she had trouble adapting her Free to the shorter format for Juniors, and the skaters who were given Olympic and World assignments (Mirai Nagasu and Rachael Flatt), did not withdraw.

figureskatersonline.com

Ashley Wagner content with season's end - Figure Skaters Online

Earlier this week, Ashley Wagner withdrew from the 2010 World Junior Championships in The Hague, Netherlands. The current U.S. Championship bronze medalist is not injured and will continue training for the senior World Championships in Torino, Italy.
figureskatersonline.com
 
Karen-W said:
Or, like Todd Eldredge in 1992 when he was the reigning world bronze medalist. It's pretty rare though and unless Bradie is in the Top 3 at Nationals, I don't think she'll be the exception. The team has to be named pretty soon after Nats and while alternates are always named, I'm not sure the USFS would have much justification to put an injured Bradie who hasn't been able to compete all fall on the team ahead of a healthy skater, even if a healthy Bradie is likely to score much higher than most of the other women we have.
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But I’m still confused is this still a boot problem with Bradie was it reported or is she actually injured? Or did the boot issue causing injury?
 
Bradie's exact words in her Team USA media (virtual) summit appearance on Oct. 18:
I had a stress reaction earlier this summer, and then I was on my way back and wound up tearing a few muscles in my foot, but I have a really good team of doctors here. And I'm very much looking forward to making a full recovery and competing.
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ETA that Bradie cited an "ongoing injury with my foot" in her IG post on the same day: https://www.instagram.com/p/CVLStagFieO/
 
ЭPiKUilyam said:
That's why I was thinking if Alysa does both SP and LP (like she should IMO) then Bradie would have an extra week or so to pull herself together. She could improve drastically from USN to the moment of the ladies SP. And an extra ten days might make a difference for her.
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(This should (and it's my fault for putting my questions here) be in the all competitors thread or selection process thread because I do not mean to be picking on the women or Bradie.)

Wasn't there a competition where a US Senior Lady, I think it was Rachel Flatt, got in trouble for not telling US Committee up front that she as a selected athlete was not well/was injured for a competition (might not have been an international one, but just a US Nationals?), it had something to do with whether or not it was done in time to be able to make a substitution. Or did we just talk about this after the fact, but she did not get "in trouble."

And I am not prejudging any competitors, just have the kind of brain that doesn't want unanswered "what ifs," so we won't be bogged down in the middle of the Os.

OK, with these questions, I think I am finished:

Is there a deadline by which date the selections to the Olympic will be made or is it just "after Nationals." Does US Nationals end on Sunday, when is selection made, that day or later?

Is there a deadline by which date withdrawals from the Olympic Team have to be made in order to qualify for a substitution, would this be by event, say Senior Men's or for the whole competition?

And, those who brought up the Team Event know more than me about substituting before or after a section of the Team Event, if one drops out before, during or after the Team Comp, is one therefore "off" the whole team or just off the Team Comp?

What is the first official date of the Team Comp?

What is the first official date of the O's individual skating competitions:

To quote Sylvia's very thorough treatise above, this much is clear about petitioning and explains an excellent monitoring panel for petitioners:

A successfully petitioned 2022 U.S. Olympic Team athlete must be able to prove his/her ability to compete by performing complete competition programs with all planned program elements by a specified date, as approved and reviewed by a monitoring panel to be determined by the appropriate IC Discipline Subcommittee. In addition, medical personnel approved by U.S. Figure Skating must verify that the athlete(s) will be physically ready to compete at the 2022 Olympic Winter Games.

This helps figure out petitioning, but not later substituting that is also part of the picture.
 
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Lacey said:
Is there a deadline by which date the selections to the Olympic will be made or is it just "after Nationals."
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Per the ISU's 2022 Olympic qualification document, the deadline for entries is January 22 (see pg 8).


So, theoretically, yes, the US could name hold off on naming the team until that day - say Bradie doesn't compete at Nationals and they have her do some private run-throughs during the 2 weeks following Nationals.
Lacey said:
Is there a deadline by which date withdrawals from the Olympic Team have to be made in order to qualify for a substitution, would this be by event, say Senior Men's or for the whole competition?
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Like any ISU competition, substitutions can be made until the day of the Short Program Draw for the discipline in question. So, theoretically, if they were to name Bradie to team, they could replace her up until approximately 48 hours prior to the start of the Women's SP in Beijing. But, remember, the C19 situation complicates matters and any athlete who would be a replacement is going to need to be in Beijing much earlier than 2 days before the Women's SP.
Lacey said:
And, those who brought up the Team Event know more than me about substituting before or after a section of the Team Event, if one drops out before, during or after the Team Comp, is one therefore "off" the whole team or just off the Team Comp?
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I'm not sure if you are asking about competing in the Team Event and then withdrawing before the Individual events & being able to be replaced by another skater or the Team Event substitutions.

To answer the first - If a skater competes in the Team Event then they are considered as competing in the Individual event as well and can not be replaced. Plushenko only competed in the Team Event and then withdrew for the Men's event in 2014 and Russia was not allowed to name a replacement.

To answer the second - A nation may swap/substitute out competitors in two disciplines of the Team Event from the SP to the FS as long as they have at least 2 entries in that discipline for the Individual Event. For example - in 2018, even if the US had wanted to swap out Knierim/Knierim in pairs, we couldn't have done so since K/K was our only entrant in the pairs individual event.

Honestly, looking at the time frames involved and the travel restrictions for athletes to Beijing this year, I just can't see someone in Bradie's position (assuming she doesn't compete at Golden Spin next month) being named to the team unless she finishes Top 3 at Nationals.
 
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Lacey said:
Is it unfair or overkill of me to wonder, especially with skaters potentially just coming back from injuries, if this year acceptance to an Olympic Team can be done conditionally (at Nationals?) with skater(s) and the back up substitutes needing to show judges through mini private or public showings of their programs that they are still on track for the big O Team, (how many weeks later?) in the week before the final list of names is due.

That way, anyone like Bradie, who was out for injury this fall, or anyone with new injuries can be correctly selected or rejected up to the last available time.
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Pretty much everyone is going to be screwed.
 
@Lacey are you thinking of when Nicole Bobek went on a tour instead of resting an injury, and then after withdrawing from US Nationals, petitioned to go to Worlds on the basis of being the world bronze medalist the previous year? 1996, I think?
 
Brenda_Bottems said:
5Who?

Regardless,this entire "under rotated" jumps penalty is a disastrous debacle without any quantitative basis in reality. The judges are mired in crooked politics,largely helmed by a country who shouldn't even be allowed to compete at the Olympic Games.

-BB
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She was the 1999 4 c's champion, and won the 1999 grand prix final beating both Michelle and Irina (and the other Russians). She was also beat Kwan in the short at 99 worlds, but faltered a bit in the free and slipped to 4th or 5th. Maria B. from Russia won 99 worlds (becoming the oldest lady to do so in a long long time) to the "delight" of Dick and Peggy.
 
cmk said:
She was the 1999 4 c's champion, and won the 1999 grand prix final beating both Michelle and Irina (and the other Russians). She was also beat Kwan in the short at 99 worlds, but faltered a bit in the free and slipped to 4th or 5th. Maria B. from Russia won 99 worlds (becoming the oldest lady to do so in a long long time) to the "delight" of Dick and Peggy.
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Peggy before the SP: "Michelle would have to literally leave the building to lose this World title".
Maria: "Hold my lipstick for me, Pegs, why don't ya?"
 
My belated reply to @mtnskater:
mtnskater said:
Caught up with the latest senior events from the USFS championship series Leesburg today [Nov. 1].

I don’t remember Jill Heiner before but her jumps looked quite good, especially in the short. She jumps high. Spins are good. I think Sylvia mentioned upthread that she has markedly improved with her new coaches. I’m thinking (based upon how phenomenal Ilia Malinin‘s jumps are) that Roman Skorniakov and Tatiana Malinina are really good jump and spin coaches.
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I actually posted about Heiner and her coaches (Malinin's parents) last week in the Kiss & Cry section ;) - Jill has been the pleasant surprise to date in the Championship Series standings.

After 5 qualifying competitions and 3 to go, UNOFFICIALLY these are the top 2 in each of the 3 sections (E/M/P), plus 3 more for a total of 9 qualifying spots to Nationals:
1 Gabriella Izzo 183.07 (TX) E1
2 Jill Heiner 172.62 (VA) E2 [registered for Alpharetta, GA as 2nd qual. comp.]
5 Finley Hawk *164.29 (MN) M1
6 Alena Budko 163.95 (NV) P1 [Alpharetta, GA]
8 Wren Warne-Jacobsen *162.05 (MN) M2
12 Isabelle Inthisone 157.41 (VA) P2

Next 3 highest total scores after first 5 competitions:
3 Hanna Harrell 171.51 (NV) E3
4 Rena Ikenishi 169.75 (VA) E4
7 Gracie Gold 163.62 (VA) E5 [Alpharetta, GA]
---
Next 12 highest total scores (10 of these skaters can improve their total score by competing in a 2nd comp., along with anyone else who is scheduled to compete in Norwood, Spokane and/or Alpharetta):
9 Jessica Lin *159.84 (IN) M3 - won the gold in Fort Wayne, IN last night
10 Lara Annunziata 159.56 (VA) E6 [Alpharetta, GA]
11 Sonja Hilmer 157.51 (TX) M4
13 Maryn Pierce 156.18 (TX) M5
14 Sierra Venetta 153.89 (TX) P3
15 Maxine Marie Bautista *148.69 (MN) M6 [WD from Fort Wayne, IN :(]
16 Paige Rydberg 146.73 (TX) M7
17 Courtney Hicks 146.21 (TX) M8
18 Violeta Ushakova 145.49 (VA) E7 [Alpharetta, GA]
19 Alex Evans 144.41 (NV) P4
20 Sarah Jung 140.74 (VA) E8 [Alpharetta, GA]
21 Ting Cui (VA) E9 137.68 [Alpharetta, GA]

* = higher score of 2 competitions listed

Norwood, MA is next week and then Spokane, WA & Alpharetta, GA close out the series the following week (ending Nov. 20).
Competitor lists for MA & WA are not online yet, AFAIK.

Projected international byes to Nationals in Senior (4):
Lindsay Thorngren 202.60 (VA-1) E
Starr Andrews 177.15 (MN-1) P
Isabeau Levito E
Audrey Shin E

Automatic byes to Nationals (top 5 last year): Tennell, Glenn, Chen, Liu, Bell
 
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It's obvious that Bradie is much more injured then Tom Z or Bradie have admitted to. The Instagram right before SA from Bradie made it seem like she simply hadn't had enough time to get ready to compete but if she really has been back on the ice training for the last few weeks then she would have competed later this season even if she's not in prime shape. But to cancel everything before Nationals says to me she is still injured.
 
Jammers said:
It's obvious that Bradie is much more injured then Tom Z or Bradie have admitted to. The Instagram right before SA from Bradie made it seem like she simply hadn't had enough time to get ready to compete but if she really has been back on the ice training for the last few weeks then she would have competed later this season even if she's not in prime shape. But to cancel everything before Nationals says to me she is still injured.
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Do we know that she's ruled out competing at all this fall? We had been speculating about a return to competition later this month or next in one of the ISU Challenger competitions.
 
skatingguy said:
Do we know that she's ruled out competing at all this fall?
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No, we don't know anything at this point. Even if USFS assigns her to Golden Spin, we'll have to wait and see whether or not she can or will compete in Croatia.

Posted by me yesterday, ICYMI:
Sylvia said:
Sigh, Bradie is listed as "Tennell (withdrawn 11/4)" from CS Warsaw Cup, Nov. 18-21, on USFS' International Assigments page that was updated today.

ETA: I assume she will be listed for CS Golden Spin in Zagreb, Croatia, Dec. 8-11, along with Mariah (and maybe a 3rd?) in the near future. Deadline for entries to be submitted is Friday, November 12, 2021.
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skatingguy said:
Do we know that she's ruled out competing at all this fall? We had been speculating about a return to competition later this month or next in one of the ISU Challenger competitions.
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Well, she's WD from Warsaw Cup, which isn't until November 17 to 21. So maybe she could make it to Golden Spin a couple weeks later? But it's not looking great.
 
Lacey said:
Wasn't there a competition where a US Senior Lady, I think it was Rachel Flatt, got in trouble for not telling US Committee up front that she as a selected athlete was not well/was injured for a competition (might not have been an international one, but just a US Nationals?), it had something to do with whether or not it was done in time to be able to make a substitution. Or did we just talk about this after the fact, but she did not get "in trouble."
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Rachael Flatt was reprimanded and fined for not reporting a stress fracture to her tibia that she learned of a week before 2011 Worlds.

www.chicagotribune.com

UPDATED: U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt

Rachael Flatt’s failure to report the injury that dramatically affected her performance at April’s World Championships in Moscow has cost her a reprimand and a fine. It also likely cost…
www.chicagotribune.com www.chicagotribune.com
 
Amidst all the hubbub, Alysa Liu is the highest scoring non-Russian on the international scene this season -

#7 (behind 6 Russian women) - 219.24 @ Lombardia, just ahead of Louena, Young You and Kaori.

Interestingly enough, Isabeau Levito is #18 - 208.31, ahead of all the other US Sr. ladies
 
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