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melanieg

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I think on the contrary.... and that's why Alysa Liu, while still a junior, wither 3A, won US Senior Nationals not once but twice...

I don't know... I think Alysa, and a handful like Thorngren, Mia and Isabeau started putting it out there early because they are motivated from within to be competitive internationally, not by extra points from USFSA.

I think the extra points are better than nothing, but I also think USFS should have tougher requirements domestically.
 

Tinami Amori

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I don't know... I think Alysa, and a handful like Thorngren, Mia and Isabeau started putting it out there early because they are motivated from within to be competitive internationally, not by extra points from USFSA.

I think the extra points are better than nothing, but I also think USFS should have tougher requirements domestically.
I had no idea Mia Kalin and Isabeau Levito are training 3A and quads! Are they?
 

Natanielle825

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That is either a LIE or MISINFORMATION.
Maybe misinformation. I'm under the impression that most lessons in Russia are given in groups, at least until the skater reaches a certain level, as opposed to in the US where almost no one takes group lessons above the age of 5 or something. And I thought it was fairly common for skaters whose families don't live in Moscow or St. P to live in dorms. Didn't Plushenko just build houses for his skaters so they don't have to go home? If I'm wrong please tell me politely without freaking out.
 
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AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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Alyssa’s spread eagle sequence into the layback/bielmann spin is everything 🤩❤️

Loved the detail of her La Strada costume too with the little blue and white stripe inset at the chest.
Where are y'all watching this. I can't find Alysa on Peacock Premium You Tube.
 

Willin

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Agree. From what I understand, the Russian testing system is a lot different from the US. I don't think Russian skaters can compete beyond a certain level without jumping 3-3s, so 3-3s become just a fact of life, and with everyone doing them, it's just a question of who's doing them best and most consistently. I don't agree with everything I hear/see about the Russian approach, but that seems like basic common sense to me. I think USFS is afraid to set the bar higher because it would put the squeeze on some of its long-favored skaters and coaches, but if USFS would bite the bullet I bet more US coaches would figure out how to deliver.

It looks like the USFSA/judges seem to be dead set on Bradie/Alysa/Mariah as the team with Karen and Amber always on the outside looking in.

Last year Karen and Amber should have beaten Alysa and Mariah in the SP and this year both should have been ahead of Mariah too. What exactly would it take for them to break through? It’s not like Bradie, Mariah and Alysa are head and shoulders above them because they’re not. Everyone is pretty much even
Definitely. USFS is way too set in certain skaters and coaches. While I don't entirely like how Russia tosses away skaters, they are willing to reward people regardless of name if they do a good job. Meanwhile USFS propped up Mariah hard last night.

Similarly they prop up Tom Z as some wonder coach and make it hard for new coaches to break into the top ranks by encouraging their skaters to go to USFS's favorite coaches instead. Like, I believe with some support and guidance coaches like Kori Ade could have had a lot more success. I think if USFS helps Alysa's former coach develop a good jump technique or gets good people around her to help her out, she can continue to have good skaters.

There are definitely multiple philosophical rifts on this board!

The thing is, 3-3s are not some crazy feat, and the better skaters can do them. If you want to compete with the better skaters, and if the USFS wants to actually compete internationally, then it should send skaters out who can at least do 3-3s. If you have that competitive mindset, you're not going to be holding back on 3-3s as a Novice just to win for that moment. You're going to want to get as much experience as you can with them, splats and all, so that when you're a junior and senior it's like, why wouldn't I do two 3-3s?

Yes, it's harder to spend time developing all skating skills when you have to train for consistent 3-3s. But isn't that the point of competition? To try to eventually do it all? Triple-triples are a BASELINE for competing internationally.

Same goes for Amber and the 3A. Why not do it at nationals, for heaven's sake? What did she have to lose? If she has any intention of competing with it internationally, she needs to go for it, get the experience.

I don't think the little bonus points work as motivation because USFS judging easily finds ways to work around that and prop up skaters who don't push for more tech.
Exactly. A lot of the skaters at nationals are able to land 3-3s in practice and warm up no problem. They just can't do so in competition. That's the real problem here.
 

Tinami Amori

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Maybe misinformation. I'm under the impression that most lessons in Russia are given in groups, at least until the skater reaches a certain level, as opposed to in the US where almost no one takes group lessons above the age of 5 or something. And I thought it was fairly common for skaters whose families don't live in Moscow or St. P to live in dorms. Didn't Plushenko just build houses for his skaters so they don't have to go home? If I'm wrong please tell me politely without freaking out.
no...... you're taking bits and pieces out of context. Russian parents put their kids in groups for recreation skating, like at any rink in USA. If a family is serious about kid's skating future, they immediately find the best coach they can get (if he/she takes the kid) and start private lessons + small groups that particular coach holds on top of private lessons. Parents pay for EVERYthing. Federation's support comes only to the Top level skaters. They do NOT live in dorms, because there are NO dorms (there were back in USSR, 30 years ago.) Plushenko's "cottage situation" is a PR move and not what he says it is (long story). Nobody forces skaters to learn 3-3, or quads/3A...... they can skate and do only Single jumps, if their parents are willing to pay for their recreational skating. But! top coaches, like Mishin, Tutberidze, Buyanova, Davydov, Panova, etc., will NOT take a skater with just double jumps if the skater is over a certain age, which makes sense. I am done for now, since this in NOT a "russian" topic.
 

overedge

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There are definitely multiple philosophical rifts on this board!

The thing is, 3-3s are not some crazy feat, and the better skaters can do them. If you want to compete with the better skaters, and if the USFS wants to actually compete internationally, then it should send skaters out who can at least do 3-3s. If you have that competitive mindset, you're not going to be holding back on 3-3s as a Novice just to win for that moment. You're going to want to get as much experience as you can with them, splats and all, so that when you're a junior and senior it's like, why wouldn't I do two 3-3s?

Yes, it's harder to spend time developing all skating skills when you have to train for consistent 3-3s. But isn't that the point of competition? To try to eventually do it all? Triple-triples are a BASELINE for competing internationally.

The reason for being in a competition depends on a skater. There are plenty of skaters every year at Nationals who know they have no chance at all to win, but it's a huge accomplishment for them to qualify and to be there. The same is true at Worlds. If they don't have a 3-3, or don't have a consistent one, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be kept home.

And like I said before....skating goes in cycles. If the US doesn't have many senior ladies with consistent 3-3s, that doesn't mean it never will again. Or that eventually Russia and/or Japan will have fewer ladies with 3-3s than they do now. As a US politician once said, it is what it is. The important thing is that a federation keeps supporting its skaters in a positive way so that they can develop their skills as fully as possible (and I agree with @Willin that could include supporting more coaches as well, not pushing skaters to go to whichever few coaches happen to be in the federation's good books).
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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Scanning quickly through everyone's posts so far, I'm kind of hoping there isn't a World Championships this year. I just sense that the USFSA will chack Amber out of a berth with their BOW bs.

Glenn brought it. Bell and Chen less so.

If a skater is prepared and skates well now, that should be the criteria for selection.
 
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Sonata

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This is the second time I remember watching Glenn and I find her programs so empty. Her movements are really rushed and there is something odd about her jump entries. Karen Chen was more of a complete package, I thought she would place ahead of Glenn. Clearly USFS loves Mariah Bell and she won Skate America. Not sure they could justify sending her with how low she placed at nationals. USFS can’t use Four Continents as a skate off. It’s an interesting conundrum, no clear number 2 to send to worlds, if there is one.

Congratulations to Bradie.
 

sjs5572

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It looks like the USFSA/judges seem to be dead set on Bradie/Alysa/Mariah as the team with Karen and Amber always on the outside looking in.

Last year Karen and Amber should have beaten Alysa and Mariah in the SP and this year both should have been ahead of Mariah too. What exactly would it take for them to break through? It’s not like Bradie, Mariah and Alysa are head and shoulders above them because they’re not. Everyone is pretty much even
That comment did not age well, lol.
 

Frau Muller

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...
Glenn brought it. Bell and Chen less so.
I would remove Bell from the above statement. She was totally propped-up in the SP this week, compared to Chen...then we saw more clearly what happened to Bell in the LP. Bell shouldn’t even be in the conversation for a 2021 Worlds spot...not to mention Olympics. It’s over, hon...unless USFS holds an additional event- such a “NAm Challenge” - between now & Worlds, in which Bell & others may have a chance to make a final case for a Worlds spot.
 
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gkelly

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as opposed to in the US where almost no one takes group lessons above the age of 5 or something.

I can only speak to the US situation.

It's not that group lessons are not available to older age groups, but rather that the US Figure Skating-affiliated group lesson programs only cover skills up to a certain skill level (single jumps).

The skaters who will go on to reach elite levels tend to be those who started at younger ages and then continue on once they exceed the group lesson curriculum. So yes, if you look at the backgrounds of elite US skaters, you will find that most of them had been taking private lessons by early elementary school ages.

But if you go to a local rink, whether a small one in an isolated area or a multi-surface training center that also serves elite skaters, and look at who is taking group lessons there, you will see children of all ages in the classes, plus often some classes for teens and adults.

Most skaters of all ages in group lessons are skating recreationally and will not end up continuing to competitive let alone elite levels.

Some of those who start group lessons at older ages will go on to take private lessons and become competitive skaters at middle levels with double jumps, same as those who started as younger children.

And very rarely skaters who start as preteens or younger teens will continue on to higher skill levels and more competitive success. Those are very rare exceptions, but more because of how hard it is physically to master elite-level skills without having ingrained the basics of skating from a young age. Not because they weren't allowed to start group lessons at 9 or 12 or whatever.
 
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UGG

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I feel like Alysa’s smile didn’t move the entire performance. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad 🤣
 

NAOTMAA

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I feel like Alysa’s smile didn’t move the entire performance. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad 🤣
There was an episode of The Simpsons where Lisa took tap lessons and right before the recital performance the teacher (a Shirley Temple parody) stapled their cheeks so they would have a permanent smile and could sparkle properly. Alysa looked like someone did just that to her :ROFLMAO:
 

Skibean

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I don’t think it’s over for Bell at all. That’s pretty harsh. This wasn’t the easiest season for any of them, and while I completely agree she was absolutely gifted in the short program, she’s far from done. She had terrible programs this season and definitely had an off night. Sometimes I think people forget these skaters are human. I agree she shouldn’t go to worlds- she didn’t earn it and Amber did.
Amber was amazing and I would’ve had her 1st. Bradie did well, but she appears to just check off the elements.
Chen also skated beautifully. I’m guessing she’s no longer doing studies at Cornell. I was impressed.
Alyssa is darling!!! So beautiful now. She’s not giving up and I admire that. And I’m liking Lindsay too. Lots of spunk and desire to win.
I think the future looks bright.
 

Natanielle825

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I can't help thinking Mariah felt the same way Ashley did at Nationals 2018. Going into a competition with all the confidence in the world and feeling the federation drop you like a hot potato. To beat Bradie at Skate America then come 30+ points behind her here has got to crush her morale.

I feel like Alysa’s smile didn’t move the entire performance. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad 🤣
😁😁lol it was bit over the top, but it was fun to watch. I'd rather see too much expression than too little, but ya, with more practice she could learn to show some range. I have lots of faith in her ability to improve, unlike some of her compatriots.

Music suggestions for Amber? I feel like she has so much personality and the free music was too muted, like when Ashley skated to Muse. Not saying she should copy her, but she'd do better with some of Ashley's other music choice styles I think. And Shae-Lynn choreography - not the Zoom brand, the real thing 🤐.
 

Vagabond

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I can't help thinking Mariah felt the same way Ashley did at Nationals 2018. Going into a competition with all the confidence in the world and feeling the federation drop you like a hot potato. To beat Bradie at Skate America then come 30+ points behind her here has got to crush her morale.
The Federation didn't drop her like a hot potato. She skated poorly in the Free and was marked accordingly. Johnny Weir remarked after Bell muffed her first two jumping passes that it had been years since she had had such a poor start in competition.
 

NAOTMAA

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It think the “mute music” helped Amber concentrate better. Normally she goes all out with something overly emotional or dramatic and was probably too much. I think something like Air on G string or Moonlight Sonata would work well for her as too

And as for Alysa and her trillion watt smile. It didn’t really fit the music did it? I’m not sure she even understood it. I can’t believe Lori Nichol didn’t at least give her some other expressions to do. I’m not sure what the idea behind the program was but I don’t think it worked. And in comparison to Kamila and Daria at Russian nationals she came across as extremely juvenile. She really needs to expand beyond cute
 

GreatLakesGal

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There was an episode of The Simpsons where Lisa took tap lessons and right before the recital performance the teacher (a Shirley Temple parody) stapled their cheeks so they would have a permanent smile and could sparkle properly. Alysa looked like someone did just that to her :ROFLMAO:
You nailed it. I can't recall much of her actual skating because I was so distracted by the (often inappropriate) grin that never left her face.

Alysa reminds me a lot of child actors. Not the Jodie Foster type of child actor who grows up into a fine adult actor. But rather those child actors who are overly coached by their stage parent(s) to always smile and be cute and bubbly.
 

tony

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I'm going to be the counter-opinion because I think Alysa is just naturally like that. Having watched some of the clips posted by Lipetski's group in the past, she was always goofing off and in the best of moods. From every article or social media clip I've seen this season, she's seemed totally realistic and, to me, ultimately care-free about the result as much as getting through this process and still having fun.

I know everyone would love a happy medium, but we don't typically see it, especially in youngsters. If it were the opposite and she was always sulking, there would surely be a thread about the possibility of her being forced to continue to skate or questions of whether she even likes it. I'd prefer the happy, 15 year old Alysa.
 

NAOTMAA

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You can still be happy and cheerful without looking like a child at a recital who’s only directions before going on stage were to sparkle sparkle. Alysa goes over the top and comes across as a pageant girl
 

natsulian

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Alysa’s smile was genuine and not plastered on. This was Alysa’s first and last competition of the season. As a person who thrives off of competition, she looks like she was savoring every single minute. As for the Free, I don’t like it either but I think the way she sold the program made sense. The way she skated gave a sense of overcoming, coming of age, and finding joy in the midst of a storm. That is beautiful and that is why it resonated with so many people. People who don’t follow figure skating talked about how her performance was their favorite on social media because of the joy they felt. In times like this, I think Alysa’s performance was uplifting and just the right dosage of “escapism.” Come next season, I think we need a program like her Free but with a clearer message and better choreography. Now that she’s got the skating skills, speed, and artistic capability (which she’s always had), it’s time to push her to artistic boundaries.
 

natsulian

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It’s funny how we think figure skating is dead due to ladies despite the fact that we’re highly competitive in ice dance and two men medaled (and one won) at the last world championships. It also got tons of attention at the Olympics and every so often an American skating performance will go viral. Last I checked, participation is still high considering how inaccessible this sport already is due to costs and time commitments.
I’m a high school student and I can tell you that when the Winter Olympics begin, everyone talks about figure skating. They don’t know specific skaters, they don’t understand the rules and nuances, and they question the scores (most people focus on the emotional impact rather than the jumps) but they always root for Team USA. Thanks to TikTok, there’s been an upsurge in interest in figure skating. I mean, “figure skating TikTok” has become a thing and garners MILLIONS of views each day. I can also tell you that everyone knows about the Tonya Harding story because of “I, Tonya” (it kind of became a cult classic) and Nathan Chen is pretty popular, especially if you’re Asian. The least popular disciplines, however, are pairs followed by ice dance. Alysa Liu is also “known” but only by those who remember her from the Jimmy Fallon show and because of the triple-Axel. All in all, I would say interest in figure skating is rising thanks to social media... not because of anything the US Figure Skating Federation has done. If anything, their marketing tactics are lagging a good 10 years.
 

tony

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I’m a high school student and I can tell you that when the Winter Olympics begin, everyone talks about figure skating. They don’t know specific skaters, they don’t understand the rules and nuances, and they question the scores (most people focus on the emotional impact rather than the jumps) but they always root for Team USA. Thanks to TikTok, there’s been an upsurge in interest in figure skating. I mean, “figure skating TikTok” has become a thing and garners MILLIONS of views each day. I can also tell you that everyone knows about the Tonya Harding story because of “I, Tonya” (it kind of became a cult classic) and Nathan Chen is pretty popular, especially if you’re Asian. The least popular disciplines, however, are pairs followed by ice dance. Alysa Liu is also “known” but only by those who remember her from the Jimmy Fallon show and because of the triple-Axel. All in all, I would say interest in figure skating is rising thanks to social media... not because of anything the US Figure Skating Federation has done. If anything, their marketing tactics are lagging a good 10 years.
Four year fans are nothing new, I promise you that. In 2010, there were a lot of articles/social media (before Instagram was around) about how Johnny Weir either should've won or he was robbed. The four-year fans gravitated towards that opinion, yet most of them only watched a clip of Johnny and nothing else from the entire competition. It's also similar to politics where no one cares about anything for four years and then the Presidential election comes around and everyone knows everything. In 1998, a lot of North Americans were convinced that Bourne/Kraatz were extremely robbed because of the picture the media was trying to paint, but a lot of people even on FSU still don't even know the first thing about ice dance scoring and technique.

I wouldn't equate a quick TikTok to garnering millions of new fans willing to sit through a 2 or 3 hour competition, often on a streaming service that you have to pay for, but it does bring more awareness to the sport. The funny thing for me is that a huge portion of the young LGBTQ population watches and are experts on RuPaul's Drag Race, but a lot of them still :rolleyes: over skating- which shares a lot of similarities. There are many different things that now get a quick minute of attention due to social media posts, but I wouldn't say they ultimately stick.

The ISU and USFS are many years behind in terms of engagement, that's for sure.
 
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natsulian

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Four year fans are nothing new, I promise you that. In 2010, there were a lot of articles/social media (before Instagram was around) about how Johnny Weir either should've won or he was robbed. The four-year fans gravitated towards that opinion, yet most of them only watched a clip of Johnny and nothing else from the entire competition. It's also similar to politics where no one cares about anything for four years and then the Presidential election comes around and everyone knows everything. In 1998, a lot of North Americans were convinced that Bourne/Kraatz were extremely robbed because of the picture the media was trying to paint, but a lot of people even on FSU still don't even know the first thing about ice dance scoring and technique.

I wouldn't equate a quick TikTok to garnering millions of new fans willing to sit through a 2 or 3 hour competition, often on a streaming service that you have to pay for, but it does bring more awareness to the sport. The funny thing for me is that a huge portion of the young LGBTQ population watches and are experts on RuPaul's Drag Race, but a lot of them still :rolleyes: over skating- which shares a lot of similarities. There are many different things that now get a quick minute of attention due to social media posts, but I wouldn't say they ultimately stick.

The ISU and USFS are many years behind in terms of engagement, that's for sure.
I agree. USFS needs better engagement and marketing, especially when it comes to ensuring that the public eye on the sport is not dictated by a single season (Olympic season). Before marketing, their first worry should concern rebuilding and restructuring to ensure that the US has depth.
 
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