U.S. Ladies [#29]: Skating with Adjusted Vision

[NAOTMAA]

It looks like the USFSA/judges seem to be dead set on Bradie/Alysa/Mariah as the team with Karen and Amber always on the outside looking in.

Last year Karen and Amber should have beaten Alysa and Mariah in the SP and this year both should have been ahead of Mariah too. What exactly would it take for them to break through? It’s not like Bradie, Mariah and Alysa are head and shoulders above them because they’re not. Everyone is pretty much even

 

[Carolla5501]

Why not a cap, though? There's an unwritten cap internationally if you aren't doing a 3-3.

I believe that's the Plushy rule as in "I should be able to do pelvic thrusts and nothing else as a program since I have a quad and beat that American"

He believed there was an unwritten cap written internationally if you were not doing a quad.

Didn't work for him either!

 

[Vagabond]

I believe that's the Plushy rule as in "I should be able to do pelvic thrusts and nothing else as a program since I have a quad and beat that American"

It's just a jump to the left
And then a step to the right
With your hands on your hips
You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane.

 

[VGThuy]

It looks like the USFSA/judges seem to be dead set on Bradie/Alysa/Mariah as the team with Karen and Amber always on the outside looking in.

Last year Karen and Amber should have beaten Alysa and Mariah in the SP and this year both should have been ahead of Mariah too. What exactly would it take for them to break through? It’s not like Bradie, Mariah and Alysa are head and shoulders above them because they’re not. Everyone is pretty much even

The judges pretty much tied Mariah and Karen in PCS and Karen initially had higher TES until the caller gave her a UR call. So I don't think it's as much of an inside job as you keep insisting it is. Before Bradie had no chance, and then Bradie blows it out of the water in the SP, so now Bradie is included in the USFS faves theory.

 

[Coco]

And why would the ladies be the center of attention when you have a man that has yet to really show standard on a quad, when the rest of the field at Worlds take maybe 1 or 2 is attempting one?

I know what you were referring to. Why would you not apply your logic equally?

They already get a maximum PCS for mistake(s). Why hit them with another maximum solely based on elements they do complete? Talk about making an 'unwritten rule' suddenly written and distancing the field even more..

A. This is the US Ladies thread.

B. I was addressing the post by @Skibean .

C. My logic is that 3-3 is super important internationally for ladies. US judges and coaches seem to apply a lot of 6.0 standards and logic to US ladies that does not help them succeed internationally. They need to incentivize the 3-3, heck, they need to incentivize the 2-3 at the developmental level. That is why I suggested some kind of cap or penalty / bonus that incentives 3-3 for US ladies.

D. Logic specific to 3-3s and ladies doesn't apply itself to men's skating without a lot of contorting.

 

[tony]

A. This is the US Ladies thread.

B. I was addressing the post by @Skibean .

C. My logic is that 3-3 is super important internationally for ladies. US judges and coaches seem to apply a lot of 6.0 standards and logic to US ladies that does not help them succeed internationally. They need to incentivize the 3-3, heck, they need to incentivize the 2-3 at the developmental level. That is why I suggested some kind of cap or penalty / bonus that incentives 3-3 for US ladies.

D. Logic specific to 3-3s and ladies doesn't apply itself to men's skating without a lot of contorting.

A. And threads never drift. I'm comparing your logic across the board while keeping it on topic. Sorry that bothers you.

B. I didn't know this was a PM where no one else could chime in. You sure do that plenty. Also, you didn't quote anyone.

C. My logic is that a quad is super important internationally for men. Put it this way since you don't want to think about the men: Imagine Satoko Miyahara did a 3+2 combination in the short program and was now limited to an 8.00 maximum in PCS because she didn't do a 3+3. I know she's not American, no need to tell me. But it's still illogical to punish a skater for content they've done, which is well within the ISU regulations. You want an even bigger separation between the skaters? Take a look at the top 5 scores and the rest of the field. Want Miyahara (or anyone else good with PCS) buried in the standings for a clean skate with a 3+2 because they should get hit with some deduction, OR give the skaters who do a 3+3 a bonus to break them away from the field even further?

D. Not really. Men typically need quads to even think about making the free skate at Worlds if they aren't in the top groups. Ladies need a 3+3 using the same idea. Someone could come up with the female equivalent of Brown, and it may very well be Miyahara with her rotation troubles. You're now taking away what keeps them competitive and creating only one possible path to the top.

 

[Coco]

Ahhh...so you are mad that I stood up for another poster you were bullying. I see.


I am talking about making US ladies skaters more prepared for international competition by having a bonus/penalty system in domestic competition so I'm not sure what you are trying to say by bringing in ISU competitions.

Been on FSU for nearly 20 years, never put anyone on ignore but you earned it. I'm not going to engage with someone who needs to make everything personal, and if we are going back months, deny my life experiences and disguise nastiness behind a so called intellectual argument. You weren't always like this so I hope everything is ok with you.

 

[tony]

Ahhh...so you are mad that I stood up for another poster you were bullying. I see.


I am talking about making US ladies skaters more prepared for international competition by having a bonus/penalty system in domestic competition so I'm not sure what you are trying to say by bringing in ISU competitions.

Been on FSU for nearly 20 years, never put anyone on ignore but you earned it. I'm not going to engage with someone who needs to make everything personal, and if we are going back months, deny my life experiences and disguise nastiness behind a so called intellectual argument. You weren't always like this so I hope everything is ok with you.

Nothing is personal about this but feel free to PM me since this seems to be a common trend. I was pointing out that you stick your nose into conversations without problem, you didn't quote anyone in this thread, and now you're mad that I'm giving counterpoints to your general statement. I hope everything is okay with you. We could always bring up the one Karen thread comment that you always scurry away from.

Even though I'm going to ignore list, I'd still like to know how punishing the US ladies (because yes, the USFS uses the ISU standards and a 3+2 or 2+3 is perfectly legal) and making an even further separation by limiting PCS, which some skaters may really excel even in the event they do a 3+2, gives them any incentive to continue on. But you've now made it personal for whatever reason.

 

[gkelly]

C. My logic is that 3-3 is super important internationally for ladies. US judges and coaches seem to apply a lot of 6.0 standards and logic to US ladies that does not help them succeed internationally. They need to incentivize the 3-3, heck, they need to incentivize the 2-3 at the developmental level.

USFS has instituted bonuses for jump difficulty at developmental levels.

E.g., currently for novices and intermediates,
+3.0 bonus for each two-jump or three-jump combination achieved in which two triple jumps are executed in succession;
+2.0 bonus for any triple jump achieved that immediately follows a double jump (including double Axel) in a jump combination.
(as well as smaller bonuses for each triple at those levels, and double axels at juvenile and intermediate)

Currently for juniors,
+1.0 bonus for each triple Axel achieved; b. +2.0 bonus for each quadruple jump achieved.

No bonuses at the senior level in the US, though.

Russia first started with domestic jump bonuses early in the IJS era. For seniors -- I don't know what other levels they included from the start, or whether/when they stopped applying those bonuses.

The problem with building bonuses into the scoring in domestic competition is that then it's officially built into the domestic rules that the scores won't match what the same performance would have earned from the same panel under international rules.

There does seem to be a difference in philosophy, whether the sport should be pushed to incentivize jump difficulty above all, or whether other blade-to-ice skills or performance qualities should be given comparable importance.

 

[Coco]

Thanks, @gkelly Do you know if they are applied to the TES? Maybe for seniors at domestic competitions it could something as simple as adding the fall penalty back in when the fall occurs on a 3-3 or 3a attempt. They would still get the negative GOE so the impact on the overall score wouldn't be huge.

 

[overedge]

Agree. From what I understand, the Russian testing system is a lot different from the US. I don't think Russian skaters can compete beyond a certain level without jumping 3-3s, so 3-3s become just a fact of life, and with everyone doing them, it's just a question of who's doing them best and most consistently. I don't agree with everything I hear/see about the Russian approach, but that seems like basic common sense to me. I think USFS is afraid to set the bar higher because it would put the squeeze on some of its long-favored skaters and coaches, but if USFS would bite the bullet I bet more US coaches would figure out how to deliver.

Or....the international rules could limit the number of 3-3s, more than they do now, and give more points value to non-jumping skating skills.

Plus, keep in mind that skaters are not landing 3-3s because they don't want to. It's not always a problem with motivation or coaching. Skaters know what other skaters are capable of doing, and what the others can do consistently. It may be an issue of physically being able to do a very difficult skill.

 

[gkelly]

Thanks, @gkelly Do you know if they are applied to the TES? Maybe for seniors at domestic competitions it could something as simple as adding the fall penalty back in when the fall occurs on a 3-3 or 3a attempt. They would still get the negative GOE so the impact on the overall score wouldn't be huge.

Yes, the bonuses are applied to the element score for that element.
Also "Jumps that are downgraded (<<) or have a wrong edge assigned (e) are not eligible for any bonus points." Jumps with < or q or ! calls are eligible.

Do you mean not taking the fall deduction off the TSS if the fall occurred on a 3-3 or 3A attempt?

 

[tony]

Or....the international rules could limit the number of 3-3s, more than they do now, and give more points value to non-jumping skating skills.

Plus, keep in mind that skaters are not landing 3-3s because they don't want to. It's not always a problem with motivation or coaching. Skaters know what other skaters are capable of doing, and what the others can do consistently. It may be an issue of physically being able to do a very difficult skill.

Well, the maximum amount of any 3+3's that any skater can do is 3, and that's only if you can throw a loop onto the end of one which isn't the case for many skaters.

Also, if you aren't competing with quads or a triple Axel, then you're going to have to fill your program with two 2As if you are doing the above, and then a double jump below an Axel because you've used all of your blocks.

The amount of 3+3's are not a problem, IMO.

Ex:
3Lz+3T+2T (edit: added the third jump in for maximizing points )
3Lz+3Lo
3F+3T
3S
2A
2A
2Lz

 

[Lizziebeth]

Maybe a cap on PCS or a bonus / deduction applied to skaters who don't show a 3-3?

They get points for what they do. Maybe I am missing something, but there is already a lot of discussion when judges raise the PCS for skaters doing quads. A jump is really not supposed to be part of the PCS score. You get points for a jump based on its value and additional GOE if judges like it.

 

[VGThuy]

Well, the maximum amount of any 3+3's that any skater can do is 3, and that's only if you can throw a loop onto the end of one which isn't the case for many skaters.

Also, if you aren't competing with quads or a triple Axel, then you're going to have to fill your program with two 2As if you are doing the above, and then a double jump below an Axel because you've used all of your blocks.

The amount of 3+3's are not a problem, IMO.

Ex:
3Lz+3T
3Lz+3Lo
3F+3T
3S
2A
2A
2Lz

Ack! You forgot the 3-jump-combo! Throwing points away!

 

[olympic]

Bradie - While I would have her in 2nd by virtue of her uncalled UR on the 3-3, that was a great performance. Her axel is bigger / Less whippy after moving to Tom Z, so good on her

Alysa - Color me surprised. She embraced herself and worked on her PCS which resulted in her staying on par. Just fantastic.

Mariah - A little tight but done.

Karen - It's good to see her ambitious and attempting the hard stuff again. She skates with more maturity and commitment. ETA - I am still over the delayed rotations on the jumps which give her URs because otherwise they are beautiful. Was the 3L rotated?

Amber - I know the 3A was a mess, but she didn't fall at least and happy that she nailed the rest of the SP.

Lindsey - What a little cocky whippersnapper. I wish her all the best.

Gaby Izzo - Looks like she avoided a UR that was deserved but there is something impressive about her ... Can't put my finger on it because she is not a classic skater but there is a notable sincerity there.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I also hate thinking that our girls will never be as successful as the Russians if they aren't trained in the same way - government funded, in large groups, away from their parents, factory-production style, etc. It's all just so depressing.

That is either a LIE or MISINFORMATION.

 

[NAOTMAA]

They do have bonuses in the Russian Cup series for spins and such. Maybe they could do something similar in US domestic competition.

Whatever it is they got to do something to get the ladies to raise the technical level. Only Bradie and Alysa are doing anything comparable to the Russians and Japanese overall. Everyone else is like 20 years behind

 

[Coco]

Yes, the bonuses are applied to the element score for that element.
Also "Jumps that are downgraded (<<) or have a wrong edge assigned (e) are not eligible for any bonus points." Jumps with < or q or ! calls are eligible.

Do you mean not taking the fall deduction off the TSS if the fall occurred on a 3-3 or 3A attempt?

That is what I'm thinking. Just something to give a small incentive to safely attempt more difficult elements.

I hear what @Lizziebeth is saying, too. I'm not sure where the best place is to put the bonus/penalty is.

Finally was able to watch some of the vids. Wish Karen Chen had a different 3-3 as her solo 3z would probably be a reliable +GOE. It's gorgeous, just not very combo friendly.

 

[Tinami Amori]

They do have bonuses in the Russian Cup series for spins and such. Maybe they could do something similar in US domestic competition.

Whatever it is they got to do something to get the ladies to raise the technical level. Only Bradie and Alysa are doing anything comparable to the Russians and Japanese overall. Everyone else is like 20 years behind

And only about 5 Russians and 5 Japanese are medal contenders, and the rest are 2nd tier..... Bradie is working on 3A and Alysa is about to re-train her 3A and a quad. ALL the rest, who do not have difficult jumps, are 2nd tier. So US is not that far back from Russia and Japan.

What i absolutely object to, is people trying to hold back, or unfairly critique, the Russians/Japanese instead of catching up on the US's side. Those girls who can not do 3-3's, and are not willing to or not able to learn 3A and quads, in ANY country, are absolutely free to skate for fun, nobody is stopping them, but they will NOT win medals, it is their choice - work hard or skate for fun. Life is tough and then you die......

 

[tony]

And only about 5 Russians and 5 Japanese are medal contenders, and the rest are 2nd tier..... Bradie is working on 3A and Alysa is about to re-train her 3A and a quad. ALL the rest, who do not have difficult jumps are 2nd tier. So US is not that far back from Russia and Japan.

What i absolutely object to, is people trying to hold back, or unfairly critique, the Russians/Japanese instead of catching up on the US's side. Those girls who can not do 3-3's, and are not willing to or not able to learn 3A and quads, in ANY country, are absolutely free to skate for fun, nobody is stopping them, but they will NOT win medals, it is their choice - work hard or skate for fun. Life is tough and then you die......

Agree completely. It's just that there are a few outliers in the world in terms of TES, just like there has been with the men for the last many seasons. Setting them apart even more and/or pushing the other skaters down even further doesn't make sense to me.

Imagine if the Russians came up with this idea for penalizing any ladies in PCS who don't have a quad, only to come here and read about the quad ladies getting overscored in PCS The skaters with the big technical elements already get a boost in both TES and GOE scales, which are now directly related to each element itself. I don't see the need for bonuses or penalties within US skating, and I don't think it will suddenly get skaters to get to a higher level of talent.

 

[concorde]

Maybe a cap on PCS or a bonus / deduction applied to skaters who don't show a 3-3?

At Juv through Novice, USFS gives skaters bunus points for trying the big jumps.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Agree completely. It's just that there are a few outliers in the world in terms of TES, just like there has been with the men for the last many seasons. Setting them apart even more and/or pushing the other skaters down even further doesn't make sense to me.

Imagine if the Russians came up with this idea for penalizing any ladies in PCS who don't have a quad, only to come here and read about the quad ladies getting overscored in PCS The skaters with the big technical elements already get a boost in both TES and GOE scales, which are now directly related to each element itself. I don't see the need for bonuses or penalties within US skating, and I don't think it will suddenly get skaters to get to a higher level of talent.

I am not advocating penalties for those who don't have 3A/quads, but i approve rewarding those who do, for those jumps (or other new and difficult elements). When one does something more difficult than others, the one should be rewarded for that element.

 

[overedge]

They do have bonuses in the Russian Cup series for spins and such. Maybe they could do something similar in US domestic competition.

Whatever it is they got to do something to get the ladies to raise the technical level. Only Bradie and Alysa are doing anything comparable to the Russians and Japanese overall. Everyone else is like 20 years behind

Maybe it's just a time in US ladies' skating when only a few ladies can do certain things. The federation has to work with what it has. It can't just order skaters to increase their level of difficulty and make that magically happen.

And the US still has a stronger skating program and federation than a lot of other countries, with better facilities (when they're open), more coaches, and better support. Don't poop on the whole thing just because more US ladies can't do what you think they should be able to do.

 

[olympic]

And only about 5 Russians and 5 Japanese are medal contenders, and the rest are 2nd tier..... Bradie is working on 3A and Alysa is about to re-train her 3A and a quad. ALL the rest, who do not have difficult jumps, are 2nd tier. So US is not that far back from Russia and Japan.

What i absolutely object to, is people trying to hold back, or unfairly critique, the Russians/Japanese instead of catching up on the US's side. Those girls who can not do 3-3's, and are not willing to or not able to learn 3A and quads, in ANY country, are absolutely free to skate for fun, nobody is stopping them, but they will NOT win medals, it is their choice - work hard or skate for fun. Life is tough and then you die......

Agree

 

[melanieg]

There are definitely multiple philosophical rifts on this board!

The thing is, 3-3s are not some crazy feat, and the better skaters can do them. If you want to compete with the better skaters, and if the USFS wants to actually compete internationally, then it should send skaters out who can at least do 3-3s. If you have that competitive mindset, you're not going to be holding back on 3-3s as a Novice just to win for that moment. You're going to want to get as much experience as you can with them, splats and all, so that when you're a junior and senior it's like, why wouldn't I do two 3-3s?

Yes, it's harder to spend time developing all skating skills when you have to train for consistent 3-3s. But isn't that the point of competition? To try to eventually do it all? Triple-triples are a BASELINE for competing internationally.

Same goes for Amber and the 3A. Why not do it at nationals, for heaven's sake? What did she have to lose? If she has any intention of competing with it internationally, she needs to go for it, get the experience.

I don't think the little bonus points work as motivation because USFS judging easily finds ways to work around that and prop up skaters who don't push for more tech.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don't think the little bonus points work as motivation because USFS judging easily finds ways to work around that and prop up skaters who don't push for more tech.

I think on the contrary.... and that's why Alysa Liu, while still a junior, wither 3A, won US Senior Nationals not once but twice...

 

[tony]

I think on the contrary.... and that's why Alysa Liu, while still a junior, wither 3A, won US Senior Nationals not once but twice...

Tinami, I think there's a side discussion about giving bonuses for certain jumps, which the USFS has never done on the senior level.

The reworking of the GOE directly tied to the element gives a lot of 'extra' TES when the skaters do the difficult jumps well. I think we are all in agreement of this being a good thing, while I personally don't see the need for any bonus points on top of that.

Liu won in big part because of her base value being so far ahead. I think that in itself is enough.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Holy Cow, can’t I peace out for an hour, OK or maybe two, pour a nice smooth whiskey before the conversations go this deep? I can’t even catch up

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Only Bradie and Alysa are doing anything comparable to the Russians and Japanese overall. Everyone else is like 20 years behind

Amber Glenn anyone?

Good Lord she had the highest base technical points scheduled last night. No one else is attempting triple axels this weekend but her