ISU statement on Mariah Bell and Eun soo Lim

[Meoima]

I am still confused why would ATS put that bullying accusation in there without any evidence or explanation... if they truly believe their story, it’s one thing. But if they put it out there just for the sake of a sensation... then it’s super dumb.

 

[VGThuy]

I am still confused why would ATS put that bullying accusation in there without any evidence or explanation... if they truly believe their story, it’s one thing. But if they put it out there just for the sake of a sensation... then it’s super dumb.

It is weird how there's no follow-up, but I guess they don't need to provide anything else. All of the people they bamboozled into believing that story is doing the work for them, even now.

 

[meer]

US skaters being the literal worst people alive is a constant thing with them. Listen to their US Nationals Podcast for more of their nastiness (yes I'm biased about the person they were most nasty to, sue me) And it's not like I don't know who they are and what they say on their twitters constantly.

Anyway, listen to Flutzes and Waxels.

And ATS did raise Eunsoo's profile quite a bit in Korea with this I'd say. So maybe it works out for her as long and Raf let's her stay.

 

[starrynight]

Yeah, the Twitter/Tumblr crowd is VERY cliquish about who is acceptable and who isn't. They salivate at the thought of "cancelling" a skater because it usually conveniently coincides with hating a skater they already disliked for various reasons. It's a major part of fan culture overall (outside of skating as well). Fans feel really entitled to access and knowing public figures and if the public figure is uber friendly and looks like a very nice person, then they'll love them forever and want to protect them hate those who are in that figure's way.

Yes this. And the weird knots of logic people will tie themselves into do find a reason to act like this. Heaven help any skater that somehow finds themselves in the path of this. Usually these groups of individuals mentally back themselves with the idea that they know best and they have moral obligation to 'punish' the skater in question for whatever it is they have convicted them of. I often think that this is all just a good reminder that no matter how civilised we think we are, we are only a few good meals away from re-instituing public hangings.

It seems silly, because on here that is all largely ignored. But it does make me feel bad sometimes, because social media is usually skaters' main form of interaction with fans day to day (outside of attending competitions) and I do hope that the weirdness on social media is not influencing how they perceive the wider culture of fans.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Ugggg Im so over (getting over) all this.

I dont care if Eun soo, her Mom, her Grandma, her PR team or her spirit animal created the drama...I hope Team Raf says "Gurl, Bieeeee!"

There's consequences for who you surround yourself with.

How nice the USA welcomed her and her Mom and this is what they (her team) pull.

Ugggg who wants this drama she now brings... and who wants to skate next to her in training... My thought would be like.. Whats her Momma gonna say or do now?

With their lies a skater got death threats, labeled a racist.... etc completely unacceptable....

I also do not understand when people say Eun soo is the future... How? she is already a senior. And as far as I know no 3 axels or quads... while a fine skater (in a Nancy Kerrigan kinda way) I dont see future from her.

 

[Spun Silver]

Um, what is canceling? The Urban Dictionary is my friend but it offers conflicting meanings.

I hate this kind of fan extremism.

 

[okokok777]

I just finished reading the transcript of the ITL podcast. I wasn't super impressed for a number of reasons:

1. They seemed to imply that Eunsoo and Mariah were receiving equal amounts of hate messages and vitriol online. A quick glance on Twitter, YouTube and Instagram (before Mariah made her account private) will show otherwise.

2. They didn't really discuss rink etiquette or the fact that Mariah had the right of way and technically Eunsoo should have been aware of where Mariah was and/or yielded. (I'm not blaming Eunsoo btw - she probably thought that she was close enough to the boards to avoid any collision and Mariah may have been a bit "overzealous" and thought there was enough room to skate around Eunsoo)

3. While I greatly appreciated the sympathy they expressed towards Eunsoo, they didn't really extend those same feelings towards Mariah. Neither of those girls should have received such disturbing messages (more so Mariah, her family and friends), regardless of what's truly going on behind the scenes.

Bullying is a very serious offense and all allegations should be properly investigated. However, I am very disappointed in the actions of ATS. If the alleged bullying was as severe as they stated (different locker rooms, different practice sessions, Eunsoo's team viewing the collision as purposeful) and they felt that the media/filing a complaint with the KSU/ISU was their final option, why wouldn't they have some form of evidence that RAF, Vera or the rink was informed about the bullying (emails, text messages, etc.)? They're frankly unprofessional behavior has negatively impacted Mariah AND Eunsoo.

With that said, I was also disappointed by the reactions of members of the skating community. One person's hero can be another person's nightmare. People are complex beings and just because you think somebody is "a really nice person" or you haven't personally witnessed something, it doesn't mean that it's not true. I understand that RAF was probably super stressed and frustrated by the whole situation, but I thought that his icy reception of Eunsoo in the K&C was very inappropriate.

Also IIRC @Spun Silver "cancelling" is when a fan decides to no longer support someone (usually a celebrity or public figure) financially/digitally/morally due to some "transgression". I personally have mixed opinions on cancel culture. There are certain people that I will not support due to their heinous actions (Harvey Weinstein, Mike Tyson, etc.) However, the liberal use of "cancelling" public figures for comparatively trivial mistakes is really toxic. It assumes that people are incapable of change and doesn't allow for growth.

P.S. Most of my knowledge of "cancel" culture comes from Black Twitter so I apologize if my definition is not wholly accurate XD

 

[Marco]

I am surprsied and disappointed that neither US Fed nor Korean Fed had published anything in this regard since Worlds ended (a week ago).

 

[CaliSteve]

Fans feel really entitled to access and knowing public figures and if the public figure is uber friendly and looks like a very nice person, then they'll love them forever and want to protect them hate those who are in that figure's way.

You just described 99% of the skating fans.

 

[CaliSteve]

US skaters being the literal worst people alive is a constant thing with them. Listen to their US Nationals Podcast for more of their nastiness (yes I'm biased about the person they were most nasty to, sue me) And it's not like I don't know who they are and what they say on their twitters constantly.

Anyway, listen to Flutzes and Waxels.

And ATS did raise Eunsoo's profile quite a bit in Korea with this I'd say. So maybe it works out for her as long and Raf let's her stay.

Yeah. That episode was too much. They went on and on about the scores. They dont like Nathan, but they are careful on how they word their distaste. They hate Vincent and they dont mince words.

Like I said they hide their venom behind a facade.

 

[CaliSteve]

I am surprsied and disappointed that neither US Fed nor Korean Fed had published anything in this regard since Worlds ended (a week ago).

There's nothing really to publish and they just want it to go away.

 

[CaliSteve]

With that said, I was also disappointed by the reactions of members of the skating community. One person's hero can be another person's nightmare. People are complex beings and just because you think somebody is "a really nice person" or you haven't personally witnessed something, it doesn't mean that it's not true.

Alot of the reactions were emotional, but it was in response to attack after attack. So you have to put things in context. I wrote something on Adam's Instagram stating the girls should be left alone so they can concentrate. I must have received 25 DM personally attacking me, telling me that I have self hatred because Im Asian and not supporting Eunsoo, one accusing me of being a Chinese bully (Im not Chinese), that Im an old 30 year old (Im older, so that made me happy) and all this other crazy shit. Im sure Im not the only one that received these messages.

I agree that just because someone is a "nice person" doesn't mean they arent capable of doing shitty things. But you shouldn't automatically cancel someone's opinion, especially if they personally know this person. Also, lets not forget these allegations came from a ATS Press Release, not Eunoo or her family.

I understand that RAF was probably super stressed and frustrated by the whole situation, but I thought that his icy reception of Eunsoo in the K&C was very inappropriate.

People read too much into Raf's reaction. He had Mariah on the ice and needed to get to her.

However, the liberal use of "cancelling" public figures for comparatively trivial mistakes is really toxic. It assumes that people are incapable of change and doesn't allow for growth.

What do you mean by "liberal" use. Is that the same as "conservative" use?

 

[CaliSteve]

Main problem for me in their discussion about Lim/Bell incident is not their views of how the accident happened. It very much bothers me how they address the supposed "bullying". One girl makes a (supposedly) "cold or uncomfortable (Lim) environment at the rink" synonymous with "bullying", hinting how a more friendly environment should be, pretty much, forced upon the rink's old timers, just because Lim is uncomfortable.

My problem is they are full of shit. I think they realize there was no bullying but they had to pick apart something and make it look like its a form of bullying, which I find completely offensive on so many levels.

"Friendliness and niceness" can not be made mandatory or demanded. Basic civil behavior is always required, but you can not force people to create "a friendly environment", respectful yes, friendly is optional. People have a righ to be "cold" to others, but not "rude or offensive".

I agree. You can be "cold" yet professional. I do it all the time at work

 

[okokok777]

Alot of the reactions were emotional, but it was in response to attack after attack. So you have to put things in context. I wrote something on Adam's Instagram stating the girls should be left alone so they can concentrate. I must have received 25 DM personally attacking me, telling me that I have self hatred because Im Asian and not supporting Eunsoo, one accusing me of being a Chinese bully (Im not Chinese), that Im an old 30 year old (Im older, so that made me happy) and all this other crazy shit. Im sure Im not the only one that received these messages.

I agree that just because someone is a "nice person" doesn't mean they arent capable of doing shitty things. But you shouldn't automatically cancel someone's opinion, especially if they personally know this person. Also, lets not forget these allegations came from a ATS Press Release, not Eunoo or her family.



People read too much into Raf's reaction. He had Mariah on the ice and needed to get to her.




What do you mean by "liberal" use. Is that the same as "conservative" use?

@CaliSteve Thank you for the thoughtful response. I can definitely see your first point - Mariah was receiving thousands of disgusting messages and her friends, coach and fellow skaters were responding. For example, I really appreciated Adam's tweet ( They’re on the ice at the same time every day and share the same locker room that I also sit in. ) as it was direct evidence against an assertion made by ATS.

I didn't mean to cancel anyone's opinion on Mariah and I apologize if my post came off that way. I work as a sexual assault and domestic violence counselor in my "real" life and I've seen the "nice person" defense used SO many times in response to an accusation of abuse. People that are good to one person could be terrible to another person. I'm NOT saying that this is the case with Mariah - I'm just saying that I don't find comments like "look at her - does she look like she could hurt anyone" very convincing.

As for Raf's reaction, I believe that Mariah had already skated (her staring number was 20 and Eunsoo's was 21). I think that's why he wasn't with Mariah in the K&C but he was with Eunsoo. I know that Raf is known for having cold reactions to skaters when he's not happy with their performance (such as Nathan after the Olympics SP or Ashley W. whenever she had a rough skate), but Eunsoo's FS wasn't actually too bad (she fell on the flip and had a small step out on a combination but she was able to add a 3T to her second 3Lz after missing her first combo).

Also, referring to Mariah as "'Mariah" and "Bell" while referring to Eunsoo as "Lim" and "the Korean girl" in an interview while this all went down was not a great look (Source)

When I said "liberal use" I meant "generous" i.e. some fans are very quick to "cancel" public figures for a variety of reasons (some that I personally find trivial).

 

[Japanfan]

You call us whiners but look at some the American/european P/C fans crying and whining in the Olympic ice dance thread when tessa and scott won over papadakis/cizeron calling scott "stuck up" for celebrating and "glad they were going to retire now" one big whine fest.

I'm sure there are some Russians and Canadians who also root for P/C.

or how American fans drone on and on about how nancy kerrigan was "robbed"?

You are making a huge generalization here. There are plenty of Americans and Canadians (including myself) who agree with Oksana's gold, or at least understand.

The people who tend to root specifically for skaters from their countries tend to be those who watch FS once every four years at their Olympics (an example being the Korean fans bussed in and out just to watch a Korean skater's performance - I saw that at 2010 Vancouver). More knowledgeable/informed fans don't always root for skaters from their countries to win. I root for some Canadian skaters but don't always care about how they do, and sometimes prefer a non-Canadian skater to one from my country (e.g. Urmanov versus Stokjo, and I'm a big Stojko fan.) And when Chartrand won Nationals I thought 'oh no' - expecting her to have a melt-down at Worlds, which she did.

or how russians drone on and on about Slutskaya being robbed of gold?
or how russians drone on about plushenko being robbed?
or how americans drone on and on about Linda fratianne being robbed?

More large generalizations.

do tell me how have the canadian fans the whiniest for decades?

It's easy to pick on Canadians because we have a much smaller population than the US. We make a convenient scapegoat.

I can add more situations to the "was robbed" list, from Russian side and etc..

My point exactly.

Main problem for me in their discussion about Lim/Bell incident is not their views of how the accident happened. It very much bothers me how they address the supposed "bullying". One girl makes a (supposedly) "cold or uncomfortable (Lim) environment at the rink" synonymous with "bullying", hinting how a more friendly environment should be, pretty much, forced upon the rink's old timers, just because Lim is uncomfortable.

Much ado about nothing, IMO.

 

[Sylvia]

Slightly off-topic... "NEW BALANCE, a global sports brand, has signed a sponsorship agreement with six 'Kim Yu-na Kids' figure skaters who are active in the world." - article in Korean: http://www.newstown.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=404638

L to R in the top photo: Soyoun Park, Yelim Kim, Eunsoo Lim, Dabin Choi, June Hyoung Lee - does anyone recognize the one on far right with her hand on June Hyoung's shoulder? The other 5 are all ATS clients and listed on their website.

 

[all_empty]

Slightly off-topic... "NEW BALANCE, a global sports brand, has signed a sponsorship agreement with six 'Kim Yu-na Kids' figure skaters who are active in the world." - article in Korean: http://www.newstown.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=404638

L to R in the top photo: Soyoun Park, Yelim Kim, Eunsoo Lim, Dabin Choi, June Hyoung Lee - does anyone recognize the one on far right with her hand on June Hyoung's shoulder? The other 5 are all ATS clients and listed on their website.

Haein Lee?

Apologies if that's wrong as skaters can look quite different off-ice.

 

[skateboy]

I have to say, this mess with ATS has affected the way I feel about Eunsoo as a skater. The allegations--and resulting attacks--against Mariah (with absolutely zero proof) have been so damaging and over-the-top despicable, it just really angers and saddens me.

Yes, I do realize that Eunsoo may be an innocent victim of her crazy management's publicity scheme. I don't harbor any ill will against the girl... I simply won't be rooting for her in the future. I'm sorry, but they just went too far.

 

[Vagabond]

Entire post

Eys.

This is no time for Eun Soo Lim to remain silent. She needs to speak up. It's a big responsibility for a sixteen-year-old girl, but she needs to say whether she stands with her coach and Mariah Bell or if she stands with ATS.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

I might be covering old ground, but here's the thing. Bell and Lim practice together daily, right? That means that they essentially have each other's programs memorized. Each knows exactly where (on the ice) the other is at any given moment, at least as long as their music is playing. Bell was doing her run-through during that practice session at the Worlds. That gives her the right-of-way. So how was it that Lim was in that spot at that moment? She had plenty of advanced notice that Bell was coming. You can see that from the video. On top of that, Lim had to know which way Bell was headed, better than anyone else on the ice. Lim knows Bell's program by heart, as would anyone else who regularly skates on her sessions.

 

[Madhatter]

I might be covering old ground, but here's the thing. Bell and Lim practice together daily, right? That means that they essentially have each other's programs memorized. Each knows exactly where (on the ice) the other is at any given moment, at least as long as their music is playing. Bell was doing her run-through during that practice session at the Worlds. That gives her the right-of-way. So how was it that Lim was in that spot at that moment? She had plenty of advanced notice that Bell was coming. You can see that from the video. On top of that, Lim had to know which way Bell was headed, better than anyone else on the ice. Lim knows Bell's program by heart, as would anyone else who regularly skates on her sessions.

She was by the boards. Not exactly "in that spot".

I don't think it's "plenty of advance notice" when you're standing as close to the boards as you can, minding your own business, and not expecting somebody, even somebody with the right of way, to bump/cut you.

I think you're wrong in your assumption that they know each other programs "by heart". I find it extremely unlikely that skaters have one another's programs memorized to such a degree as to know in which point of the rink another skater would be in any given moment. Even if they train together. That would be an almost ninja level of spatial awarenss.

But it was a nice try at pushing the blame of getting injured by another on Lim. A bit transparent, but serviceable.

 

[misskarne]

She was by the boards. Not exactly "in that spot".

I don't think it's "plenty of advance notice" when you're standing as close to the boards as you can, minding your own business, and not expecting somebody, even somebody with the right of way, to bump/cut you.

I think you're wrong in your assumption that they know each other programs "by heart". I find it extremely unlikely that skaters have one another's programs memorized to such a degree as to know in which point of the rink another skater would be in any given moment. Even if they train together. That would be an almost ninja level of spatial awarenss.

But it was a nice try at pushing the blame of getting injured by another on Lim. A bit transparent, but serviceable.

You do realise it was Eunsoo's responsibility to be aware of Mariah, right? If Mariah had right of way, it is the responsibility of every other skater on that ice to make sure they are not in the way of that skater. All Eunsoo had to do was scuttle forwards - even one step would do! and she wouldn't have been clipped. If Eunsoo was drifting obliviously by the boards, then yes, that is a problem - especially if her people are going to spin wild lies about a vicious assault and set the attack dogs on the other skater!

 

[BittyBug]

I don't think it's "plenty of advance notice" when you're standing as close to the boards as you can, minding your own business, and not expecting somebody, even somebody with the right of way, to bump/cut you.

You must not be a skater because if you were you would know that there is no "minding your own business" while you are on the ice. If you want to "mind our own business" you step off the ice. Otherwise, when you are on the ice you are supposed to remain alert at all times because people are moving around at high rates of speeds with sharp objects attached to their feet.

Also, right of way means right of way. When a skater is doing his or her program it is the responsibility of everyone else on the ice to keep an eye on that skater and get.out.of.the.way. Period. Not up for discussion.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

So Raf hasn't sent Lim packing yet? I find that even more shocking that US Fed's impotent reaction to the situation.

 

[skatingguy]

So Raf hasn't sent Lim packing yet? I find that even more shocking that US Fed's impotent reaction to the situation.

I don't really think there's anything that the USFSA could do. The KSU filed a verbal complaint with the ISU which the ISU looked at the evidence and release a statement saying that there was nothing to the incident during the practice session. Until someone files a complaint with the USFSA or a written complaint with the ISU the best decision the USFSA could make is to remain silent.

 

[Vagabond]

So Raf hasn't sent Lim packing yet? I find that even more shocking that US Fed's impotent reaction to the situation.

How do you know he hasn't?

 

[Johnny_Fever]

I think you're wrong in your assumption that they know each other programs "by heart". I find it extremely unlikely that skaters have one another's programs memorized to such a degree as to know in which point of the rink another skater would be in any given moment. Even if they train together. That would be an almost ninja level of spatial awarenss.

Spoken like a non-skater.

But it was a nice try at pushing the blame of getting injured by another on Lim.

I'm not necessarily pushing the blame. Just stating that there's more to it than the video alone indicates.

A bit transparent, but serviceable.

That's a weird statement. Do you prefer vague comments?

 

[skateboy]

She was by the boards. Not exactly "in that spot".

I don't think it's "plenty of advance notice" when you're standing as close to the boards as you can, minding your own business, and not expecting somebody, even somebody with the right of way, to bump/cut you.

I think you're wrong in your assumption that they know each other programs "by heart". I find it extremely unlikely that skaters have one another's programs memorized to such a degree as to know in which point of the rink another skater would be in any given moment. Even if they train together. That would be an almost ninja level of spatial awarenss.

But it was a nice try at pushing the blame of getting injured by another on Lim. A bit transparent, but serviceable.

No, no, NO.

Eunsoo was near the boards (not at the boards), skating slowly forward, not looking at where Mariah or anyone else was. Every other skater on the ice was well out of Mariah's way. Eunsoo had plenty of time to skate to anywhere else on the rink... she just wasn't watching. Even if Eunsoo had suffered a major, bleeding gash (as opposed to the small bump that took nothing more than a band-aid to fix), she should have apologized to Mariah.

And yes, skaters that train together indeed know one another's programs THAT well. I've been there. Any of us that skate or have skated knows this to be true. At one of my rinks, if you were in the way of anyone's run-through--even if you got knocked down as a result--you had to go sit down for 30 minutes before being allowed to practice again.

But it was a nice try at pushing the blame onto Mariah, who did absolutely nothing wrong.

 

[Willin]

I mean, I don't know the programs of other skaters I train with by heart, and I never did, but by the end of the competition season I sure as heck knew where they were on the ice at each part of their program and where they were headed based on musical cues.

And the only time I ever completely "mind my own business" on ice is when I'm by some miracle the only person on it. Whether you have a synchro background like me or have always skated singles, spatial awareness on the ice is pretty much skating 101: you HAVE to know where everyone else is. If you are an elite skater you should know and be aware of this more than anyone because you're the one with the most potential to crash into any given person at high speeds. Especially at Worlds you have to be aware and alert everyone on that session is zooming around and there's a lot of potential for disaster. Obviously accidents still happen, but it's ALWAYS your job to mind everyone's business to minimize those accidents.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

Let's say I'm doing a run-through, and I pass somebody who is very familiar with the way my program is laid out. At the very least, they'll know that my music is playing. They know that gives me the right-of-way. If they appear to be completely oblivious to my whereabouts at a time like that, I might get a little annoyed. I might pass by them a bit closer than necessary, just to make a point. We all know that skating blades are dangerous. We've all gotten inadvertently spiked over the years. But the adrenaline of being at a competition might cause us to misjudge distances a bit.

Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it.