U.S. Ladies [#25]: Method in the Madness

[Bonita]

She has a pet bunny. It's really cute. She's always posting pics and videos of it.

I'm a longtime bunny momma and just checked out her Instagram and her bunny is super cute!

The bunny gets to eat Romaine and Mariah has a Romain. Hubba hubba! I had no idea she had a boyfriend.

 

[natsulian]

Starr needs a vehicle to channel the raw talent and her Long highlighted the weaknesses and not the strengths of Starr's skating. Starr is a lyrical and powerful skater, capable of taking advantage of music which slowly crescendos, not a limp, snooze-fest with very little musical variation.

 

[aftershocks]

Best of luck to Gracie for finding grace and meaningful purpose in all she does. And happiness too!

The thing about figure skating is that it's singularly tough with only small windows of opportunity. There's nothing wrong with continuing to fight for one's hopes and dreams, because in taking the journey that will be where one's victories are found.

 

[aftershocks]

I'm happy to see Amber and Starr skating so well at Challenge Cup. It's always helpful to remember that the sp is the sp and the fp has to be skated well too. I wish Amber could find the strength and determination to be consistent throughout two performances. It was good to see Amber being validated when she skates well. Certainly, she has the great overall talent and tech ability to be right up there with the top skaters in the world. But she has to persevere and believe in herself.

ITA that Amber's fp might be too difficult to perform on all cylinders if she gets distracted by the lyrics. But it's probably more that she loses focus and gets nervous when she's right there, so close to medaling. It's sad that she couldn't at least make the podium. Her skating skills are better than Starr's, but Starr was more consistent. What Amber truly needs to work on more than anything else is confidence, self-belief, and learning how to close the deal and take no prisoners.

It's interesting to see Starr go back to last year's fp. It was a good fp for her, but I didn't particularly see her skate it with any excitement or verve at Challenge Cup. She did get through it fairly well and it's a great season-ending boost of confidence for her. Although it's lovely that Starr medaled, her URs have got to get resolved.

IMHO, all skaters should read Maribel Y. Vinson's Primer of Figure Skating, and practice the teachings therein. IOW, learn how to skate. The book is as relevant today as it was when it was published in 1938, especially when it comes to understanding the basic foundations of figure skating.

 

[Frau Muller]

As much as i liked the idea behind her new FS, she seems to like the old one much more, so it is good she is using it.

I hope she overcomes this slump and becomes a real star. I do enjoy watching her skating very much.

She needs to always SING her LP!

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I thought Starr's FS this season was really neat (though it could have used some fine-tuning with the song choices) and I was surprised/bummed to see she went back to last season's program.

 

[RoseRed]

I thought Starr's FS this season was really neat (though it could have used some fine-tuning with the song choices) and I was surprised/bummed to see she went back to last season's program.

I liked the idea of it, but I don’t think it ever really worked. She never performed it to its full effect imo.

 

[kwanatic]

So Rika is still undefeated internationally this season... A win at worlds will make it a clean sweep.

Very happy to see Starr turn her season around at the end. She's bursting with talent but it's up to her and her team to elevate her skating to the next level if she hopes to remain competitive in the coming years.

Happy to see Wakaba earn a medal too. It's been a rough year for her as well. Fingers crossed she'll get back to her old self next season.

Oh Amber...still not there yet. Shame she wasn't able to get a spot on the podium. Hopefully something will change for her soon.

 

[ZilphaK]

Topic change: is there any info yet on what the TES minimums will be to participate in 2020 Nationals or any guesstimate of what would make sense for US Women?

 

[concorde]

My guess is it will be set around 120 combined. I just looked at ild Nationals results to see how many ladies did not reach that number (i know this is flawed since you should really use Sectional scores but I am lazy). I did not count those that withdrew after the short.

In 2015, 2 ladies did not reach 120. 3rd lowest was 129.
In 2016, 4 ladies were under 110. 5th lowest was 120.
In 2017, all did. Lowest was 127.
In 2018, 1 did not reach 120. Next lowest was 122.
In 2019, all did. Lowest was 133.

So over the last 5 years, 7 ladies would be excluded assuming that their sectional scores were similar to their National scores.

I will acknowledge the scoring system has changed over the past 5 years so this is not a true apples to apples comparison.

 

[aftershocks]

I thought Starr's FS this season was really neat (though it could have used some fine-tuning with the song choices) and I was surprised/bummed to see she went back to last season's program.

I liked the idea of it, but I don’t think it ever really worked. She never performed it to its full effect imo.

Yes, I too liked the concept and the music of Starr's original FS for this season, and I loved her fp costume which was so gorgeous on her. The problem was in the performing of the program, and in the need to tweak some of the choreo and how the selections were fitting with the choreo and the tech layout. I said awhile ago that I thought it would have helped had Starr received some assistance from African dance experts re getting more into the moves of the program performance-wise. Probably the program was too challenging for her to tackle at this stage of her development. Maybe they can revisit at a later date.

Meanwhile, someone needs to gift Starr a copy of Maribel Y Vinson's Primer of Figure Skating and ensure she reads it, practices the lessons and tips therein, and then applies those lessons in her competitive career. The same goes for Tarah Kayne, and many other skaters.

 

[ZilphaK]

My guess is it will be set around 120 combined. I just looked at ild Nationals results to see how many ladies did not reach that number (i know this is flawed since you should really use Sectional scores but I am lazy). I did not count those that withdrew after the short.

In 2015, 2 ladies did not reach 120. 3rd lowest was 129.
In 2016, 4 ladies were under 110. 5th lowest was 120.
In 2017, all did. Lowest was 127.
In 2018, 1 did not reach 120. Next lowest was 122.
In 2019, all did. Lowest was 133.

So over the last 5 years, 7 ladies would be excluded assuming that their sectional scores were similar to their National scores.

I will acknowledge the scoring system has changed over the past 5 years so this is not a true apples to apples comparison.

So, by combined, you are saying the FS and SP scores combined? I thought they were going to just use the TES score, maybe set a minimum for TES in both the SP and the FS, focusing more on whether a skater has a certain technical skill set (possibly because it's a little less "open to interpretation") before adding in the PCS.

 

[gkelly]

Meanwhile, someone needs to gift Starr a copy of Maribel Y Vinson's Primer of Figure Skating and ensure she reads it, practices the lessons and tips therein, and then applies those lessons in her competitive career.

Why that book specifically? There have been lots of how-to books on skating from the 19th and 20th centuries, from different experts' perspectives. Vinson herself wrote more than one. What makes this book more applicable to today's skaters than any of the others?

Some of the lessons and tips therein, which I'm sure will come in handy for a 21st century competitive career:

Shorts are all right for the youngsters while they are practicing school figures but should be completely discarded for dancing and free skating, where the swish of a well-cut skirt adds so much to the grace of the movement.

Because school-figure competition usually takes several hours in a cold rink,it is more than wise, indeed it is a physical necessity, to wear wool....The sipping of hot tea between figures is another muscle warmer that many seasoned competitors have found useful.

The best way of gaining speed [for spirals] is literally to take short running steps on the flat of the skate. Turn the toes out on each step, so that you hit the inside of your edge, and run. At first you will probably feel that this Charlie Chaplin toe-out run makes you look ridiculously clumsy (I know I did), but the truth is that if you move your feet really fast the onlooker does not see your toes go out at all, and you will gain tremendous speed.

 

[wickedwitch]

So over the last 5 years, 7 ladies would be excluded assuming that their sectional scores were similar to their National scores.

My guess is that in every single one of those cases, they had a higher sectionals score. Otherwise they would not have qualified. But I haven't actually checked.

 

[concorde]

So, by combined, you are saying the FS and SP scores combined? I thought they were going to just use the TES score, maybe set a minimum for TES in both the SP and the FS, focusing more on whether a skater has a certain technical skill set (possibly because it's a little less "open to interpretation") before adding in the PCS.

Who knows what they will decide.

What I have observed is that the US seems to weigh artistry more that the international community so I think USFS will not go by TES alone.

 

[concorde]

My guess is that in every single one of those cases, they had a higher sectionals score. Otherwise they would not have qualified. But I haven't actually checked.

Maybe and maybe not.
Certain Sections are much stronger than others at the Senior level. In the weaker Sectionals, the weakest 1 or 2 may not have had a bad skate at Nationals; it may be more a matter that the levels of the competitions was not as fierce getting there.

This is what I have observed over time. At the Juvenile level, skaters from Easterns tends to be the strongest and West coast skaters are the weakest. But by Seniors, West Coast and Mid-Western skaters are the strongest and Eastern skaters are the weakest.

 

[Coco]

The problem is that PCS are quite fungible so that could lead to some really inflated marks that prove nothing.

 

[concorde]

i get what you are saying regarding PSC score, but TES also depend on the caller and how strict they want to be. Sad but true.

Nationals (regardless of the country) do have very generous scores.

 

[concorde]

I was pondering this some more. I think they really need to go with combined scores.

If they go with TES, what happens if the 4th place finisher does not have the minimum but the 5th place finisher does? Do you just take the top 3 overall scores OR do you take the top 4 TES scores which means the overall 5th place advances but the 4th place does not?

 

[Coco]

Hmmm...good point.

Maybe combined scores with some really basic element requirements? Like successful 2a, edge triple, toe triple, three different types of triples overall, triple in combination, minimum L2 steps and minimum L3 spins (fly, combo & one position).

If they meet the combined score and achieve those elements over the course of both the SP and FS, they would qualify.

 

[concorde]

The list of summer competitions in the new pipeline series is to be posted March 1.

I wonder if that will provide any information on the "minimum" scores.

 

[aftershocks]

Why that book specifically? There have been lots of how-to books on skating from the 19th and 20th centuries, from different experts' perspectives. Vinson herself wrote more than one. What makes this book more applicable to today's skaters than any of the others?

Some of the lessons and tips therein, which I'm sure will come in handy for a 21st century competitive career:

Okay now @gkelly, for sure the excerpts you cite tongue-in-cheek are pretty funny. But I didn't say that everything in Vinson's 1938 book is relevant to today's skaters. I was also trying to avoid writing a long post. But since you've decided to provoke, I will point out in a separate thread the passages that I think are very relevant to the piss-poor skating we often see today. And that's taking nothing away from the fact that in many respects the sport has evolved in a good way, and surely even in ways that Vinson at that point couldn't possibly have imagined. In any case though, Vinson was a remarkable woman, a superb athlete, and a leader ahead of her time. When she wrote the 1938 book, Vinson had not yet married Canadian skater, Guy Owen, so that's why I only reference her maiden name.

The sad fact is that the decision to completely scrap figures from 1990 onward, was bonehead and not well thought out. It was based on catering to television network coverage. It was a good decision to drop figures from singles event competition, but everyone should still have been required to understand and to apply the basic foundations of practicing figures. That's why, in recent years, we had the very gifted Patrick Chan bless the sport with his rare expertise. And yes, not everyone guided to practice figures the way Patrick had been would necessarily have been as good as he was in SS. Yet surely many skaters today would benefit if they diligently practiced figures, and at the very least, they might be more knowledgeable about skating if they better understood the concept of and the necessity behind figures practice.

In addition, I don't see any reason why the sport failed to have the foresight to continue funding figures competition separately, at least in some way for those who were interested in continuing to pursue that basic foundational aspect of the sport. There's no good reason, aside from the obvious fact that speed skaters who knew nothing and still know nothing about figure skating, began to wrest control of the sport away from figure skaters.

I think it's quite interesting that Vinson's passages about skaters wanting to advance quickly to jumping before mastering other basic skills is as relevant today, as it was in 1938 and beyond. Of course, the irony is (and has probably always been) that if skaters would actually spend more time on the basics of learning how to skate, maybe they could become better and more consistent jumpers.

I will also start a separate thread in Moves in the Field since this conversation is not directly on-topic here and I'm not sure whether starting a separate thread in GSD about Vinson's book would be considered appropriate. Before moving the conversation to MITF however, I will reference in another post here some timely and relevant passages from Vinson's 1938 book, since you asked.

 

[WillyElliot]

Starr needs a vehicle to channel the raw talent and her Long highlighted the weaknesses and not the strengths of Starr's skating. Starr is a lyrical and powerful skater, capable of taking advantage of music which slowly crescendos, not a limp, snooze-fest with very little musical variation.

I was pleasantly surprised that I really liked her SP there. Her original LP only highlighted her weaknesses. Problem is, she has novice level content. Starr is so lucky there isn't a factory of juniors coming down the pike that would easily displace her like with Russia.

 

[aftershocks]

Obviously, it makes sense to read Vinson's book with a clear eye to what actually might apply and be of aid to today's skaters. I think it might be helpful to Starr if she had someone who could assist her in understanding and practicing good blade skills that would involve better control of edges and developing softer knees. But that goes for a lot of skaters too, not just Starr. Alina Zagitova comes to mind, with her ugly cross-overs and poor jump technique. And Tarah Kayne, with her choppy skating and lack of speed.

Maribel Vinson, Primer of Figure Skating, Introduction, p4 (original edition):

*Today, that would probably read 'quadruple revolution jumps'
“My instructors used to say, 'Show me how you do an outside forward edge [the first figure in skating] and I will tell you just how good a skater you are.' Even though a skater may do double-revolution jumps* in the air and spin faster than a whirling dervish, (s)he is not a true skater unless (s)he has the gliding stroke, the effortless speed, the 'soft' knee and ankle, the graceful form, and the correct way of putting his skate upon the ice that come only from a thorough education in the first few fundamental figures.

"There are champions and near champions today who will do well to read over the instructions that follow on how to push off and how to complete the forward and backward strokes. Choppy steps and an unnatural style are usually the result of trying to become an advanced skater too soon. Once the fundamental figures are really mastered so that they are done with control, even speed, and correct form, the advanced figures come twice as quickly and they will then automatically be done with control, even speed, and correct form. Walking comes before running. A good primary figure comes before an advanced figure, and conversely, a half-mastered primary figure means many half-mastered advanced figures. Therefore, although the figures described in this book are only a small part of figure skating as a whole, they are by far the most important part.”

Now obviously, figures are no longer part of competition, so spending a lot of time on primary figures is not the most productive use of time for young skaters who have so much else to learn. However, I don't see why someone doesn't find a way to adapt figures practice to the needs of current skaters, in a way that is beneficial. I don't think merely practicing stroking and moves in the field is adequate to mastering blade skills. Especially since some of the stroking is probably not being done correctly.

Also, here's a passage from Vinson's book that no longer holds true, but was true in 1938:
“There has been an increasing tendency the last few years for the ordinary non-skating spectator at ice shows to think that acrobatics on ice are figure skating. That is not true. Acrobatics on ice may be enjoyable, but they are still acrobatics and not skating. No one has to be able to do a 'split' or … an exaggerated back-bend to become a good figure skater...”

Of course acrobatics, splits and back-bends are important in today's skating. There's no way that Vinson could have foreseen the direction in which skating would venture. She would probably be okay with some of the ways in which skating has evolved. But the poor state of blade mastery and resultant inconsistency of technical skills among far too many skaters, is rather appalling. That's not an across-the-board slam, because there are quite a few skaters who have improved their flow over the ice and their SS, which has often led to them winning and to being more consistent, particularly when they also possess other compelling attributes.

In general, however, the over-abundance of URs, poor cross-overs, and choppy steps detracting from the ability to build speed that we see among some top skaters, likely has Vinson spinning in her grave on a rotisserie.

Of course, URs today are more often a result of pushing to perform difficult rotations, and being nervous under competition pressure. Perhaps a focus on mastering proper edge control would go a long way toward helping skaters who are prone to URs, even though other factors are involved in correcting the problem. In any case, 'Why not learn how to walk before running?' 'Why not master the four primary edges, before prematurely rushing to perform acrobatics?' Per Vinson: “It is always harder to break a bad habit than to learn a good one, no matter how difficult the good one may seem at first. And this is even truer of skating than of most other sports.”

I'm sure that Vinson's book was reissued and is still in print for a reason.

 

[Jammers]

I was pleasantly surprised that I really liked her SP there. Her original LP only highlighted her weaknesses. Problem is, she has novice level content. Starr is so lucky there isn't a factory of juniors coming down the pike that would easily displace her like with Russia.

Actually a couple of Juniors did displace her at Nationals this season Ting and and Hanna Harrell. If both can get more consistent i see them staying ahead of Starr since they are both better all around skaters with all the jumps and better basics.

 

[natsulian]

An article about Hanna Harrell, the 15-year-old who placed 4th at Nationals.

http://figureskatersonline.com/news...-the-world-at-the-junior-world-championships/

Key Points:
- Original coach was 1992 Olympic Pairs Champion Natalia Mishkutionok
- Current coaches are the wife and husband pair Olga Ganicheva and Alexei Latov
- Trains in Texas, moving there with her mother
- Currently trains a 3A and 4T and wants to add them next season
- Believes that to compete with the Russians, US ladies need to be consistent first then push the technical envelope
- Injury on her right foot derailed the beginning of the 2018/2019 season
- Wants to duplicate her success at Nationals and show that it was not a fluke

Funny thing to note is that Hanna's coaches actually advise against her rippon jumps, but she herself loves it so much that she decided to add it to nearly all of her jumps. We love a rebellious young lady. Good luck to both Hanna and Ting at Junior Worlds!

 

[aftershocks]

It's not a given that Starr can't improve. She needs to be provided with the tools to do so. Just like a lot of skaters need to improve many aspects of their skating, sometimes involving mental aspects, not just physical/technical aspects.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Key Points:
- Original coach was 1992 Olympic Pairs Champion Natalia Mishkutionok

This ALONE could make her my next favorite skater!!!!

 

[Spun Silver]

^ She's half-Japanese! She could become very popular in Japan. I love it that Sasha Cohen is her favorite skater.

This ALONE could make her my next favorite skater!!!!

Except that she dumped her.

 

[Frida80]

It's nice to hear a skater prioritize consistency.