U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

[mag]

His full name is Doug Haw and I thought his comments about Karen were very interesting. However, if she's doing clean run throughs of her programs then it's possible that her jump technique is fine when she's not suffering from competitive nerves. Gracie Gold had a similar problem--she would do fine run throughs and then tighten up during competitions.

I know there are reports of Karen running clean programs in practice, but the reality is, we don’t know that she is. I see many, many kids come off the ice and tell their friends, parents, etc that they just ran a clean program. I see coaches tell parents that the child just ran a clean program. All the while I am seeing jump after jump landed forward but the skater stays upright so it is “clean.” If Karen really does have the technical flaw that Doug has mentioned, and I see no reason not to believe him, then while she may sometimes land clean jumps, I suspect her percentages are about the same in practice as in competition. She may stay upright more in practice, but that doesn’t make the program any cleaner.

As for Gracie, a close friend had the opportunity a few years ago to watch Gracie practice over the course of a number of weeks. She said Gracie’s percentages with clean programs and clean 3/3’s was only a little better in practice than in competition. She certainly never saw any of these mythical clean run throughs after clean run thoughs.

 

[mag]

Every skater's situation is unique @mag. Ashley's trajectory differs from many, and it's worthy of admiration and respect IMO because she took stock and decided she was not going to give up.

While every skater’s situation is unique, it is not the least bit unique for a skater to take stock and decide she isn’t not going to give up. It is not the least bit unique for a skater to move or travel across the country or even the world to get the help they need to move their career forward.

That is what I am trying to point out. Yes, Ashley has accomplished a lot, yes, Ashley has had some amazing performances, yes, Ashley has had to work extremely hard to get where she is. The thing is, NONE of that is unique in the world of skating. It seems to me you keep talking about these things Ashley has done as a way of justifying why the judges should give her higher marks or why the USFSA should give her extra consideration. The thing is that judges see kids every day working just as hard if not harder than Ashley. They see skaters and families giving up just as much if not more than Ashley did. But at the end of the day, none of that is, or should be, taken into consideration when deciding on assignments.

 

[berthesghost]

Well, one of the things that makes Ashley a “star” is that we love rehashing her story as nausium and she’s a bit “controversial”. But, now that’s it’s all said and done, she was the most accomplished us ladies skater of the last decade and as per the Lipinski rule, no one can ever take that away from her. We’ll never know if she could have done better in Korea than those who went, but we do know that usfs made their decision on who to send and it was pretty much a complete disaster for usfs standards, although I agree we can always sink lower, just look at pairs. Or don’t look, it’s gotten too painful to even watch in recent years.

 

[honey]

As for Gracie, a close friend had the opportunity a few years ago to watch Gracie practice over the course of a number of weeks. She said Gracie’s percentages with clean programs and clean 3/3’s was only a little better in practice than in competition. She certainly never saw any of these mythical clean run throughs after clean run thoughs.

Running clean programs could entirely be dependent at what point in the season your friend viewed her skating. There is video evidence from TSL in September 2015 of Gracie running clean long programs (full program, twice in a row). Everything I’ve ever heard about her training indicated this was normal for her when she was training full out. She had dips in intensity, such as post Sochi and of course post Boston worlds.

Back to Karen, I 100% agree with Doug. With the height she gets, there should be no reason for underrotation. But she has a slow snap into the jump, and as such doesn’t really start rotating until she’s reached the top the jump. If she can fix that delay, her rotation will be there and even better, the trajectory of the jump will be better, allowed for more speed and flow into the combo.

 

[shady82]

I am not sure sending Ashley to Worlds would do the US better in terms of retaining three spots, given her mediocre record this season. I predicted after US Nationals that if someone withdrew and she got the Worlds spot, she would decline it. Not surprisingly, she did. With that said, I believe that if at least two of the three girls currently going skate a strong competition, our chance is decent. Bradie and Mirai will score well over 200 if clean, Mariah can approach 200. So our ladies have the abilities. They just need consistency, and with consistency comes higher scores.

The only noticeable strides I've seen with Raf are noticeable strides backwards. Ever going to Raf I think she's half the skater she was before.

I still don't see what 'noticeable strides backwards' everyone is talking about. Haven't her scores gone up after moving to Raf, and under him she got two trips to Worlds right? Or does one attest her higher scores to politics?

 

[Tinami Amori]

I am not sure sending Ashley to Worlds would do the US better in terms of retaining three spots, given her mediocre record this season.

To add… her coach, Rafael, in the last russian interview to EV, said:

“А Эшли, как я уже сказал, вообще плохо тренируется. Ей очень нелегко себя заставлять: она взрослая женщина, у нее женское тело. С таким телом спортсменке надо себя очень жестко держать - не все на это способны. Как тренер я сделал с Вагнер все, что мог.”

“As I said before, Ashley in general (overall) is not doing a good job at training (training badly/poorly). It’s hard for her to push herself: she is a grown woman, with a female body. With a body like that an athlete must hold to a strict discipline – not all are capable of that. As a trainer, I did all I could with Wagner.”

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/vaytskekhovskayas-interview-with-arutyunyan.103449/

 

[Yazmeen]

First off, I'm not a fan of Karen Chen, she frankly does just about nothing for me as a skater. And I am a fan of Ashley and really wanted to see her make the Olympic team this year.

That said, I stand by what I said back in January: I think Ashley went into this season with the idea that as long as she didn't fall on her ass at Nationals like she did in 2014, she was a lock for the team because she had that world medal. I just rewatched her Nationals freeskate, and despite 2 serious mistakes (the single salchow in the sequence and the double-footed, under-rotated lutz), I think she believed she'd be fine, her PCS would hold her up. Well, it didn't. And added to the botched combo in the short program, she simply didn't do enough to be in the top 3.

Ashley has competed to be on the Olympic team THREE times, and all 3 times, she finished one spot off the mark, so to speak, for the number of Olympic spots. Last time, she was given consideration based on her BOW. This time, she wasn't, because her BOW since 2016 Worlds has simply not been that great. She got outskated at Nationals, and there was no way there were going to pass over someone again to give her a spot. As said earlier, she was happy to benefit from PCS "bumps" in the past when she got them. But then she was "furious" this year when she didn't get one with a relatively untested program that she put before the judges for the first time this season, that wasn't secure, and that she didn't skate as well as she possibly could have had she stuck to it throughout the season. I still say Ashley can only blame one person for how her season ended: herself. And that's who she should really be "furious" with.

 

[Carolla5501]

Can we give up on the Ashley deserved it nonsense.


She didn’t deliver this season. End of story.

 

[RD]

To add… her coach, Rafael, in the last russian interview to EV, said:

“А Эшли, как я уже сказал, вообще плохо тренируется. Ей очень нелегко себя заставлять: она взрослая женщина, у нее женское тело. С таким телом спортсменке надо себя очень жестко держать - не все на это способны. Как тренер я сделал с Вагнер все, что мог.”

“As I said before, Ashley in general (overall) is not doing a good job at training (training badly/poorly). It’s hard for her to push herself: she is a grown woman, with a female body. With a body like that an athlete must hold to a strict discipline – not all are capable of that. As a trainer, I did all I could with Wagner.”

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/vaytskekhovskayas-interview-with-arutyunyan.103449/

Say what you will about Wagner, but definitely can't accuse her of "not fulfilling potential"...

I'm not sure what her strategy was this year, but the overall outcome isn't really much of a surprise to me honestly. After all, 2010 and 2014 were low(er) points in her career, too.

Regardless, she's had quite a career, especially by current US Ladies standards.

 

[jlai]

Had Ashley retired after 2016, people would be saying what a persevering person she is, working her butt off to get what she wants etc.
She may not be working like a Nathan Chen, but she competes year after year with no break and bringing better results than other US ladies for USFS for many years too. Others might have retired long ago.
Timing is everything. It's like you have to end on a high for people to stop picking on a career

 

[overedge]

It's like you have to end on a high have a career for people to stop picking on a career pick on you.

Fixed it for you

 

[skatfan]

So sad that Karen is injured and unable to make it to Worlds.

Has she said why she isn’t going? I haven’t seen anything.

 

[Wyliefan]

delete

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I would agree with this. When I found out she was going with MR for the 3rd time I was really worried. That was a somewhat lazy, "meh" approach to the season and it backfired. Had Bradie not shown up, it wouldn't have been an issue. But when she came onto the scene it turned everything on its head. Suddenly there's this shiny new girl with difficult jumps and consistency. That was when Ashley realized she was in trouble and went back to LLL. By that time it was too late.

Actually, a reliable source told us that Ashley showed La La Land at Champs Camp. US Skating didn't like it, and wanted her to return to Moulin Rouge instead.

 

[Sylvia]

Actually, a reliable source told us that Ashley showed La La Land at Champs Camp.

That's not what I heard from my reliable source.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Actually, a reliable source told us that Ashley showed La La Land at Champs Camp. US Skating didn't like it, and wanted her to return to Moulin Rouge instead.

I recall Ashley stating that she identifies with Satine more than with LLL's girl, and feels that during the Oly year she needs to feel a strong sense of identification with the character. And FSU had a long discussion about "identification"...

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

That's not what I heard from my reliable source.

Oh, well. What's done is done. This season has been a total bust for the ladies of Team USA.

 

[RD]

Actually, a reliable source told us that Ashley showed La La Land at Champs Camp. US Skating didn't like it, and wanted her to return to Moulin Rouge instead.

Wasn't it her coach that wanted her to go back - not USFS? At least that was the "official" Team Wagner version of the story...

 

[manhn]

Her La La Land performance is the one I rewatch from US Nats. It is funny how so few LLL programs ended up surfacing by the Olympics. Just the one. I think if Ashley skated it well in Korea, it would have generated some good buzz.

 

[Marco]

Say what you will about Wagner, but definitely can't accuse her of "not fulfilling potential"...

I'm not sure what her strategy was this year, but the overall outcome isn't really much of a surprise to me honestly. After all, 2010 and 2014 were low(er) points in her career, too.

She had the best season of all US ladies leading up to those 2 Nationals, medaling at all her GP events and making GPF both times. She just bombed at the actual Nationals, both times.

Totally called Ashley passing over Worlds ever since Nationals. The Fed wasn't supporting her anymore, why should she go and help the Fed retain a spot? She would be bitter if she did it, and be held responsible for it if she did't.

 

[aftershocks]

It seems to me you keep talking about these things Ashley has done as a way of justifying why the judges should give her higher marks or why the USFSA should give her extra consideration.

Nope @mag. That's your complete misperception and exaggeration. So be it.

It actually seems pathological the way some of you are viewing Ashley. I have a fairly grounded view of the situation. I am not on any kind of wild-eyed mission to force Ashley's achievements down anyone's throat. But some of you in opposition to Ashley really seem to harbor some serious anger against her. I find that rather mind-boggling. Oh well, you can continue to insist upon equating giving Ashley credit due with some kind of denigration of what others are doing and have done. Whatever makes you feel good @mag.

 

[overedge]

I have a fairly grounded view of the situation.

 

[RD]

Anyhow, if Wagner's tweets are any indication, she seems to be ready to move on, or at the least looking for a way to do so. Of course, that's to be expected at this stage. I doubt she competes again (possible exception: a finale skate at a future nationals).

 

[aftershocks]

... I have a fairly grounded view of the situation...

Yep, there's nothing better than a good laugh @overedge (How ever did I mistake you for @mag?) Laughter is the best medicine for what ails you. And there's apparently a lot of ailments at sway in here.

It seems past time to take out some of the over-emotional 'anger' component in the way athletes are viewed by some fans who actually do not know these young people personally. If you have met Ashley in person and reacted with immediate dislike, then continue on hating on her for what you perceive to be her shortcomings as an athlete and a human being. Or mayhap it's just dislike for me expressing my admiration for Ashley's positives. Glass half full.

To be honest, this thread apparently has always been a black hole where bitch-fests go to die. Ultimately, none of this OTT chatter has much to do with any of the athletes. Carry on. Since Ashley is now effectively out of the equation, is there anymore to say about Mirai anyone? Oh, maybe some of you are storing up your ammunition for if she doesn't do as well as you are invested in seeing her do at Worlds, in likely her final competitive turn.

Go Mirai, Bradie, Mariah! And thanks for your efforts at the Olympics Mirai, Bradie & Karen, despite the less than stellar outcome in the singles event. Sane fans realize you weren't trying to thwart fan expectations.

 

[Dobre]

Oh, well. What's done is done. This season has been a total bust for the ladies of Team USA.

Nope. Mirai made the team. It was, for me, one of the most outstanding comeback stories of strength & perseverance I have seen in the sport. On top of which she made a major impact in helping the team win an Olympic medal. And she landed a clean triple axel at the Olympics. (Which is good because, considering the technical development on the junior scene, we could sure use a few young U.S. ladies dreaming big right now). A couple of years ago, Mirai couldn't even get two GP spots.

Bradie made the team. She finished 9th at the Olympics. This is a young woman who finished 9th at U.S. Nationals last season.

Karen made the team. Two seasons ago she was 8th at U.S. Nationals. And the ride has been so up & down, she wasn't viewed as a clear favorite to finish top 3 this season even with the title of reigning U.S. Champion.

When looking at the history of U.S. ladies skating at the Olympics, the ladies' performances this year do not compare. And these three young women can, indeed, skate better. But when looking at the history of these three athletes, three Olympic dreams were achieved by three young women who were anything but favorites mid-quadrennium to get to the main event.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yep, indeed. Thanks for your sane, and well-grounded perspective there @Dobre!

Kudos to Mirai & Bradie who were boss in the Olympic team event! It's cool having that Olympics experience, which from all accounts can be somewhat distracting and overwhelming with all of the energy and everything that's going on during the three weeks.

In some respects this Olympic season, maybe it worked out well for the Team event to take place prior to the singles events. I suppose the team event will always bring a different dynamic every four years. I would like to see some efforts toward including a team component to other competitions over the course of regular seasons and not just every other year at WTT (which is essentially a fluff event) and every four years at the Olympics.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Nope. Mirai made the team. It was, for me, one of the most outstanding comeback stories of strength & perseverance I have seen in the sport. On top of which she made a major impact in helping the team win an Olympic medal. And she landed a clean triple axel at the Olympics. (Which is good because, considering the technical development on the junior scene, we could sure use a few young U.S. ladies dreaming big right now). A couple of years ago, Mirai couldn't even get two GP spots.

Bradie made the team. She finished 9th at the Olympics. This is a young woman who finished 9th at U.S. Nationals last season.

Karen made the team. Two seasons ago she was 8th at U.S. Nationals. And the ride has been so up & down, she wasn't viewed as a clear favorite to finish top 3 this season even with the title of reigning U.S. Champion.

When looking at the history of U.S. ladies skating at the Olympics, the ladies' performances this year do not compare. And these three young women can, indeed, skate better. But when looking at the history of these three athletes, three Olympic dreams were achieved by three young women who were anything but favorites mid-quadrennium to get to the main event.

PREACH!

Mirai, Bradie, and Karen all realized their dreams of making it to the Olympics (for Mirai an 8 year wait between her first and second!), all are forever Olympians, with Mirai and Bradie forever Olympic medallists. And Mirai made history all over the ice in her Team FS! Thanks to that clutch performance she's getting some nice sponsorships and other opportunities to boot (yes, including going to the Oscars!) with more surely to come - I should have a season that's such a 'total bust' !

 

[clairecloutier]

Gracie leads a weekend skating seminar with John Coughlin: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/community/joco-913/article205671409.html

 

[Jammers]

Ashley has no one but herself to blame in three US Nationals in Olympic years she caved into the pressure all three times and didn't skate well including not even making the podium in 2014 as the defending two time US champion which was probably the first time that ever happened especially in an Olympic year.

 

[Vagabond]

Ashley Wagner has only herself to blame if her outspokenness and sense of entitlement have alienated fans who actually like her skating.