U.S. Ladies [#20]: In a Week, Maybe Two, They'll Make You a Star

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Wow, I don't know if this makes her look good.

debo said:
Ashley is furious at her fourth place finish:
www.seattletimes.com/sports/ashley-wagner-furious-after-fourth-place-in-free-skate
“I’m furious, I am absolutely furious,” Wagner said. “I know when I go and I lay it down and I absolutely left one jump on the table, but for me to put out two programs that I did at this competition as solid as I skated and to get those scores, I am furious and I think deservedly so.”
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@Vagabond I would be mad as well. Karen shouldn't have been 4 points ahead of her in the SP - despite her having the same sole mistake as Ashley and Mariah - who both finished around 65 points. In the FS she did leave points on the table (the 2A-2T and 3-3 attempt in the second half of the program), but she beat Karen. If they were closer in the SP it's possible Ashley would have gotten third. Maybe she shouldn't have said it, but I think her anger is acceptable.
In the Kiss and Cry she looked totally put off. I've never seen her that mad. I thought she was mad at herself, but I guess not. She knew she wasn't making the team.
 
aftershocks said:
You are probably right, but I vote the opposite: Send Ashley to the Olympics and send Karen to Worlds. Why would Ashley need to go to Worlds? She only stayed in another 4 years in order to make another Olympics. Worlds is largely an afterthought in an Olympic year, even though it's important too for qualifying spots for the following season.
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The real question is why would Ashley deserves to go to Olympics? She doesn't. She Was beaten by Chen who as has already been stated has better body of work according to USFS own criteria. She hasn't done anything during the last 2 seasons to give her the benefit of being held up again. Then why Worlds you say? Simply as conzolation prize and "spread the wealth" policy but if its only an afterthought for Ashley then give Karen both assignments.
 
NAOTMAA said:
Do you think Ashley's sudden dumping was because of what happened at Skate America and her supposed attitude (she's always had one anyway) heading into nationals? I mean normally you're suppose to get higher PCS marks at nationals then you internationally not lower :confused:
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I don't think there was anything sudden.

Bradie Tennell has been developing her consistency. Mirai Nagasu has been improving her technical content. Karen Chen has been rising to the occasion at the big events. Ashley Wagner has not been doing any of these things and had a middling season on the Grand Prix. Chen had a middling season too, but she has now finished ahead of Wagner three times in a row. If Wagner didn't see this coming, she should have.
 
Vagabond said:
I don't think there was anything sudden.

Bradie Tennell has been developing her consistency. Mirai Nagasu has been improving her technical content. Karen Chen has been rising to the occasion at the big events. Ashley Wagner has not been doing any of these things and had a middling season on the Grand Prix. Chen had a middling season too, but she has now finished ahead of Wagner three times in a row. If Wagner didn't see this coming, she should have.
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I’m just going to throw out the correction that Karen hasn’t finished ahead of Ashley 3 times in a row. Ashley finished ahead of Karen at Skate Canada and the Skate America SP. This is the first time all season Karen has finished ahead of her.
 
Clutz said:
I don't understand why everyone drools over Nagasu. She hasn't done crap in 10 years and frankly her interviews this week were just obnoxious.
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I didn't think her interviews were obnoxious. She seemed conservative in what she said as she always does. Can you quote some you think were?

What I don't like is how her fans inflate her skating and scoring abilities. It's like they watch something completely different. And NO there is no conspiracy against her from the USFSA or international judges! But none of this has anything to do with her personally.
 
NAOTMAA said:
I didn't think her interviews were obnoxious. She seemed conservative in what she said as she always does. Can you quote some you think were?

What I don't like is how her fans inflate her skating and scoring abilities. It's like they watch something completely different. And NO there is no conspiracy against her from the USFSA or international judges! But none of this has anything to do with her personally.
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No, I'm not going to go back and transcribe her interviews but I found her overall tone in interviews conceited and highly childish for a 24 year old person.

I agree with you about her fans and the bloating of her skating abilities as an adult.
 
Vagabond said:
Body of work:

2017 Nationals: Chen 1st, Wagner 2nd
2017 Worlds: Chen 4th, Wagner 7th

2018 Nationals: Chen 3rd, Wagner 4th

Sportsmanship:

Chen 1, Wagner 0.

End of story.
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Eh whatever @Vagabond. Some stories never end. There are prequels and sequels. ;) Remember that as far as USFS was concerned, Ashley's story could have ended in 2010. But Ashley made sure that was not all she wrote! USFS should certainly be appreciative that the plot continued with Ashley in it. Give Ashley some credit for being responsible for making her own career, and for doing some heavy lifting for U.S. ladies discipline in the process. USFS also tried to close the book on Mirai's career. Wow, another lady who persevered despite USFS meddlers and naysayers to become her own hero! That's why the hug between Mirai and Ashley backstage had a great deal of meaning. Both ladies have had to fight tooth and nail for everything in their careers. US fed has had a tendency to favorite others over them. In 2014, it was actually Gracie and Polina who were favored, while Ashley and Mirai were pitted against each other (but they both knew even then what was happening).

Like I said, 'It's a wash' between Karen and Ashley in terms of performances this season. The difference being that Ashley has carried the U.S. ladies division for six years, and should be better respected. And she's never been fully respected. As soon as Gracie appeared, USFS began taking Ashley for granted, despite the fact that Ashley went back-to-back appearances at GPF in 2012 and 2013.

Moreover, Ashley skated very well at 2017 Nationals. It was extremely close and it could have gone either way in terms of who won overall at last year's Nationals. The judges decided to give it to Karen. How soon you forget how gracious Ashley has been for her entire career toward her competitors. In this instance, Ashley has a right to be furious at what she sees as being kept down in the scoring in both programs. If they were going to place Karen ahead of Angela Wang in the sp, then why was Ashley marked down behind Angela for a similar error to the one Karen had? In the fp, Ashley didn't have as many under-rotations as Karen, and Ashley actually won the fp over Karen. Ashley somehow is always made to come back and climb a mountain. No respect. But yeah, she needed to skate clean. Let's be honest though that Karen did not skate clean either, and Karen actually has had a poorer showing overall this season.

Indeed, Ashley was very gracious to Karen at Nationals last year, when Ash could have responded with fury then too for skating clean and being overlooked for a young up-and-comer. Ashley also commended Karen for coming in 4th at 2017 Worlds and saving 3 U.S. ladies spots (which could be partly why U.S. fed is clearly favoring Karen over Ashley again this year). However, going into 2017 Worlds as second U.S. lady did not help Ashley's chances with international judges. This, after Ashley was the first U.S. lady to medal at 2016 Worlds in 10 years. Even Gracie couldn't manage to medal as U.S. favorite. Ashley deserves credit, but yep there's a lot of haters out there, many who try to backlash on Ashley winning silver at Boston Worlds. Actually Ashley should have come in 3rd in the sp at 2016 Worlds over Med who did not skate clean. But since Gracie was in first, it was decided to favor Med in the marks over Ashley in the sp.

Obviously Ashley needed to skate a completely clean fp to strongly make her case. Still, I say she has a right to be furious and to voice how she feels. USFS can take it, and they obviously don't care anyway.
 
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Clutz said:
No, I'm not going to go back and transcribe her interviews but I found her overall tone in interviews conceited and highly childish for a 24 year old person.
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Is answering reviews in a lady like manner part of the criteria now? No wonder people still think figure skating is only a pageant contest. Nagasu wasn't outstanding today but still beat the others fair and square and good for her for keep fighting and doing it by skating not by giving interviews.
 
Even though she looks so serious on the ice, in person Mirai's so giddy all the time. I saw her three times this week when she was just walking around. Once she was hopping down the stairs and asking why they had to go down stairs. Another time she was looking for the entrance (this being after the SP, so one would expect she'd know where to go). The third was bouncing around as a couple adults tried to calm her down. I think she just has so much energy all the time, kinda like a kid. In fact, the fact that every time I saw her she had an adult chaperone made her seem very childish, as did the way she talked.

It's strange because she seems so mature in her skating and serious interviews. I wonder if she's one of those that has a childish voice that makes her sound younger? And that she has chaperones because they don't want her swarmed by the media (like Nathan this week)? Either way, I found it kind of endearing - despite all the disappointment in the past and the pressure she must be facing, she's so happy and carefree. I wish I could have that attitude under pressure!
 
NAOTMAA said:
Well it takes two skaters to earn the magic 13 points for three spots, not one, so technically Ashley earned the US the three spots as much as Karen did regardless of where they finished in the end
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7th isn't a great placement for a reigning World silver medalist and It put huge amounts of unfair pressure on Chen for her debut at Worlds. So I give Chen The credit.
 
NAOTMAA said:
Do you think Ashley's sudden dumping was because of what happened at Skate America and her supposed attitude (she's always had one anyway) heading into nationals? I mean normally you're suppose to get higher PCS marks at nationals then you internationally not lower :confused:
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I thought at the time of her withdrawal from Skate America, that she would p!ss off a number of people at USFSA--mostly because she could have notified them a week ahead that she needed to deal with the infected foot and allow them a chance to pick someone else (and there were US ladies on the wait list who could have gone on short notice). But prior to that I thought Ashley made the following mistakes:
Strategic Mistake #1. Not getting a new short program.
Strategic Mistake #2: Not asking for a Challenger assignment, which would have given her another vehicle to get mileage on the new programs in addition to the GP series. Particularly important in the Olympic selection season.
Tactical Mistake #3: Not sticking with her new LaLa Land FS program but getting sidetracked going back to Moulin Rouge, essentially wasting time and spinning her wheels. I'm convinced that 2 GP + 1 Challenger outing would have given the new programs the badly-needed prior exposure leading up to Nationals, and opportunity to improve.
Tactical Mistake #4: Watering down all the most interesting choreography from the 2016 Hip Hip SP, and not replacing it with anything...much less anything worthy. This made it seem not only stale, but empty...and no amount of nice new dresses could get around that.
Possible Factor #5: I'm not sure that her appearance in the ESPN Body Issue endeared her to the USFSA--there are enough conservative elements in the organization (including judges) that might have taken offense.

She left the door open for the judges by biffing a key jump element in the SP and one in the FS. But I think there was a lot of shenanigans going on with the PCS on the top 4 ladies, and Ashley was held down in both SP and FS scoring of some of the components particularly performance and interpretation.

I feel for her. And IMO, they are crazy not to at least send Ashley to Worlds where more is on the line in terms of GP and 2019 Worlds spots for US ladies.
 
Willin said:
@Vagabond I would be mad as well. Karen shouldn't have been 4 points ahead of her in the SP - despite her having the same sole mistake as Ashley and Mariah - who both finished around 65 points.
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Wagner herself disagrees with you. https://youtu.be/FAzI-Z6DF1k?t=170

She knew she needed to make up points in the FS, and she didn't make up enough. :violin:

Regardless, a skater questioning the judging is radically uncool. :blah:
 
Willin said:
Even though she looks so serious on the ice, in person Mirai's so giddy all the time. I saw her three times this week when she was just walking around. Once she was hopping down the stairs and asking why they had to go down stairs. Another time she was looking for the entrance (this being after the SP, so one would expect she'd know where to go). The third was bouncing around as a couple adults tried to calm her down. I think she just has so much energy all the time, kinda like a kid. In fact, the fact that every time I saw her she had an adult chaperone made her seem very childish, as did the way she talked.
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Exactly to what I was referring.

SamuraiK said:
Is answering reviews in a lady like manner part of the criteria now? No wonder people still think figure skating is only a pageant contest. Nagasu wasn't outstanding today but still beat the others fair and square and good for her for keep fighting and doing it by skating not by giving interviews.
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Don't put words in my mouth. No one said anything about being ladylike. In fact, I was very careful to use my gender neutral words. And she gave countless interview all week.
 
The Wagner situation reminds me of the two times Abbott was pushed off the world team, in the sense that the PCS wouldn't be replicated in any international competition.

Send her and Chen to 4CC and let an international panel settle the third spot there.
 
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Vagabond said:
Wagner herself disagrees with you. https://youtu.be/FAzI-Z6DF1k?t=170

She knew she needed to make up points in the FS, and she didn't make up enough. :violin:

Regardless, a skater questioning the judging is radically uncool. :blah:
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It was basically the bitch face she made in the kiss and cry put into actual words!

normally she tones down the words when the microphone is in front of her but this time she let it fly
 
@Vagabond I didn't say I thought she'd blame Karen or put down Karen's skate. I think she was mad at the judges - but she'll never say that. She'll blame herself in interviews. She knows she has to act politically correct if she wants any shot at the Olympic team now, and those slip ups were already big mistakes on that front.

@jiejie Exactly. It's not a secret that USFSA doesn't like her, and some recent choices probably made them dislike her more. Not to mention she's one of those that international judges like but domestic judges hate. Mirai's the opposite - US judges give her high PCS and only one UR, but she'd get hammered on PCS and URs with that same exact skate by an international panel. Karen and Bradie generally seem to be received equally between national/international panels.
 
I liked Ashley's LLL program, but a little disappointed that the music/choreography focused only on the airy, dreamy aspect of the character and not as much on the sacrifices. I always thought the theme of LLL wasn't so much "chase your dreams" but rather "dreams come at a cost". Then again, I didn't think Emma Stone herself got that.
 
NAOTMAA said:
Do you think Ashley's sudden dumping was because of what happened at Skate America and her supposed attitude (she's always had one anyway)
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I frankly think it's due to her outspoken support of the LBGQ community. She is always out there to support the community and the USFSA has never liked it.
 
^^ I think that's a huge bit of over-speculation right there. Adam Rippon is outspoken too so your theory isn't sound. Suffice to say that Ashley was never particularly favored by USFS in general until she showed up very strong in the 2011 - 2012 season during a bit of a down period for U.S. ladies. But the next season Gracie turned up on the scene and even though Ashley prevailed in winning 2013 U.S. Nationals, for the next approximately four 1/2 years, it was the Gracie-Ashley show, with Gracie often being given the edge (and Ashley generally prevailing in big moments).

SamuraiK said:
The real question is why would Ashley deserves to go to Olympics? She doesn't. She Was beaten by Chen who as has already been stated has better body of work according to USFS own criteria. She hasn't done anything during the last 2 seasons to give her the benefit of being held up again. Then why Worlds you say? Simply as conzolation prize and "spread the wealth" policy but if its only an afterthought for Ashley then give Karen both assignments.
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Read my previous post. It's a wash between Karen and Ashley. Karen tanked at 4CCs, and then partly found her mojo at Worlds, but she still made mistakes in the fp. Ashley didn't skate well at 2017 Worlds, but she's been a bit harshly judged internationally not being seen as the #1 U.S. lady. Of course Karen has a bit better arsenal technically, but with Karen you never know how she's going to skate. Too many under-rotations. Karen's not always consistent on her triple combos either.

What a huge generalization to say that Ashley "hasn't done anything..." She's done a lot more than any fans sitting on their backsides judging her. :kickass:

The issue is that with the rise to contention of Bradie, and Mirai's firepower, USFS has decided they no longer need Ashley for insurance. So they'll take Karen's policy instead. :drama:
 
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GreatLakesGal said:
I think that's a great idea and one that would get a lot of support. Although Karen finished in third place overall, her FS had a disturbing number of URs.
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And yet they still made sure she got enough points (made up on the PCS side) to get top three over Ashley! Now what does that say about their feelings on Ashley? :scream:

USFSA can't be that stupid to think Karen will score and place respectable in Korea with all those URs, can they :confused: We all know the US ladies won't be winning any medals but don't just throw your hands in the air and say oh well
 
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