U.S. Ladies [#20]: In a Week, Maybe Two, They'll Make You a Star

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Dave is bone head and many of the folks who respond to his tweets are boneheads too. I was referring to folks with sense.

Karen is skated decently/well in 3 of her 6 events over the course of one year. She's still a wildcard and inconsistent, just like 98 of US ladies and 80% of the international skaters.

Folks with sense? That excludes me then. :lol: I agree Karen is inconsistent and a wild card. I wouldn't put her in the team event at all (I'd honestly make Bradie do both since she can get her triples ratified and maybe Mirai can Sotnikova Pyeongchang) even if I do believe Karen earned her Olympic berth.
 
Carolina's lutz's back it's gonna save her reputation
(Hey-la-day-la her lutz's back)
If I were you I'd take a permanent vacation
(Hey-la, hey-la, her lutz's back)
Yeah, her lutz's back (La-day-la, her lutz's back)
Look out now, yeah, her lutz (La-day-la, her lutz's back)
I could see it comin' so you better get a runnin' alright now (La-day-la, her lutz's back)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah (La-day-la, her lutz's back)
Her lutz's back now (La-day-la, her lutz's back)
Know she's comin' after you because she knows we've been true now (La-day-la, her lutz's back)
:kickass:
 
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I actually think Mirai should skate the Short.

I think if they split it, I'd make Mirai do the long because I think the SP is more important in the TE because there are more competitors that one can place lower to. There are less competitors in the long and I'd prefer it if Mirai did that.

OT: if they split ladies, then the USFS would only be allowed to use either one man or one ice dance team for the TE. I don't know if it's a good idea to make Nathan do both. He seems like he really needs a rest after that SP last night and it may affect his individual. That means only one ice dance team...and that'd be a real shame considering how much all three have done for the USFS in the past 3 seasons.
 
Eh, you're saying Ashley hasn't done anything worth respecting. The context is obvious. Ashley wasn't 'held up' before anyway (aside from 2013 U.S. Nats when she had been winning gold on GP circuit and was a big time contender internationally). Conversely at 2014 U.S. Nationals, Ashley was held down. She didn't help herself then either of course, but it was a minor mistake in the sp for a veteran skater who had just won bronze at GPF (second year in a row).

.

Something can be respected and still not worthy enough to put it in consideration above others merits, so you are again assuming something I didnt say.

And she was held up over Nagasu in 2014 for the oly team. For the record I agreed with the judges that time. She deserved to go to the olys over the bronze medallist at that time. you are also forgetting the 2014 LP, it wasnt just a minor SP mistake, the long was bad , she knew it coming off the ice, even Raf called her a chicken but her body of work saved her. Sadly she can't use that card now. that's all I'll say about 2014 because is been done and gone.

Going back to topic, if the body of work criteria would actually include the whole cycle I think Ashley deserves it more but since its only the last 2 seasons, sending Karen is a no brainer IMO.
 
No way. No way is Mirai a threat for that podium. I love her, but no. The international judges always nail her on URs - which the judges here all but ignored. She also tends to get very low PCS due to the lack of choreography, transitions, and performance in her programs.

It's frustrating - we've seen her do good transitions, but she has none this year. She does good 3As and clean jumps in practice, but not during competition. If she could put it all together, she could challenge for the podium. But as she skated at Nationals? No way.

she gets low goe on her jumps internationally too. Just look at her NHK trophy LP where everything, except the 3A, was close to perfect yet she didn't even crack 130 and she barely beat grandma Alena Leonova. And the panel there was actually pretty easy going overall compared to other gp events.

The only place where the 3A hype worked scoring wise as at these nationals. At all her international events this season it was a complete non-factor and barely did anything for her PCS. Unless she starts skating career best over and over I doubt we see much of a rise in her PCS marks since her reputation is pretty much set.
 
Triple (or double) Lutz is the required solo jump out of steps in the Junior SP this season, so demonstrating a consistent 3Lz in the SP is important for Junior Worlds selection.

Starr, but no lutz that we've seen. I think you gotta go with Tessa Hong and someone strong-arm the team into changing the backloading in the program until it's clean. I'd love to see Ting go, as well.
 
I can't imagine the Shibs, or any dance team, will want to give a us competitor a chance to shine in the team event. I think they'll split men and ladies.

Mirai has outscored Chen consistently, so there shouldn't be a question, there, but USFSA has a lot invested in Chen so I'm sure we'll hear crap about it.

Tennell will have to do SP because consistency is everything there.
 
Does it really matter who does the SP and who does the LP for the team competition? I mean aren't the points won the same exact for both :confused:
 
Does it really matter who does the SP and who does the LP for the team competition? I mean aren't the points won the same exact for both :confused:

Yeah but placing last in the LP portion gives you more points than placing last in the SP portion because there are more competitors that can bury you.
 
I would put Bradie in for both team events. If USFS is trying to push her as the top US contender, she needs another outing in front of international judges.
 
It was basically the bitch face she made in the kiss and cry put into actual words!

normally she tones down the words when the microphone is in front of her but this time she let it fly


Gotta love her for that. I dont agree with her but is refreshing to see someone telling it like she feels it. Shes mad yes but you can also see she's trying hard to chose her words so her opinion can come across clearly.
 
I like Ashley's dress.

OMG! Despise the film. LOVE THIS DRESS.......

sigh, now what happens? sigh.....

OK, just a quick question had Ashley been given the PCS scores she deserved in the SP would she be in third now?

Or had she done a 3/half loop/double instead of single would she be in third?
 
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She Was beaten by Chen who as has already been stated has better body of work according to USFS own criteria

how? a bunch of disaster Bs and a sloppy, forgettable GP circuit?

Granted Ash only had 1 GP do go off of but as far as Chen's Body of work this season... D+
 
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Something can be respected and still not worthy enough to put it in consideration above others merits, so you are again assuming something I didnt say.

And she was held up over Nagasu in 2014 for the oly team. For the record I agreed with the judges that time. She deserved to go to the olys over the bronze medallist at that time. you are also forgetting the 2014 LP, it wasnt just a
minor SP mistake, the long was bad , she knew it coming off the ice, even Raf called her a chicken but her body of work saved her. Sadly she can't use that card now. that's all I'll say about 2014 because is been done and gone.

Going back to topic, if the body of work criteria would actually include the whole cycle I think Ashley deserves it more but since its only the last 2 seasons, sending Karen is a no brainer IMO.

And you are making a lot of assumptions which is easy to happen in Internet conversations. I'm not forgetting about Ashley's 2014 fp. Who could forget? You're not recognizing that I said USFS gave Ashley a mountain to climb in both 2014 and in 2018, preferring to favor other skaters over Ashley. In 2014, they were favoring Gracie in particular, while they did not expect Mirai to perform well* and they were not going to send Mirai to those Olympics anyway and that was proven. Despite how well Mirai performed, USFS favored Polina over Mirai, thus making it a false choice between Mirai and Ashley, when it should have been between Ashley vs Polina.

So, in 2014 Ashley faltered like a chicken in the fp and failed to scale the mountain. USFS still planned to send Ashley to the 2014 Olympics anyway, but at the same time, they refused to treat her like a valued back-to-back GPF medalist. And instead of treating Polina like a newbie, they decided to overly reward Polina on PCS and keep Ashley down. Granted Ashley made the slight jump error in the sp. But remember in the fp Polina and Gracie both fell; Mirai was the only one to stay on her feet and skate clean in both programs. In 2018, Ashley scaled the mountain as best she could, but this time USFS apparently prefer Karen over Ashley, when both have had problematic seasons. But still Ashley won a medal on the GP and she also beat Karen in the fp tonight.

*Mirai was in the doghouse for leaving Frank and for not having any coach at 2014 Nationals. They had sent Mirai a message at 2013 Nationals, but Mirai did not heed it, and she continued to be generally well-liked internationally which was a boon.
 
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how? a bunch of disaster Bs and a slop[y GP circuit?

Granted Ash only had 1 GP do go off of but as far as Chen's Body of work this season... D+

By the tiers set up by the USFS announced like a year ago. Tier 1, 2018 Nationals and 2017 Worlds. Karen beat Ashley at both. Neither made the GPF. Moving on to Tier 2, Ashley didn't do 4CC so can't compare even if common sense would dictate she would have beaten Karen there. Ashley did win a bronze at Skate Canada and scored higher than Karen there. Moving on to Tier 3, the only competition that applied was 2017 Nationals where Karen beat Ashley.
 
^^ It was a close call at US Nationals 2017. Karen skated very well in the sp and okay in the fp. Ashley skated well too and it was a close call that could have gone either way. Don't act as if it was a beat down by Karen. It wasn't. Karen tanked at 4CCs, but came back strong at Worlds 2017. Ashley was no longer being seen as a top contender at Worlds having placed 2nd at her Nationals. But Ashley won gold at SA in fall 2016 (placing only 6th at Cup of China). This season, Ashley was 3rd at SC and withdrew at SA.

In 2016, Karen was 6th at NHK and 7th at Cup of China (thus Karen was beaten at 2016 CoC by Ashley; in general and in particular Ashley has the better GP and GPF record). This season Karen placed 8th at SA and 7th at SC. Not stellar at all.

USFSA has a lot invested in Chen so I'm sure we'll hear crap about it

I know USFS has a lot invested in Nathan Chen. But why do they have 'a lot invested' in Karen Chen?? :confused:

Karen first needs to show more investment in her own confidence and self-belief, IMHO. It's as if Karen was told she'll be backed up so just go out and skate and don't worry.
 
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If Ashley is put on this team they need to burn it all down and start over. Other then performance quality she has some of the weakest skating skills and spins of all the top US ladies and it's not the top 3 girl's fault that Ashley doesn't bring it at Nationals during an Olympic year. Get over yourself.
 
If it were up to me I’d send Andrews to 4CC and Hong and Cui to junior worlds. It’s a tossup however you put it for the U.S. at Jr. Worlds, while I think it’d be beneficial to get championship experience, world ranking points, minimums, etc. for Andrews.
 
Send her and Chen to 4CC and let an international panel settle the third spot there.

I so agree.

Ash was 3rd in free, Karen was 4th.

Both had sleeper seasons but at least Ash got a GP medal.

Also if Ash was given proper PCS for SP they be tied dead even anyway.

Someone made some good key points about Ash a few pages back.

That she shoulda gotten a new SP.. well Karen kept both of hers so I dont think thats a good point.

I have always always always said Ash needs to do B's and I have always said she needs to stop turning down 4CC. Her skating isn't that spectacular that she doesn't need more practice and experience in front of an international panel of judges.

The same person said that her ESPN body issue may have peeved some conservatives at usfsa. But if Adam can be all "Girl, I need to keep it together" and compete in full make-up I dont think the conservative thing is valid anymore. Which is amaze-balls.

I fully think her stopping in the midst of her free program at SkAm DID PEEEVE of usfsa, even more than we thought it did and they for sure handed her ridiculous PCS. Imjust trying to figure out how they got all 9 judges to agree to do that tho.....
 
LLL felt a little undercooked to me and I can't help but wonder how it might have gone down if she stuck with MR. Everyone's sick of that program but that genius music cut makes it much easier to sell. The popped salchow killed her because with even a double salchow and that two footed lutz she would have given more of an illusion of a clean skate which would probably have boosted her Performance PCS a bit.

I think 3rd/4th could have gone either way without controversy but the international judges have cooled on Ashley and the US judges are just taking their cues from them.

Well, Ashley got 33.47 for her SP at SC, 33.68 for it at SA, and 32.94 at Nationals, and imo Nats was the best performance of that program this season. So it's a little more than that. I think this performance would have got at least a bit higher PE and IN than her GP scores if she'd done this at the GP, in front of those international judges. And then you normally see inflated PCS at Nationals, and the other top ladies had that. I'm not arguing about what scores are actually deserved, but she got lower PCS for a better performance (imo) at Nationals than she's been getting internationally. Which is very weird to see, at least for me.

I don't think that's necessary. Ashley and Karen didn't do too hot in the GP series this Fall despite Ashley's medal at Skate Canada, and Karen has already beaten Ashley in front of an international panel at the biggest competition of the season after people wrote her off saying she could never replicate her Nationals success and would surely lose to Ashley.
I mostly agree with you. I mean, coming into this, I didn't think that Ashley had a strong enough BOW to bump anyone. The only thing that makes it iffy for me is that Ashley's PCS seemed to be held down here - when you get lower PCS nationally than the same program with even a somewhat worse performance got internationally, well it seems weird.

After I saw Ashley's scores, I was hoping Karen would either bomb or rock it. Not that I wanted her to bomb, but I just really didn't want to see Karen beat Ashley but very close, given the weird scoring here. I'm not really going to feel good about the results here no matter what the committee does. I'd rather Karen had made it decisive, so that any weirdness with the PCS wouldn't have affecting the final result anyways. But the difference was ~2.5 points, and there's at least an argument that normal (Nationals normal) PCS for Ashley might have closed that.

The whole thing is just very unfortunate to me. Because on the one hand, it's seems clear to me that politics played into Ashley's scores - that something weird went on there - and since the final difference between the two was small, it's possible Ashley might have beat Karen (in which case she should have been sent ahead of Karen, since neither had a strong BOW imo). On the other hand, based on the official selection criteria, I don't really feel that there's a strong argument for bumping Karen for Ashley, so if they did, that would also be behind the scenes politics. The only way I can see the committee putting Ashley on the team would be if they think something was going on with the scoring and don't agree with it, then they might feel that Ashley should have beat Karen in the first place. But again, that's not in the official criteria.

Either way, I just have a bad taste in my mouth. And I want to be clear that I'm not just saying this because I'm an Ashley fan. I enjoy watching her, but I'm not really invested in any US lady in particular (my favourite ladies are Kaetlyn and Evgenia), and I like Karen about as much as Ash.
 
I think if they split it, I'd make Mirai do the long because I think the SP is more important in the TE because there are more competitors that one can place lower to. There are less competitors in the long and I'd prefer it if Mirai did that.

I think it might make more sense to put Mirai in the short. The triple axel is a larger percentage of the score in the short than in the long. Personally, I prefer her long, though.
 
I frankly think it's due to her outspoken support of the LBGQ community. She is always out there to support the community and the USFSA has never liked it.

nah that was 4 years ago and what she said was eloquent. And lets face it with Adam and Johnny and others being 200% out and PROUD the LGBT thing seems DEAD!

what is for sure true is that USFSA handed her the worst PCS scores ever as a way to try and make sure she was kept off the team.

Ash scores good from international judges. Karen and Mirai for the most part do not. So let the chips fall where they may then. Mirai will NOT get those PCS from International judges. Why? because she never has.

I think of all the high PCS chicks tonight that Bradie will be the only one to get something like that from international judges. Why? Because those international judges will be shocked off their seats that the United States of America has a chick with absolutely NO URs and that will surprise them.
 
how? a bunch of disaster Bs and a sloppy, unforgettable GP circuit?

Granted Ash only had 1 GP do go off of but as far as Chen's Body of work this season... D+

USFS criteria for body of work considers this and last season..

The first tier of events into consideration:

2018 US Nationals - Chen wins
2017 GPF - none applies
2017 Worlds - Chen wins.
 
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