U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[mattiecat13]

How does France get two spots when their second team finished in 27th?

 

[tony]

How does France get two spots when their second team finished in 27th?

Guys. This has been discussed to no end and explained pretty clearly IMO many times.

If you're in the top 10, you qualify 2 spots to the next Worlds regardless of how the other team(s) skate. The problem here is that there is a cap on Olympics spots and since France and Italy were able to qualify their second spots first, the USA would lose out.

 

[Chemistry66]

How does France get two spots when their second team finished in 27th?

Placement points for teams not qualifying to the FS are capped at 18.

 

[clairecloutier]

Really sad right now for U.S. pairs. This was my nightmare ....

 

[olympic]

I just want to make sure I understand- 2 spots for the US at Worlds, 1 spot for Olympics?

 

[mattiecat13]

I'm sorry - I'm dense. So it's because Morgan/Cipres finished higher than Knierims and there was only one spot left at that point?

 

[tony]

I'm sorry - I'm dense. So it's because Morgan/Cipres finished higher than Knierims and there was only one spot left at that point?

Yes. If you're going down the line, France would achieve those 2 spots first.

 

[mattiecat13]

Thank you!

 

[Spiralgraph]

Really sad right now for U.S. pairs. This was my nightmare ....

Me too. Much as I've come to love the Shibs, pairs is my first love, and this is really disheartening. Haven't felt this disappointed for USA pairs since Tai and Randy had to withdraw in 1980 at Lake Placid.

 

[Mayra]

Maybe this is the reality check that the USFS and US pairs need in general. The quality of skating in the pairs field is on another level. The US pairs champion failed to quality for the long program and it took the team that missed the entire season with major health concerns to even get them to 10th place(an amazing accomplishment all things considered).

If the USFS wants a championship pair then they need to invest time, effort and money in the discipline.

 

[tony]

The question now is how many break-ups we have in the next few weeks.

 

[Jammers]

What a bullshit rule. Well France can send their 2nd team to the Olympics and they will probably not the LP again. So much for sending the best teams.

 

[tony]

What a bullshit rule. Well France can send their 2nd team to the Olympics and they will probably not the LP again. So much for sending the best teams.

And the American champions, last time I checked the results, could just as easily be in the same boat.

 

[jdonavan]

Maybe this is the reality check that the USFS and US pairs need in general. The quality of skating in the pairs field is on another level. The US pairs champion failed to quality for the long program and it took the team that missed the entire season with major health concerns to even get them to 10th place(an amazing accomplishment all things considered).

If the USFS wants a championship pair then they need to invest time, effort and money in the discipline.

Or in a girl who can do a double axel.

 

[oleada]

Or in a girl who can do a double axel.

Double axel?! A top pair these days needs 2 triples.

 

[oleada]

What a bullshit rule. Well France can send their 2nd team to the Olympics and they will probably not the LP again. So much for sending the best teams.

You do realize that the American champions did not make it to the FS, either?

 

[jdonavan]

Double axel?! A top pair these days needs 2 triples.

Exactly and Denney Frazier can't complete either with a speck of consistency.

 

[olympic]

Maybe this is the reality check that the USFS and US pairs need in general. The quality of skating in the pairs field is on another level. The US pairs champion failed to quality for the long program and it took the team that missed the entire season with major health concerns to even get them to 10th place(an amazing accomplishment all things considered).

If the USFS wants a championship pair then they need to invest time, effort and money in the discipline.

Like cold water thrown in your face, the USFSA, skaters, coaches et al need to think deeply on what they want and how to get it. Sadly, SK/K skated better than I've ever seen, but the rest of the world is amazing

 

[Jammers]

You do realize that the American champions did not make it to the FS, either?

yeah but this is France's 2nd best team. What does that tell you? The US has many other teams as good as D/F and i don't think they will ever skate that bad ever again. If they do they won't go anywhere in the US but the 2nd French team will probably be just as mediocre and still make another World team because there is no competition.

 

[Spiralgraph]

The only way to help US pairs is the same way our dance teams improved to be world class. The USA needs better investment and development, more money into getting better coaches better choreography and perhaps recruiting skaters into the discipline. If men's skating is now quad o rama, that means many US males who just have the arsenal of solid triples might be encouraged to go into pairs. Heck, USA pairs is wide open now.

 

[tony]

yeah but this is France's 2nd best team. What does that tell you? The US has many other teams as good as D/F and i don't think they will ever skate that bad ever again. If they do they won't go anywhere in the US but the 2nd French team will probably be just as mediocre and still make another World team because there is no competition.

That's how it works. Do you think Abzal Rakimgaliev shouldn't have competed in Vancouver 2010 after Denis Ten's amazing free skate at 2009 Worlds?

There is a system that has long been in play. It hasn't affected a team finishing top 10 before but it has certainly made skaters qualifying for the free skates at Worlds still have to earn their Olympic spots at the later qualifying competition.

Also, I think there are several more teams in Russia, another Canadian team, two more Chinese teams at the minimum who could probably beat all of the American teams aside from S-K/K. But they usually can't compete in any major events. That's just how it works.

 

[aftershocks]

Even if D/F had made the FS in the last possible spot, that doesn't mean the US wouldn't lose their second Olympic spot on the same technicality since they could still have been the lowest ranked country meeting the requirements for 2 spots.

^^ Whatever Chemistry. Let's put it this way, last year Tarah/Danny finished 13th and could have been better on the basis of what they can actually do. And Scinerims finished 9th but definitely could have finished higher on the basis of what they could do. And if the same had happened this year, two spots would be safe. Unfortunately both teams were either injured or recovering from illness this season, so no chance to get better or build any momentum. The next best veteran team, Haven/Brandon, very unfortunately were coming back from serious knee surgery and an entire season off. One of the newly formed teams, Cain/LeDuc, who actually had a good, building season for a new pair are not necessarily strong enough to compete with the second tier internationally, but they might have been able to hold their own and place well enough, but U.S. fed likely felt that Haven/Brandon were owned the opportunity.

Meanwhile, the very stylish team of Marissa/Mervin should be right up there since in my mind they are better than Marchei/Hotarek and Guarise/Della Monica, and definitely competitive with Luba/Dylan and Seguin/Bilodeau. Unfortunately, Mervin is Canadian and he's still figuring out the citizenship issue, so they are off the books for any eligibility to go to the Olympics (and now of course only one U.S. team can go anyway). Moreover, it has been taking C/T a very long time to fix their technical issues. For some strange reason, they haven't been able to figure that part out? Why? They claimed in a recent interview that they are gonna make us all want to send them to the Olympics next year, even though they likely can't go because the citizenship issue takes time to work out. Oh well, what is U.S. pairs then? Some kind of vanity project, dismissed, looked down on and not taken seriously by judges and other competitors?

Is U.S. fed taking U.S. pairs seriously enough to do more? Will it take this season's beat down for someone to have the courage to challenge the ISU in concert with other feds? This laissez faire, gutless attitude does not benefit the sport, and it certainly doesn't benefit our athletes, particularly not our dismissed and woefully underestimated pairs discipline. Yes, our pairs teams need to be better. But the 'one-strike and you're out,' or moreover, 'you can never get into the game,' system hampers our pairs' ability to develop and to ever gain any momentum. It's not just about bad luck and injuries.

To be continued, since I'm trying not to write a thesis in one post, which I'm very capable of doing to try and make a point about skating history. Actually, I think there is a serious need for people in the sport to look at skating history for knowledge, inspiration and motivation. Nobody is listening obviously. Mostly, TPTB need to start thinking and strategizing about how to make skating better in the future among all disciplines for the benefit of the skaters, the fans, and thereby, the sport. I'm not just some wacky figure skating nut because I'm passionate about the sport, and disgusted with it's 'leadership' and it's antiquated, expedient rules.

ETA:
I doubt Canadian fed will be interested in working in concert with U.S. fed, not when in actuality they are competing for territorial rights and oneupmanship in most disciplines. Many Canadians are infinitely butt-hurt about Davis/White besting their V/M darlings. Now that V/M are back with a vengeance and universally praised for their uber-excellence, and the Canadian ladies have turned the tables and are looking very good, Canada actually has a great chance to battle for team gold at the Olympics! Hurrah, hurrah for them. I like many of their skaters. But seriously, what about making U.S. skaters in all disciplines more competitive U.S. fed? Huh, what about it?

 

[Chemistry66]

^^ Whatever Chemistry. Let's put it this way, last year Tarah/Danny finished 13th and could have been better on the basis of what they can actually do. And Scinerims finished 9th but definitely could have finished higher on the basis of what they could do. And if the same had happened this year, two spots would be safe. Unfortunately both teams were either injured or recovering from illness this season, so no chance to get better or build any momentum. The next best veteran team, Haven/Brandon, very unfortunately were coming back from serious knee surgery and an entire season off. The newly formed team who actually had a good, building season for a new pair are not necessarily strong enough to compete with the second tier, but they might have been able to hold their own and place well enough, but U.S. fed likely felt that Haven/Brandon were owned the opportunity.

Meanwhile, the very stylish team of Marissa/Mervin should be right up there since in my mind they are better than Marchei/Hotarek and Guarise/Della Monica, and definitely competitive with Luba/Dylan and Seguin/Bilodeau. Unfortunately, Mervin is Canadian and he's still figuring out the citizenship issue, so they are off the books for the Olympics. Also, it has been taking them a very long time to fix their technical issues. For some strange reason, they haven't been able to figure that part out? Why? They claimed in a recent interview that they are gonna make us all want to send them to the Olympics next year, even though they likely can't go. Oh well, what is U.S. pairs then? Some kind of vanity project, dismissed, looked down on and not taken seriously by judges and other competitors?

To be continued, since I'm trying not to write a thesis in one post, which I'm very capable of doing to try and make a point about skating history. Actually, the need for people in the sport to look at skating history for knowledge, inspiration and motivation. And to start thinking and strategizing about how to make skating better in the future among all disciplines for the benefit of the skaters, the fans, and thereby, the sport.

You say this like I'm not aware of any of this info. I'm definitely aware that multiple US pairs have the potential to place higher than what was shown at Worlds this year. I was excited to see all the pairs at Nationals this year. After Nationals, I believed they would end up with a clear 2 spots at minimum, regardless of which two pairs were sent.

I was just stating a fact that it was still possible for both US teams to make the FS and still lose the second spot on the same technicality that they did lose it on. I wasn't trying to insult you or your intelligence. If it came off that way, I'm sorry. That was never my intention.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Maybe this is the reality check that the USFS and US pairs need in general. The quality of skating in the pairs field is on another level. The US pairs champion failed to quality for the long program and it took the team that missed the entire season with major health concerns to even get them to 10th place(an amazing accomplishment all things considered).

If the USFS wants a championship pair then they need to invest time, effort and money in the discipline.

USFS sent two injured pairs teams to Worlds. Luckily one team was able to skate well. Hindsight is always wonderful, but they probably should have sent C/T.

I think the US will always have problems in pairs until the skaters (and/or their parents) give up on thinking there is some instant success out there. If you look at dance, those teams stay together forever. Think what the Pairs could be if teams stuck it out for 10 years.

And, IMO Pairs skating took a giant leap forward this year. Catch up is never a fun game to play.....but.....

 

[becca]

yeah but this is France's 2nd best team. What does that tell you? The US has many other teams as good as D/F and i don't think they will ever skate that bad ever again. If they do they won't go anywhere in the US but the 2nd French team will probably be just as mediocre and still make another World team because there is no competition.

I don't think D/F showed they deserve to be in the Olympics here. The way the system works is that if you have a really good team your program earns the right to send another team which can be good for development purposes. I think there are a lot of teams like the Czechs who are way more screwed than the Americans. There are only 16 spots and in a system of only 16 spots think one spot for USA is fair.

 

[Catherine M]

The question now is how many break-ups we have in the next few weeks.

I was thinking the same thing. The news that only one US team will skate at the Olympics will cause alot of skaters to think "do I want to go on?" There probably will be some of the older ones that won't be skating come July, when the new season starts.

And you look at the scores and how close things were for the teams in 5th-10th place and the little things add up--if only Chris had landed both sbs jumps cleanly. Or how about Lubov getting around on her sbs sal, giving I/M the necessary points to move up to 6th, letting Canada keep its 3 spots. Goes to show you, every element, every point is important.

 

[aftershocks]

You say this like I'm not aware of any of this info. I'm definitely aware that multiple US pairs have the potential to place higher than what was shown at Worlds this year. I was excited to see all the pairs at Nationals this year. After Nationals, I believed they would end up with a clear 2 spots at minimum, regardless of which two pairs were sent.

I was just stating a fact that it was still possible for both US teams to make the FS and still lose the second spot on the same technicality that they did lose it on. I wasn't trying to insult you or your intelligence. If it came off that way, I'm sorry. That was never my intention.

Oh no, @Chemistry66. I don't know who you are, but you sound very knowledgeable. I'm not trying to tell you anything you don't already know. We are all fans here, along with some skating insiders too. I'm just frustrated as a fan. I've added a few thoughts to my previous post too. I tend to go over things in my mind and reflect and summarize on stuff in order to put my passionate thoughts and ideas together about the sport. I have no power. I'm just rattling off my two cents. But I do care about the athletes and the sport, and it all seems so futile most of the time.

I'm definitely not lecturing you @Chemistry66 or anyone else, but I suppose I come off as angry and disgruntled with the messenger. That's not my intention either. I just think there's too much excuse-making going on, and not enough really looking at everything and coming up with viable solutions. I love many Canadian skaters, and Canadian fans are some of the best, if not the best, so I'm not trying to start a war. Things are what they are, and I'm def not afraid to look things squarely in the eye and speak my mind. Let's go on a little review of the recent past, and later, the historic past, shall we? Remember, I'm thinking aloud, and I'm not mad with any other fans, just with TPTB who refuse to think differently and change with changing times in a thoughtful and judicious manner. And please understand that this is about wanting U.S. athletes to be competitive with the rest of the world, but it's also about fairness for all the athletes in having an opportunity to improve and to compete. The current system hampers development and interrupts momentum. My review will take more than one post:


Canadians Seguin/Bilodeau win Skate America (with a poor sp). Tarasova/ Morosov were anticipated and slotted to win with their superior talent to the field, but they botched up an element and fell to third (and didn't think they deserved to be there either). Haven/Brandon are in second after sp, but why not first overall? Why do Seguin/Bilodeau jump from third to first? Then when Haven/Brandon go to Skate Canada, and skate well vs Luba/Dylan, who clearly did not skate that well and expected to be fourth themselves, what happens? Oh no, SC was having none of that with their second pair team. Luba/Dylan get the nod for a bronze medal over Haven/Brandon in a close battle. To be honest, Haven has not been 100% during jumping passes all season, but L/D made a number of mistakes at SC and Haven/Brandon made few mistakes at SC, and they really have deserved being given more credit this season for their components. But have they? Hell no! U.S. fed tries always to be fair and gets kicked in the shins most of the time. Meanwhile, lots of looking down on U.S. pairs teams. Haven/Brandon definitely deserved better component scores at 4CCs, and debatably they deserved to win bronze at Skate Canada. Neither happened.

Okay, D/F did not perform well at Worlds. How well were they expected to do under these circumstances? It is U.S. fed's fault for not really thinking long and hard about what to do for their pairs teams: Take a chance on Marissa/Mervin? Really assess Haven's competitive fitness, at the same time they were monitoring Alexa? Seriously Ash/Tim were flown in for Alexa/Chris? WTH with U.S. fed's lame thought process and unpreparedness!

Alexa/Chris are a nice looking pair with some good elements. They had a poor 2014-15 season, until the lead-up to Nationals when they started previewing a boffo quad twist. That suddenly brought them back into buzz and favor to win 2015 U.S. Nationals, when Haven/Brandon are the ones who were having a very good season and who were receiving some buzz when Ingo Steuer began working with them along with their main coach, John Z. But Haven/Brandon's luck turned to shizz when Alexa/Chris won 2015 Nationals (not cleanly btw). At 2015 Worlds, H/B don't have a stellar outing, but they land in 12 (ahead of Luba/Dylan btw! for once ahead of a Canadian pair -- God in heaven; Luba/Dylan must have really messed up in their Worlds debut). With their amazing quad twist, Alexa/Chris land in 7th, and the skies are looking brighter for clear sailing ahead, right?

 

[Chemistry66]

Oh no, @Chemistry66. I don't know who you are, but you sound very knowledgeable. I'm not trying to tell you anything you don't already know. We are all fans here, along with some skating insiders too. I'm just frustrated as a fan. I've added a few thoughts to my previous post too. I tend to go over things in my mind and reflect and summarize on stuff in order to put my passionate thoughts and ideas together about the sport. I have no power. I'm just rattling off my two cents. But I do care about the athletes and the sport, and it all seems so futile most of the time.

I'm definitely not lecturing you @Chemistry66 or anyone else, but I suppose I come off as angry and disgruntled with the messenger. That's not my intention either. I just think there's too much excuse-making going on, and not enough really looking at everything and coming up with viable solutions. I love many Canadian skaters, and Canadian fans are some of the best, if not the best, so I'm not trying to start a war. Things are what they are, and I'm def not afraid to look things squarely in the eye and speak my mind. Let's go on a little review of the recent past, and later, the historic past, shall we? Remember, I'm thinking aloud, and I'm not mad with any other fans, just with TPTB who refuse to think differently and change with changing times in a thoughtful and judicious manner. And please understand that this is about wanting U.S. athletes to be competitive with the rest of the world, but it's also about fairness for all the athletes in having an opportunity to improve and to compete. The current system hampers development and interrupts momentum.

Wait, do you think I'm Canadian or something?

(To clarify, I'm not. I'm from near Philadelphia, currently in Michigan.)

 

[aftershocks]

Wait, do you think I'm Canadian or something?

(To clarify, I'm not. I'm from near Philadelphia, currently in Michigan.)

Certainly not. I told you that I'm not addressing you specifically. There are Canadian fans who are also interested in U.S. athletes, just as there are many U.S. fans who are interested in Canadian skaters and many skaters who hail from other countries. The sport is a lot more global, but unfortunately, the sport itself has not changed significantly in the way it operates to reflect those global changes. They simply DO NOT put the athletes first when they make decisions.

Please do not take anything I'm saying personally. Why should you? I mentioned that about Canadians because I discuss Canadian skaters in my review, and I don't want to start a war with any Canadian fans simply because I'm opinionated and not afraid to say what I think, no holds barred.

U.S. Pairs Review cont'd:

Wrong. Haven/Brandon want to make a move in battling Alexa/Chris for top U.S. pair, and they decide to take on Ingo Steuer full time as their only coach. Then Haven fractures her knee in a freak off-ice accident. Out for the season, and lose Ingo Steuer as their coach. Skate Gods, why?! Okay, but we still have Alexa/Chris, right? Tarah/Danny are looking good in Florida. And a couple of other nice looking young teams are paired in Smith/Reiss and Pfund/Santillan. But unfortunately, swing ahead a couple of seasons, and all of these teams seem to be standing still and going nowhere fast. Sadly the very good team of Calalang/Sidhu (coached by Meno/Sand) have lost momentum due to Zach's chronic back injury-related problems. And the good junior pair of Aaron/Settlage did not transition successfully to seniors and split last year.

So, upside: there are two new pairings that U.S. fed's Mitch Moyer helped implement: Cain/LeDuc and Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay. These two deliver the major highlights at 2017 U.S. Nationals for pairs in the short program. OTOH, the pairs free programs, which are the only ones televised, do not come off well for any team. Double downside: Despite Alexa/Chris coming back from her serious, life-threatening illness to make the World team, they do not skate well enough in the fp to place high enough to safely secure two spots for U.S. pairs next season, the Olympics season! And Haven/Brandon, seemingly not going into 2017 Worlds with great confidence, and under strict cut-off limits in their come back season, end up not qualifying for the free program.

Ironically, in 2015, when Haven/Brandon placed 12th in front of Luba/Dylan at Worlds, there was also a 16-place cut-off limit for the fp. It didn't make as much difference then because honestly there was not as much depth in pairs as there is today, particularly in the second and third tiers. The top tier is even heavier with superior talent. Stupid of ISU to stay at 16 cut-off limit when they needed to increase it to at least 20. That's one of the reasons why the sport remains stultified and antiquated in its outlook for skaters. There's not enough room at the top, and insufficient attention paid to developing athletes and giving them enough competitive opportunities to gain experience and momentum.

 

[Chemistry66]

U.S. Pairs Review cont'd:

Wrong. Haven/Brandon want to make a move in battling Alexa/Chris for top U.S. pair, and they decide to take on Ingo Steuer full time as their only coach. Then Haven fractures her knee in a freak off-ice accident. Out for the season, and lose Ingo Steuer as their coach. Skate Gods, why?! Okay, but we still have Alexa/Chris, right? Tarah/Danny are looking good in Florida. And a couple of other nice looking young teams are paired in Smith/Reiss and Pfund/Santillan. But unfortunately, swing ahead a couple of seasons, and all of these teams seem to be standing still and going nowhere fast. Sadly the very good team of Calalang/Sidhu (coached by Meno/Sand) have lost momentum due to Zach's chronic back injury-related problems. And the good junior pair of Aaron/Settlage did not transition successfully to seniors and split last year.

So, upside: there are two new pairings that U.S. fed's Mitch Moyer helped implement: Cain/LeDuc and Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay. These two deliver the major highlights at 2017 U.S. Nationals for pairs in the short program. OTOH, the pairs free programs, which are the only ones televised, do not come off well for any team. : Double downside: Despite Alexa/Chris coming back from her serious, life-threatening illness to make the World team, they do not skate well enough in the fp to place high enough to safely secure two spots for U.S. pairs next season, the Olympics season! And Haven/Brandon, seemingly not going into 2017 Worlds with great confidence, and under strict cut-off limits in their come back season, end up not qualifying for the free program.

Ironically, in 2015, when Haven/Brandon placed 12th in front of Luba/Dylan at Worlds, there was also a 16-place cut-off limit for the fp. It didn't make as much difference then because honestly there was not as much depth in pairs as there is today, particularly in the second and third tiers. Even the top tier is heavy with talent. Stupid of ISU to go from 16, to 22, and then back to 16 when they needed to either keep it at 22 or only decrease by two placements to 20, instead of going back to 16. That's one of the reasons why the sport remains stultified and antiquated in its outlook for skaters. There's not enough room at the top.

I do appreciate your reflections because I do the same thing sometimes with train of though posts.

But I'm wondering what you're referring to about this 22 pairs thing. Worlds has been 16 pairs in the FS for a long time, and Olympics has been 20 pairs total since at least 2002.