U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[Chemistry66]

^^ As much as I get the logistical/cost issues, you gotta ask, is the ISU in business to promote the sport and provide athletes with opportunities, or is its top concern limiting Zamboni runs and maintaining schedules ...

Providing athletes with opportunities going forward is a good idea, but where the ISU may have been concerned is the limited number of pairs in Worlds competition in recent years. In the past 4 years, there have only been 22 (2016), 19 (2015), 23 (2014) and 18 (2013) pairs. This year, with 28 (well, 29 before Ji/Leftheris withdrew) was somewhat anomalous. The high scores to qualify for the FS were even more anomalous. I can understand that the ISU may want to make sure that these are not just a single occurrence before adding more to the Pairs FS

Let me clarify that I think this year's event is a sign that they need to sit down and seriously figure out how they can expand the FS, but that I can also understand it's going to take time and may not happen for a few seasons.

 

[clairecloutier]

^^ I definitely understand. This year's field is bigger & better than any we've seen in a while. Is it an anomaly, or the new normal? A legitimate question. (And a more valid reason to delay changes than the logistical issues.)

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Exactly. Frankly, I do not trust ISU's track record or timing on their decision-making.

From the ISU Special Regulations and Technical Rules document:

So, Ashley and Tim, as listed substitutes, could have been entered up to the point of one hour before the first Pairs draw.

Once again, apparently U.S. fed was worried about the health/ ability to skate well of the wrong pair team.

Good luck to Scinerims in the fp. Wonder what Tarah & Danny are sitting at home thinking? I suppose barring a catastrophe, Scinerims should finish in the top 10 (needed for two U.S. pairs spots for next year).

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

^^ You mean the NBCSN broadcast?

Under the circumstances, it seems like Ash & Tim should more-so have been flown in to sub for Haven & Brandon.

Although the very restrictive cut-off limit could have hurt any newbie team. Yet if Ash/Tim had subbed and skated their sp like at Nationals, they should have scored well. For Haven & Brandon, they just have not fully put it altogether this season. With Haven's knee surgery-related jumping problems, their confidence surely has taken a hit as well.

Why with the current depth did ISU limit pairs so drastically? It's beyond comprehension. Even skaters who performed decently well didn't make the cut.

I was beyond confused during the telecasrt.... Tanith didnt explain nearly enough and then flubbed even saying at first Haven and Branden were flown in.

If she is gonna say Ash & Tim have been flown in last minute by USFSA, the network not show or even talk about the previous performance of Denney & Frazier all I could think was that something happened to D&F ....

 

[aftershocks]

Let me clarify that I think this year's event is a sign that they need to sit down and seriously figure out how they can expand the FS, but that I can also understand it's going to take time and may not happen for a few seasons.

Right, as always the skaters take the hit; get the short end of the sticky wicket, unfortunately. This, with as much depth and interest as there is for pairs these days!

How many pairs teams will be allowed at the Olympics??

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

WOWZA,

Scimerim had personal best SP score after 3 surgeries and missing the whole season.

So, because D&F didnt qualify Scimerim must finish in top 10 for 2 pairs to go to Olys (and not in the top 13?). Im not keeping up with rules....

http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2017/...irs-short-figure-skating-world-championships/


The top U.S. pair was Alexa Scimeca Knierim and Christopher Knierim, who posted a personal-best 72.17 points for eighth place. The husband-and-wife pair are competing for the second time this season after Scimeca Knierim’s serious abdominal injury.

U.S. champions Haven Denney and Brandon Frazier suffered two falls and placed 20th, matching the worst U.S. pairs finish in worlds history. They did not qualify for the 16-pair free skate.

“That was nowhere near our full potential,” Frazier said. “It was just a bad skate.”

Therefore, the Knierims must finish 10th or better after the free skate to ensure the U.S. earns two pairs places at the 2018 Olympics.

 

[Chemistry66]

Right, as always the skaters take the hit; get the short end of the sticky wicket, unfortunately. This, with as much depth and interest as there is for pairs these days!

How many pairs teams will be allowed at the Olympics??

20. 16 qualify at Worlds, 4 at Nebelhorn.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

20. 16 qualify at Worlds, 4 at Nebelhorn.

But then why Im still confused is.. say Katia and Harley finish 16th someone over at The Australian thread tole me that they wont qualify for Olys here still because of other countries qualifying multiple teams... i.e. China, Russia etc.... still confused if you wouldnt mind helping me?

added later: LOL it was you. I read all your links..Im still confused

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/australian-skating-news.98953/page-6#post-5040944

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Ah yes, the Chinese will definitely qualify 3 teams. Who else?

20. 16 qualify at Worlds, 4 at Nebelhorn.

^^ Oh boy then. What's the Nebelhorn field gonna look like I wonder.

 

[Chemistry66]

But then why Im still confused is.. say Katia and Harley finish 16th someone over at The Australian thread tole me that they wont qualify for Olys here still because of other countries qualifying multiple teams... i.e. China, Russia etc.... still confused if you wouldnt mind helping me?

added later: LOL it was you. I read all your links..Im still confused

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/australian-skating-news.98953/page-6#post-5040944

Facts:
- 16 Pairs Quota Spots are allotted at Worlds
- Countries can earn multiple spots
- The countries who earn 3 spots and 2 spots take priority in claiming those 16 Quota spots
- Countries who qualify for the FS but DON'T earn multiple spots can only earn a single spot, and only if there are spots left over after all the multiple-spot-countries are allotted their spots.

^^ Ah yes, the Chinese will definitely qualify 3 teams. Who else?

It depends on the FS, but let's move this to a more appropriate thread. Or DM.

 

[aftershocks]

Therefore, the Knierims must finish 10th or better after the free skate to ensure the U.S. earns two pairs places at the 2018 Olympics.

Yep, I already said that.

Figure skating and its rules and its politics and its scandals, disappointments, frustrations, thrills and chills are never-ending. It might be time to get off the merry-go-round, or slow it down a little. Too many rules, too many numbers, too many Medvedeva arm wraps, too much 'subjectivity', too few pairs slots for fp, no professional tour, no decent livestream feed even after paying for IN subscription.

ETA:
And yucky re those clueless, annoying, too lengthy, and vastly useless skycam overhead shots during the pairs programs! Why do they think the tv/online audience wants a view from nosebleed heaven?!

 

[aftershocks]

Countries who qualify for the FS but DON'T earn multiple spots can only earn a single spot, and only if there are spots left over after all the multiple-spot-countries are allotted their spots.

Appropriate thread or not. That sentence needs a comprehension translation. But yeah thanks.

 

[Chemistry66]

Appropriate thread or not. That sentence needs a comprehension translation. But yeah thanks.

Countries can qualify for the FS, but not earn multiple spots. They are therefore eligible for a single spot at most.

Spots are first allocated to countries earning 3 and 2 spots. If the spots are allocated to all these countries, and the total amount of spots allocated is not yet 16, then remaining single spots are allocated in order of finish to other countries.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

My brain hurts...

Sorry @Chemistry66 I still dont understand a single thing. No need to reply back to me. Ill try and figure it out somehow...

But still confused as to USA.. If D&F did advance to free skate then Scimerim would only need to finish top 13 to qualify 2?

This year for sure 20 pairs should get to go to free.

ADDED LATER: OK, the brain is back in gear. I got it!!!! YAY! So China will qualify 3 but theres only 2 teams here.. so that "ghost spot" the 3rd spot they qualified which isnt here at these worlds now eliminates from the team that finishes in the 16th spot here...Say USA QUALIFIES 2. that will take a spot from number 15 here at the standings... I GOT it!!! Im so happy.... (I know I may not be explaining it the best but I comprehend it now.)

But could you answer the USA question if you dont mind? If D&F did advance then Scimerim could finish top 13 and still qualify 2?

 

[aftershocks]

Countries can qualify for the FS, but not earn multiple spots. They are therefore eligible for a single spot at most.

Spots are first allocated to countries earning 3 and 2 spots. If the spots are allocated to all these countries, and the total amount of spots allocated is not yet 16, then remaining single spots are allocated in order of finish to other countries.

You're very kind. I can't say the same for ISU and the broadcasters responsible for endless/ useless/ disruptive skycam shots.

Good luck to Alexa/Chris. They may stay in same position or drop. Kudos for them coming through what they went through and toughing it out. What were the difficulties re health issues once they got to Helsinki? I haven't heard any full explanation.

Haven & Brandon had a lot to go through as well with her knee surgery and relearning how to walk. I haven't seen as much promotion for them re coming back after a difficult layoff season with Haven relearning how to walk. Forget about any love and consideration from ISU judges for D/F all season after Skate America. D/F must have gone out on the ice in Helsinki lacking some confidence, especially after they were dumped on in PCS at 4CCs.

 

[insideedgeua]

^^ As much as I get the logistical/cost issues, you gotta ask, is the ISU in business to promote the sport and provide athletes with opportunities, or is its top concern limiting Zamboni runs and maintaining schedules ...

I couldn't like this post more if I tried.

 

[DDNatalia]

It IS an odd shame to have the smallest field be in Pairs compared with all the other disciplines. Especially at the major championship events. I "get" the need to limit on the GP series from a depth/event standpoint but ... to get this far into the season. Not thrilled with the cap of 16 teams in the Free.

 

[kwanfan1818]

^^ As much as I get the logistical/cost issues, you gotta ask, is the ISU in business to promote the sport and provide athletes with opportunities, or is its top concern limiting Zamboni runs and maintaining schedules ...

The ISU doesn't pay for events, aside from officials: the sponsoring organization does. The (public) rationale for cutting fields and shortening events by the ISU has long been on behalf of the hosts, from not giving clean ice to the last flights at the Olympics and championships to adding TES minimums to cutting fields to removing the CD. Championships have shrunk from when Monday am was the first singles qualifier.

 

[eurodance2001]

Wow.. looks like Alexa and Chris will finish 11th if current standings hold; which would mean only 1 US pair next year.. They have to hope one of the remaining pairs left to go finishes behind them..

Edit: Drama! The US will have 2!!!! OMG..

Edit again: OMG I think the US will only have 1 spot; I was reading this. http://static.isu.org/media/1003/20...ce-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_final.pdf

 

[Chemistry66]

Wow.. looks like Alexa and Chris will finish 11th if current standings hold; which would mean only 1 US pair next year.. They have to hope one of the remaining pairs left to go finishes behind them..

Edit: Drama! The US will have 2!!!! OMG..

Edit again: OMG I think the US will only have 1 spot; I was reading this. http://static.isu.org/media/1003/20...ce-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_final.pdf

HI I KNOW YOU

Yeah, they're going to end up with 1 if that rule is applied like a lot of us think.

 

[aftershocks]

Wow.. looks like Alexa and Chris will finish 11th if current standings hold; which would mean only 1 US pair next year.. They have to hope one of the remaining pairs left to go finishes behind them..

Edit: Drama! The US will have 2!!!! OMG.

^^ Wowza, Spoiler alert! I'm not watching right now. I will have to catch it later. Gee whiz, it must have been heart in mouth time for Ash/Tim and Tarah/Danny. I wonder if they all were watching? Denney/Frazier must be feeling really bummed about this end to their comeback season. As far as I'm concerned, they need to get to the bottom of where Haven is at in terms of her ability to successfully jump again! Is it a matter of just rebuilding her confidence in using that leg? Or is it a true physical limitation and chronic pain issue that won't go away?

Truth be told either Tarah/Dannny or Ash/Tim could also have not made the cut-off under the circumstances of such depth and the ridiculous cut-off limit. However, I think that Tarah/Danny would likely have been in a later warm-up group for the sp since they competed at Worlds last season. Being in a later group is always better. I think it's possible that Ash/Tim could have made at least 15 or 16 in the sp with a perfect skate, perhaps higher since the judges were really ramping up the scores.

I've not yet seen any commentaries from broadcasters. I wish figure skating broadcasters would grow some balls and really speak out on the lameness of ISU's decision on this. I'm so tired of the ISU's and the fan's excuses: "bad camera angle for the judges"; "ya know, the sport is very subjective, wink wink"; "Oh, ISU had to make this decision due to the Zambonis, ya know, and the time schedule, arf arf." Meanwhile, it takes the judges eons to deal with IJS/COP while skaters and coaches bide precious time shrugging their shoulders in the kiss 'n cry. Yep, that's figure skating folks.

And yes, you can call me too demanding. But it's because I care about the sport, and I happen to think they could do a lot better in a number of areas, if only they would in the assessments and decision-making decide to PUT THE SKATERS FIRST!!!! Novel idea, I know.

Think outside the box, already!

And U.S. fed, get busy supporting the pairs discipline, would you please!

HI I KNOW YOU

Yeah, they're going to end up with 1 if that rule is applied like a lot of us think.

Oh, okay. Right, Scinerims finished on the cutting edge, so only they will be heading to Olympics and Worlds next year, unless Alexa can no longer continue due to health reasons. Who knows? A lot can happen between now and next year.

Too late already, U.S. fed, as usual. Whatcha gonna do? It is what it is. But think better, strategize better. Support your athletes better. Help the ISU come up with better decisions, and not butthead ones.

 

[Chemistry66]

^^ Wowza, Spoiler alert! I'm not watching right now. I will have to catch it later. Gee whiz, it must have been heart in mouth time for Ash/Tim and Tarah/Danny. I wonder if they all were watching? Denney/Frazier must be feeling really bummed about this end to their comeback season. As far as I'm concerned, they need to get to the bottom of where Haven is at in terms of her ability to successfully jump again! Is it a matter of just rebuilding her confidence in using that leg? Or is it a true physical limitation and chronic pain issue that won't go away?

Truth be told either Tarah/Dannny or Ash/Tim could also have not made the cut-off under the circumstances of such depth and the ridiculous cut-off limit. However, I think that Tarah/Danny would likely have been in a later warm-up group for the sp since they competed at Worlds last season. Being in a later group is always better. I think it's possible that Ash/Tim could have made at least 15 or 16 in the sp with a perfect skate, perhaps higher since the judges were really ramping up the scores.

I've not yet seen any commentaries from broadcasters. I wish figure skating broadcasters would grow some balls and really speak out on the lameness of ISU's decision on this. I'm so tired of the ISU's and the fan's excuses: "bad camera angle for the judges"; "ya know, the sport is very subjective, wink wink"; "Oh, ISU had to make this decision due to the Zambonis, ya know, and the time schedule, arf arf." Meanwhile, it takes the judges eons to deal with IJS/COP while skaters and coaches bide precious time shrugging their shoulders in the kiss 'n cry. Yep, that's figure skating folks.

And yes, you can call me too demanding. But it's because I care about the sport, and I happen to think they could do a lot better in a number of areas, if only they would in the assessments and decision-making decide to PUT THE SKATERS FIRST!!!! Novel idea, I know.

Think outside the box, already!

And U.S. fed, get busy supporting the pairs discipline, would you please! :

Even if D/F had made the FS in the last possible spot, that doesn't mean the US wouldn't lose their second Olympic spot on the same technicality since they could still have been the lowest ranked country meeting the requirements for 2 spots.

 

[Spiralgraph]

Sigh. Alexa and Chris did all they could do. Next season will be ferocious. If by some miracle another USA team performs well on the grand prix (and that probably would take a miracle) Alexa and Chris might have some real competition for that single spot for the Olympics.

And for next year's worlds, does the US have two spots?

 

[olympic]

Wait a minute. Aren't D/F considered to have finished 18th which combined w/ SK/K would be 28?

 

[Spiralgraph]

I don't think so.^^ According to a few knowledgeable posters in the Worlds pairs LP thread, because there are only 16 spots in the Olympics, the USA is down to one spot.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Wait a minute. Aren't D/F considered to have finished 18th which combined w/ SK/K would be 28?

D/F in SP finished 20th and did not Qualify. S/K finished over-all 11th. Not sure how it works when one team does not Qualify, but 20 +11 is 31..

 

[Chemistry66]

Wait a minute. Aren't D/F considered to have finished 18th which combined w/ SK/K would be 28?

Yes, but spots went as follows (in order):

3 spots to China, Russia, and Canada

2 spots to Germany, Italy, France, and the USA

That's a total of 17 spots. Only 16 can be allotted via Worlds. As per Rule 400.A.3 listed in the Special Regulations and Technical Rules document, if the number of spots qualified exceeds 16, the last country to meet the requirements for multiple spots may not enter a second team.

 

[Chemistry66]

D/F in SP finished 20th and did not Qualify. S/K finished over-all 11th. Not sure how it works when one team does not Qualify, but 20 +11 is 31..

Placement points for countries who do not make the FS are capped at 18. Also, S-K/K finished in 10th. That is technically 10+18 = 28, or enough for 2 spots, but they lose out on a technicality as I posted above.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Placement points for countries who do not make the FS are capped at 18. Also, S-K/K finished in 10th. That is technically 10+18 = 28, or enough for 2 spots, but they lose out on a technicality as I posted above.

you're right, LP was 11th, over-all is 10th. I had no idea it is capped at 18. thanks for info.

 

[Chemistry66]

Sigh. Alexa and Chris did all they could do. Next season will be ferocious. If by some miracle another USA team performs well on the grand prix (and that probably would take a miracle) Alexa and Chris might have some real competition for that single spot for the Olympics.

And for next year's worlds, does the US have two spots?

Yes, the US still maintains two spots for Worlds, since Worlds is not on a quota system like the Olympics.