U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

So.. when it comes to the team event will whoever goes in pairs have to do both programs for TEAM and both programs for the pairs event?

meaning if Scimerim goes to the Olys will they have to compete both portions of team event and then go right into the pairs competition? Or will at least another pair be sent to help out thus another team gets to be an Olympian (and possible medal winer).

Last question: Is USA allowed to qualify a second pairs team at Nebelhorn because they did have a team that finished hear in top 10 but doesnt get second placement because of the 16 quota from worlds???

Interesting. Yet ISU is burying themselves with so many nonsense rules. Who can keep up? And after this season more rules will come out and so on. lol

 

[oleada]

@aftershocks your entire post is absolutely ridiculous. Your claim that USFS is a poor, just federation screwed over by the sneaky Canadians is laughable! Like they don't politik with the rest of them.

What's your reasoning for Denney/Frazier deserving higher components? Aside from the fact that they're American and you like them? I'm sure they're lovely people but they could improve their skating skills and transitions, and he's certainly not known for his posture or expression. Have they improved? Yes. Are they competitive with top teams internationally right now? No.

As for Skate Canada, Denney/Frazier did not land a single clean side by side jumping pass, and they left a mountain of points on the table by only having one level four element in the SP. They could really help themselves by getting higher levels in the death spiral, since they seem to get a level 2 every time. I/M had four points on BV alone, and I'm sorry, but they're better skaters than Denney and Frazier in every measure. That's not home cooking.

 

[Chemistry66]

So.. when it comes to the team event will whoever goes in pairs have to do both programs for TEAM and both programs for the pairs event?

meaning if Scimerim goes to the Olys will they have to compete both portions of team event and then go right into the pairs competition?

Last question: Is USA allowed to qualify a second pairs team at Nebelhorn because they did have a team that finished hear in top 10 but doesnt get second placement because of the 16 quota from worlds???

Interesting.

Yes, if Scimeca-Knierim/Knierim go to the Olympics, they would have to compete both portions of the Team Event should the US qualify for the Free Skate/Free Dance portion

And no, the US cannot get a Nebelhorn spot. Only countries who have not obtained any spots in a discipline at Worlds are eligible for Nebelhorn spots in that discipline

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Yes, if Scimeca-Knierim/Knierim go to the Olympics, they would have to compete both portions of the Team Event.

Child...... #RulesAreMeantToBeBroken #MessedUp lol

 

[Jammers]

This disaster better wake up the USFSA because the US has to many good skaters to ever be down to only one skater or team for the Olympics or Worlds. When is the last time this has happened?

 

[TanithandBenFan]

Child...... #RulesAreMeantToBeBroken #MessedUp lol

Marissa and Simon skated both segments of the team event in Sochi, and I've always anticipated that the US would opt to do the same in 2018 regardless of how many pairs we have on the team. I'm hoping they'll save one of the "swap out" options for dance, where we have two podium-quality teams that deserve a chance at a team medal.

 

[aftershocks]

I do appreciate your reflections because I do the same thing sometimes with train of though posts.

But I'm wondering what you're referring to about this 22 pairs thing. Worlds has been 16 pairs in the FS for a long time, and Olympics has been 20 pairs total since at least 2002.

Yep, sorry, I looked at that and misread it. I corrected my previous post. Right there were 22 who competed in 2015 and only 16 allowed to advance to fp in pairs.

Let's just say then that the ISU should have better assessed pairs depth and taken that heavily into consideration and allowed an increase in the number of pairs allowed to advance to the fp in 2017. It looks like there were 19 entered in pairs in 2015 (16 advanced); 22 entered in 2016 (16 advanced); 24 entered in 2017 (still only 16 advance! ).

 

[Chemistry66]

Yep, sorry, I looked at that and misread it. Right there were 22 who competed in 2015 and only 16 allowed to advance to fp in pairs. Let's just say then that the ISU should have better assessed pairs depth and taken that heavily into consideration and allowed an increase in the number of pairs allowed to advance to the fp in 2017. It looks like there were 19 entered in pairs in 2015 (16 advanced); 22 entered in 2016 (16 advanced); 24 entered in 2017 (still only 16 advance! ).

That's why I think that this year will cause the ISU to plan a serious sitdown to figure out what to do if the trend continues of more pairs competing plus more pairs scoring as high as they did this year. If it's a trend and not just a one-off situation, then something needs to be done.

 

[Jammers]

That's why I think that this year will cause the ISU to plan a serious sitdown to figure out what to do if the trend continues of more pairs competing plus more pairs scoring as high as they did this year. If it's a trend and not just a one-off situation, then something needs to be done.

Nah the ISU has it's head up it's ass and won't do a thing.

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks your entire post is absolutely ridiculous. Your claim that USFS is a poor, just federation screwed over by the sneaky Canadians is laughable! Like they don't politik with the rest of them.

What's your reasoning for Denney/Frazier deserving higher components? Aside from the fact that they're American and you like them? I'm sure they're lovely people but they could improve their skating skills and transitions, and he's certainly not known for his posture or expression. Have they improved? Yes. Are they competitive with top teams internationally right now? No.

As for Skate Canada, Denney/Frazier did not land a single clean side by side jumping pass, and they left a mountain of points on the table by only having one level four element in the SP. They could really help themselves by getting higher levels in the death spiral, since they seem to get a level 2 every time. I/M had four points on BV alone, and I'm sorry, but they're better skaters than Denney and Frazier in every measure. That's not home cooking.

You know what @oleada. We do not usually agree on a lot. And we do not have to agree here. I am passionate in my views. I do not expect everyone to agree with me. You don't have to believe that Haven & Brandon improved in their components over the course of this season. They actually did. @clairecloutier believes the same and has said so in her pairs reviews. At Skate Canada, both Luba/Dylan and Haven/Brandon made mistakes, but L/D made more. It is quite true that Luba/Dylan have improved more than Haven/Brandon (who are a younger team overall), and of course L/D received boffo choreographic assistance this season, and it paid off for them. Part of the problem for H/B is that they lost momentum being out for a season. And Haven actually had to relearn how to walk before she began relearning how to jump. Alexa/Chris and Haven/Brandon should definitely be lauded for their tremendous courage, chutzpah, and determination. But I wonder, where do our pairs teams go from here? What have they got to look forward to next season? There are no major opportunities waiting for the majority of them at 2018 Worlds and Olympics. That is a huge setback for a discipline that has already been struggling for far too long to gain a foothold internationally.

As someone already mentioned: some teams may end up retiring, while others definitely need to begin strategizing about how to get better and fight to develop a seriously competitive reputation on the World stage. Seriously, the Italian pairs teams have nothing on the U.S. teams, aside from advantageous backing, recognition, and above all: opportunities to compete.

 

[mackiecat]

@aftershocks i can't believe you think the federations who host Grand Prix events decide the results. The judges are from all over, there is not a stacked panel. Yes local skaters sometimes place higher at their own competitions due to no travel or time changes, local crowd support, not eating strange food, feeling more comfortable at home. Then there were skaters like Jeff Buttle who skated better in Asia than at home.

 

[Deleted member 221]

This disaster better wake up the USFSA because the US has to many good skaters to ever be down to only one skater or team for the Olympics or Worlds. When is the last time this has happened?

Ice dance, 1995, and before that 1994, where there was the infamous petition from Punsalan and Swallow to keep Gorsha Sur from gaining expedited citizenship. The original .

There was only one U.S. lady at 1984 Worlds due to withdrawals and failure to properly submit substitutes. Sumners + 2 others had qualified (back then, there was a "named skater" rule that entitled that skater + 2 others rather than any 3).

 

[VGThuy]

Yes, if Scimeca-Knierim/Knierim go to the Olympics, they would have to compete both portions of the Team Event should the US qualify for the Free Skate/Free Dance portion

And no, the US cannot get a Nebelhorn spot. Only countries who have not obtained any spots in a discipline at Worlds are eligible for Nebelhorn spots in that discipline

Honestly S-K/K (or any U.S. pair) would be wise to put all of their energy in the team event anyway as that's their best chance of earning any sort of Olympic medal.

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks i can't believe you think the federations who host Grand Prix events decide the results. The judges are from all over, there is not a stacked panel. Yes local skaters sometimes place higher at their own competitions due to no travel or time changes, local crowd support, not eating strange food, feeling more comfortable at home. Then there were skaters like Jeff Buttle who skated better in Asia than at home.

Aww, come on. Absolutely no home-cooking ever allowed. Yeah right. This is figure skating we are talking about, isn't it?! Obviously, there are judges who try to do their best to be fair and do their jobs. Preference, subjectivity, and national affiliation (IOW: politics) always enters in, even if sometimes unconsciously. There's not so much to do about that, but for the sport to come together better with much better vision and leadership. Again, if they would only put the skaters first!!! If not for fans, would Savchenko/Massot even be skating?

I think we should all learn from the skaters who work so very hard, and who for the most part are sportsmanlike and understanding of each other. Luba/Dylan were gobsmacked to win bronze at Skate Canada because they knew they did not perform well. But they were also relieved, and it may have even lit a fire underneath them to get in gear for the remainder of the season.

 

[aftershocks]

Exactly and Denney Frazier can't complete either with a speck of consistency.

Don't be so simplistic. This was up to U.S. fed to properly assess Haven's physical fitness, and thereby the team's confident ability to compete at the level needed to actually be competitive, particularly under the stringent 16-rule cut-off with quality newbie pairs competing having come up from juniors: Czechs, Australians, much less the North Korean team! It's not like any of this is suddenly news. All of this was known beforehand.

Both ISU and U.S. fed have their heads not only stuck up their a$$e$, but also squarely mired in the sand. They are frickin' clueless.

Please STOP with blaming the athletes. It's NOT their fault, period.

 

[Yazmeen]

aftershocks, let me put my thoughts simply:

Canadian pairs are simply great, they have been for quite a while. At the moment, even with serious injury to a team, they kick our American asses. Badly.

US Pairs need to catch up, and USFS needs to put time, money, and effort into buidling the pairs program. Including not having younger pairs explode and split when results don't come quickly, or through other "machinations" (hello, Dalilah...). Our pairs program needed a serious wake-up call and it got one today. I just feel bad that Alexa and Chris had to go through all they did and get this outcome. I hope they get the Olympic spot next year, they sure as hell earned it this year. And for the record, my favorite US pairs team is Marissa and Mervin before you start up.

As for Denney and Frazier, I know there was injury there, too. But they bombed. Period. And a combination of bad coaching decisions and not enough work on elements afterh her return helped doom them, plus the fact is they will never have either the technique or the plain pizazz as a top team; frankly, IMO, I'd rather watch paint dry. They were frankly the most embarassing US Pairs Champions in history at a World Championship. And there's a lot blame for that to go around, not just on them. Calling USFS - wake the %$!@ up!!!!!

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Eh, you think I don't know that @Yazmeen. I'm looking it squarely in the face. But I'm also NOT going to act like U.S. teams do not have talent. The problem is as I've already said, if you guys would actually look at everything I'm saying and not get your defenses up: Of course, the bottom line is that U.S. fed has not put enough time, energy, money and politics into grooming competitive U.S. pairs athletes. U.S. fed has seemed to take too much for granted, and to just go along to get along. This is the comeuppance needed. But seriously, there was an opportunity to try harder to ensure keeping two spots and even over the past few years to try and gain three spots before the depth in international pairs got more superior and the fp eligibility spots didn't increase.

You do not seem to get that I'm looking at this from all the angles. If you do not read everything I posted, but skim through and make up your mind, or just dismiss what I'm actually saying, that's on you.

What I am saying: NONE OF THIS IS NEWS. Why is it so surprising that D/F were a mess at Worlds? Apparently U.S. fed and all the coaches were crossing their fingers that a miracle would happen for D/F. Come on, they didn't even win their National championship with clean performances. How in hell were they expected to get better at this juncture when it's the tail end of the season? To be perfectly honest: Why not go ahead and allow Marissa/ Mervin to go to 4CCs with Cain/LeDuc and Alexa/Chris, and seriously get Haven looked at regarding her ability to land jumps! What is the condition of her knee? Shouldn't she have foregone going to Worlds in order to ensure her leg is strong enough for next season? That was definitely part of my thinking all along.

And believe me, I do realize that Marissa/Mervin have not believed in themselves technically since they paired up. That is a serious problem, and I do not see how they plan to fix it truthfully when they are dealing with other issues like Mervin trying to become a U.S. citizen. They took too much of a carefree attitude about everything. They are being coached by one of the best pairs coaching crew in the world, but Gauthier/Marcotte have a serious contingent of Canadian pairs, and when push comes to shove, I doubt Mervin/Marissa are at the top of that totem pole. Meanwhile, Merv/Marissa have too much talent to be taking a back seat to any teams. But they have to get serious about what their plans are. Do they want to be competitive or just pal around, take sloppy seconds and thirds and see what the future might hold? U.S. fed already overlooked them which should have told them something! I think it meant, "What are your plans for becoming more consistent technically? Mervin is not a citizen and he can't go to the Olympics. Are you two planning to stay together for the long haul? If you are, please learn to land your jumps and get Mervin's citizenship papers in order."

Apparently, U.S. fed is too scared to actually shake things up, or too clueless to think straight. And too inconsiderate to actually talk directly in no uncertain terms with their athletes. They seem to think that everything is going to magically work out all by itself. A lot of ass-backwards, antiquated, status-quo thinking, which btw happens to be endemic in figure skating.

Above all, frickin' STOP blaming the athletes! Some one needed to sit them all down and discuss the matter, and come to a better decision with input from all instead of crossing their fingers and hoping. Now, teams are either going to face the dreadful facts of no opportunities to compete for diminished or no returns, and end up retiring, or figure out a way to actually become more competitive. Or go along as usual fooling themselves into thinking they have a chance in a sport that does not play fair, and never has.

 

[overedge]

This disaster better wake up the USFSA because the US has to many good skaters to ever be down to only one skater or team for the Olympics or Worlds. When is the last time this has happened?

Reality check: the US will have at least one skater in every single discipline at Olympics and Worlds. That's not a "disaster". There are plenty of other countries that would love to be in that situation.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Assuming the US is down to one spot, one Pairs team will have to skate both segments of the Team Event, just like Castelli/Shnapir did. In C/S's case, they were the lowest-ranked discipline, and singles decided on a split. Which likely would have happened again, assuming USFS rules remain the same.

It won't be just a battle for a single spot, but also for a very good shot at an Olympic medal.

 

[VGThuy]

A lot of people want the USFS to do something to boost our pairs program. What do people suggest? How do you think they should approach skating parents at local rinks all across the country and convince them that they need to pair up their son/daughter with another family's son/daughter and intertwine their child's potential skating career, if the parents and child are serious enough about skating to invest in it, with another child's with all the money, logistics, future life paths, health risk when doing pair elements, etc. that's involved. How much manpower does the USFS have to do that?

 

[becca]

A lot of people want the USFS to do something to boost our pairs program. What do people suggest? How do you think they should approach skating parents at local rinks all across the country and convince them that they need to pair up their son/daughter with another family's son/daughter and intertwine their child's potential skating career, if the parents and child are serious enough about skating to invest in it, with another child's with all the money, logistics, future life paths, health risk when doing pair elements, etc. that's involved. How much manpower does the USFS have to do that?

Well what does Canada do? What does the US do in dance? Maybe they should look at that. The whole we are not a Communist country so that's why we don't have good pairs does not work for me anymore.

Canada is not Communist. Russia isn't anymore.

The issue is Russia, China, Canada have great coaches and systems that know how to develop great pairs. And they do it over and over again.

I am convinced the issue is there are countries that know how to develop great pairs and countries that don't. And I don't think the USFSA is in the group of countries that knows how to create great pairs.

 

[skatingguy]

It's not about convincing parents to put their children into pairs but in resources available to young pairs teams. I think the biggest reason that the US has struggled with pairs is that for many years the top teams don't last and pairs is a discipline where many years are needed to get the timing and precision on the difficult and dangerous elements. The USFSA dedicating resources to the skaters, helping them stay competing and enjoying skating while progressing through the ranks could help to produce champions because they don't happen by accident.

 

[avivadawn]

Frankly....we need a Wheaton Academy for Pairs.
Or something.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

Even if Haven and Brandon had qualified for the free skate, I think they would've had to finish 11th to edge out the Italians in the "last in" rule. In this deep field that wouldn't have been an easy task. I don't think it's fair to keep throwing them under the bus for not qualifying.

 

[shuilee]

Actually FRA would be out if Brandon & Haven had qualified for FS and finished 15th place, for example.

USA= 10th + 15th = 25 points
FRA = 8th + 18 = 26 points

So USA would have qualified 2 spots to Olympics if D&F could somehow finish 15th place. France would be down to 1 pair since they had 26 points total.

 

[olympic]

Like for the Men, I have mixed feeling about US pairs at Worlds: SK/K skated their hearts out and were quite good. I believe that is their 2d highest score EVER and it was accomplished off of a horrifying infirmity. At the same time, I can never recall the US only having one slot in any Olympics. Reading the bottom line, it would appear to be a failure but considering the circumstances, it was an uphill battle w/ overwhelming odds for US pairs. Consider also that so many pairs outside the US have really become out-of-this-world great.

 

[oleada]

Why is there an assumption that somehow Castelli/Tran or Cain/LeDuc could have done better here? Beyond the Knierims, the US teams are not that competitive, period. Marissa and Mervin scored below the lowest qualifying score at both their GPs, and Cain/LeDuc's PB is 62 - just on the cusp (and they scored in the 50s in their other events). One team has always been inconsistent; the other is brand new - not exactly a recipe fire success at worlds. Focusing on whether Denney was injured or not is beside the point. No one is saying these USA teams are not talented but they are certainly less skilled than the current international field. Whether that's talent or coaching or development, who knows but that's the reality right now.

 

[semogal]

US teams can't jump consistently. Until USFS figures out how to fix that, our pairs teams are not going to get close to the Worlds podium. Do lower level coaches need to be taught how to teach better jump technique? Jumps are a sore spot for singles too (women struggle with triple/triple and most of our men struggle with the quad).

 

[tony]

Actually FRA would be out if Brandon & Haven had qualified for FS and finished 15th place, for example.

USA= 10th + 15th = 25 points
FRA = 8th + 18 = 26 points

So USA would have qualified 2 spots to Olympics if D&F could somehow finish 15th place. France would be down to 1 pair since they had 26 points total.

Where is this coming from? Had D/F made the free skate, they still would have qualified their first spot LATER than the French and Italians.

One more time- if a team (or skater) finishes in the top 10, the second team has no effect on the fact that the country has earned 2 spots to the same event the next season. None. So in your scenario and in my interpretation of the rule, the same result would occur.

I know there was some talk of them determining placements by combining results, but to me that would only be needed when the skater(s) finish outside of the top 10 - i.e. a 28 or lower combined result is required.

Since 18 points are the maximum given to skaters, even those finishing in last place, a top 10 solely does the job.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Exactly @skatingguy, champions do not happen by accident. Plus, in today's new world, it is becoming harder and harder to produce champions with the huge depth among all disciplines. Once upon a time, the U.S. was pretty good in pairs and actually sent 3 pairs teams to compete at Worlds. Do you guys realize that 3 pairs teams were on the Sabena flight in 1961 and lost their lives? That is part of the story. After 1961, the U.S. had to rebuild its entire figure skating program. That is how the current global state of affairs in figure skating began to happen. Coaches from other countries, including John Nicks (Great Britain) and Carlo Fassi (Italy) came to the United States to begin coaching. Eventually, it paid off with Nicks grooming JoJo Starbuck/ Ken Shelley and Tai Babilonia/Randy Gardner. And Fassi assisted a number of U.S. singles ladies to gold medals.

Still, the trajectory for U.S. figure skating was forever altered post-1961. And the fact that the sport as a whole remains so antiquated in their thinking and lacking in vision hasn't helped. The U.S. did have other competitive pairs teams for a long while, including the Carruthers siblings, and Watson/Oppegard, and later Kuchiki/Sand, Meno/Sand, Ina/Dungjen, Ina/Zimmerman, Inoue/Baldwin, Evora/Ladwig, et al. And even in 1972 at Junior Nationals, there was a very fabulous team who looked liked seniors and who lit up the arena: McCladdie/Ewell (but they were not encouraged to continue into the senior ranks). Of course, after Babilonia/Gardner won Worlds in 1979, there were really no U.S. pairs teams who actually challenged for gold, but there were a number who challenged for at least bronze or top 5 placements. That seemed to lull U.S. fed into going along without doing anything to improve their pairs discipline. Why give in to the notion that it's too tough to keep young pairs teams together? I agree with @becca that the opposite has happened in ice dance. And yes, the U.S. simply does not have enough good pairs coaches, nor enough genuine commitment for teams to stay together. Frankly Haven/Brandon might be farther along competitively had their families not moved and they split up for two crucial seasons.

More later...