U.S. Men 2024-25 news & updates

[misskarne]

Quadruple jumps require an enormous amount of energy that might otherwise be applied to performance, interpretation, and choreography. This is even more so when skaters do multiple quadruples, especially those above the quadruple salchow. The second mark has never reflected this tradeoff properly.

I would say Chen getting 91 PCS for a program in which he simply skated back and forth until the quads were complete was a very inadequate tradeoff...for everyone else.

 

[Vagabond]

I would say Chen getting 91 PCS for a program in which he simply skated back and forth until the quads were complete was a very inadequate tradeoff...for everyone else.

I don't disagree. Part of the blame is on the judges, but part is on the scoring system itself. It was not any better, however, under 6.0. It may even have been worse.

 

[Wyliefan]

I would say Chen getting 91 PCS for a program in which he simply skated back and forth until the quads were complete was a very inadequate tradeoff...for everyone else.

Which program are you talking about? Because as I remember it, Nathan used to incorporate his spins and steps in there with the jumps just like all the other skaters. He didn't pull some sort of reverse Zagitova and save all tbe non-jump elements for the end.

 

[Karen-W]

Which program are you talking about? Because as I remember it, Nathan used to incorporate his spins and steps in there with the jumps just like all the other skaters. He didn't pull some sort of reverse Zagitova and save all tbe non-jump elements for the end.

Neither does Ilia. His element layout is pretty much the same as most of the rest of the top men, if memory serves. It's all rather formulaic for them, with the only major differences being how many combos to put in the 2nd half to maximize the 10% bonus, the # of quads being attempted overall, and whether you mix it up with doing 2 spins to end or sandwich the choreo sequence between them.

 

[On My Own]

I would say Chen getting 91 PCS for a program in which he simply skated back and forth until the quads were complete was a very inadequate tradeoff...for everyone else.

Is this about 2018 worlds? lol. One of the worst events ever.

A bunch of Americans absolutely swallowed up the "performances" of that LP at worlds and Olympics, though. There was little to nothing left in it after the GPF that season. Really deserved mid 6s at best on Composition/Interpretation by the time it reached the Olympics.

 

[kwanfan1818]

One of the issues is that PCS for Men were originally calibrated for a 50/50 split, based on Jeff Buttle’s skills, ie, the same TES as most Men on average with high skills/content in the five categories of PCS. The official idea was that a man with a couple of quads, but average PCS might reach the same total score, if clean and not too empty, but that a well-rounded skater like Buttle would hold his own. That was also when GOE was capped at 3, not 5.

Of course, the judges have been hiding behind that on forever, hiking the PCS to get as close as possible to TES. It didn’t take long: Joubert was given higher PCS than Buttle in Gothenburg in 2008– as freaking if — the year Buttle won Worlds, just the fifth year after CoP was introduced, and only the fourth year it was used at Worlds.

Ladies/Women’s PCS was devalued under the same rationale, because except for an outlier like Trusova, whose base if rotated (under the rules at the time) was much higher than the other women, they were trying to be sure that PCS didn’t overwhelm TES.

 

[olympic]

Just want to state an opinion that I hope is obvious and shared by others: In style, artistry and choreography, there is a gap between Nathan and the Eteri-bots. I would slide Ilia above them as well

 

[jlai]

Which male skater is Eteri bot? You mean the Georgian skater?

 

[On My Own]

Would say there's a gap in state coaching, state funding, unable to be able to make your own choices much of the time, and growing up abused and developing mental health issues like EDs because of it and your technique turning to a downward trajectory as soon as that happens, but. Oh well.

 

[Wyliefan]

I find the way our biases have played out in this thread very amusing. I'm obviously very pro-Nathan, @misskarne plans to stay salty to the end of time over Jason's PCS scores (not that I blame you for that!), and @On My Own is just happy for any opportunity to get in some hits at Americans.

The Fan Matrix: It's not just for ice dance.

 

[On My Own]

I find the way our biases have played out in this thread very amusing. I'm obviously very pro-Nathan, @misskarne plans to stay salty to the end of time over Jason's PCS scores (not that I blame you for that!), and @On My Own is just happy for any opportunity to get in some hits at Americans.

The Fan Matrix: It's not just for ice dance.

I was happy that Nathan had redemptive skates at PyeongChang as well as Beijing fwiw But yeah he was overscored af.

I've also defended Ilia previously, and think he's better than Kagiyama.

I mean I've even defended Ashley Wagner when confronted with PC. So I refuse this label of bias!

 

[PRlady]

Wow. I never defend Ashley Wagner. But then I was a Mirai fan so the matrix wins again.

 

[On My Own]

I never defend Ashley Wagner.

The urge is overwhelming to high-five you, but I did disagree with PC that she "never deserved +GOE on jumps". An exaggeration to be sure, but her technique was better than many (decent amplitude, good air positions), and her 3Lo was among the best.

I thought Mirai (and Karen, and Alysa Czisny, among others from Wagner's competitors) were far more talented though.

Oh and to add, I actually liked Alysa Liu, too. I reject the oppression of the American Imperialist assumption of my being biased!

 

[Allskate]

Young Nathan spent nearly as much time in the ballet studio as he did on the ice. IIRC, he was about 12 when he/Momma Chen focused 100% on skating.

I read Nathan's book. His mother did have him very, very, very busy doing a variety of things in addition to school and skating. Personally, I didn't see evidence of his ballet or music in his skating the way I have seen it with other skaters. I especially didn't like his carriage very much, though it did improve. Reading his book, I definitely didn't get the impression that he liked ballet and music and the artistic side of skating nearly as much as the jumping in skating.

Just want to state an opinion that I hope is obvious and shared by others: In style, artistry and choreography, there is a gap between Nathan and the Eteri-bots. I would slide Ilia above them as well

I really hope that's not the bar we're measuring against.

 

[skateboy]

Personally, I didn't see evidence of his ballet or music in his skating the way I have seen it with other skaters. I especially didn't like his carriage very much, though it did improve.

I noticed Nathan's ballet training mostly in his port de bras, he always had lovely arm positions. It was especially noticeable in his Le Corsaire short program that Marina Zoueva choreographed for him.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[sk9tingfan]

This IMO is the most artistic and best freeskate of Nathan's career;World's 2021:

Google Search

 

[skateboy]

This IMO is the most artistic and best freeskate of Nathan's career;World's 2021:

Google Search

Agreed. To this day I think it is the greatest men's long program in history.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

This IMO is the most artistic and best freeskate of Nathan's career;World's 2021:

Google Search

Glass was a masterpiece. Imagine what the crowd reaction would have been like if it wasn’t a pandemic impacted Worlds…

Also Shae’s shirt

 

[panda42]

Glass was a masterpiece. Imagine what the crowd reaction would have been like if it wasn’t a pandemic impacted Worlds…

Also Shae’s shirt

I had forgotten how good that program was, I like it much better than his 2022 FS. I wonder how he would score against Ilia if he were still competing now.

 

[sk9tingfan]

I had forgotten how good that program was, I like it much better than his 2022 FS. I wonder how he would score against Ilia if he were still competing now.

Nathan's PCS scores are much higher than Ilia's; but Ilia's technical scores are off the charts when he skates perfectly. It's an apples to oranges situation.

List of highest scores in figure skating - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[A.H.Black]

I noticed Nathan's ballet training mostly in his port de bras, he always had lovely arm positions. It was especially noticeable in his Le Corsaire short program that Marina Zoueva choreographed for him.

- YouTube

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youtu.be

I noticed the ballet training in his hands. Nathan's hands are second to none. It was one reason he always looked relaxed when he skated - but still knew how to use them to dance at the end of Rocket Man.

 

[Debbie S]

I had forgotten how good that program was, I like it much better than his 2022 FS. I wonder how he would score against Ilia if he were still competing now.

Well, Nathan's total score in 2021 was 2 points higher than Ilia's in Boston. But 13 points lower than what Ilia scored in Montreal....

 

[BittyBug]

Nathan's hands are second to none.

Nathan does have great hands, but Jimmy Ma may top him in that category. I believe they both play the piano, which may contribute to both their musicality and their expressiveness of their hands.

 

[BittyBug]

Well, Nathan's total score in 2021 was 2 points higher than Ilia's in Boston. But 13 points lower than what Ilia scored in Montreal....

Remember that there's one less jumping pass now, and the free skate is 30 seconds shorter.

 

[tony]

Remember that there's one less jumping pass now, and the free skate is 30 seconds shorter.

That change was made in 2018/2019, so irrelevant for that comparison in the above discussion.

 

[sheetz]

The change to the sequence rule did benefit Ilia a bit.

 

[sk9tingfan]

I had forgotten how good that program was, I like it much better than his 2022 FS. I wonder how he would score against Ilia if he were still competing now.

IMO,the 2021 program appealed to those who truly love the sport and understand it from many perspectives. Nathan is a skater's skater and true skating fanatics(fan derivation). I believe that in order to appeal to a broader audience during the Olympic seaon, I believe he brought back his Rocketman FS. IMO,A more commercially-oriented audience would not have understood or appreciated the 2021 program.

 

[panda42]

Well, Nathan's total score in 2021 was 2 points higher than Ilia's in Boston. But 13 points lower than what Ilia scored in

IMO,the 2021 program appealed to those who truly love the sport and understand it from many perspectives. Nathan is a skater's skater and true skating fanatics(fan derivation). I believe that in order to appeal to a broader audience during the Olympic seaon, I believe he brought back his Rocketman FS. IMO,A more commercially-oriented audience would not have understood or appreciated the 2021 program.

That does make sense in an Olympic year. Nothing against Rocketman, Nathan did a great job. My personal preference is for more classical and expressive programs.

 

[sk9tingfan]

That does make sense in an Olympic year. Nothing against Rocketman, Nathan did a great job. My personal preference is for more classical and expressive programs.

Moi aussi..

 

[BittyBug]

That change was made in 2018/2019, so irrelevant for that comparison in the above discussion.