U.S. Men 2023-24 news & updates

[Allskate]

If you mean this thread, it's not his fan thread but rather discussions on US mens' skating as a whole.

I had just been reading the fan thread. I caught my error and edited my post while you were writing yours.

Everyone is going to have things they fixate on more than the next person. Many people will fixate on their own opinions as if they are part the rulebook

Yes. That pesky rulebook that calls for people to be good at more than quads.

Everyone is going to have things they fixate on more than the next person. Many people will fixate on their own opinions as if they are part the rulebook I love a skater that checks off all of the boxes for exceptional skating skills and program composition. Jason has repeatedly done that throughout his career, but I'm also not oblivious to him doing everything he can TES-wise to stay competitive.

I suppose it depends on what people mean by "everything he can." He was training to do a quad and then stopped training it when he was injured and was prioritizing staying healthy for the Olympic season. He has said that he is only going to compete if he can do so while being healthy. It's not impossible to add more difficult jumps when you're older. (Amber Glenn only recently added the triple axel and has landed it once cleanly.) Jason will pay a price in scores and placement for not having the quad. But, quads aside, I don't think his programs are easy.

 

[Sylvia]

Copying over from the U.S. National Qualifying info thread in GSD:

USFS' press release today (Nov. 21, 2023): https://www.usfigureskating.org/new...figure-skating-championships-lineup-announced

"The following athletes have qualified for the 2024 U.S. Championships (and how they qualified)" with Sectional placements added below by me:

* = qualified by having one of the 3 "next best national scores" at Sectionals

Senior Men (18)
Will Annis (senior sectionals) E-1
Lucas Broussard (bye)
Jason Brown (bye)
Goku Endo (senior sectionals) P-1
Tomoki Hiwatashi (senior sectionals) M-1
Liam Kapeikis (bye)
Joseph Klein (senior sectionals) M-2
Kai Kovar (senior sectionals) P-3*
Jimmy Ma (bye)
Ilia Malinin (bye)
Daniel Martynov (bye)
Samuel Mindra (senior sectionals) P-5*
Maxim Naumov (bye)
Yaroslav Paniot (senior sectionals) P-2
Camden Pulkinen (bye)
Daniel Samohin (senior sectionals) E-2
Andrew Torgashev (bye)
Michael Xie (senior sectionals) P-4*

Junior Men (20)
Ryan William Azadpour (novice sectionals) P-N2
Nicholas Brooks (junior sectionals) P-1
Lorenzo Elano (junior sectionals) M-4
Sergei Evseev (junior sectionals) P-2
Caleb Farrington (novice sectionals) E-N1
Aleksandr Fegan (junior sectionals) E-3
Kirk Haugeto (junior sectionals) E-2
Lucius Kazanecki (junior sectionals) E-1
Alvin Luu (novice sectionals) M-N3
Jon Maravilla (junior sectionals) P-4 (competed out of section due to pairs so P-5 included)
Antonio Monaco (junior sectionals) M-3
August Perthus (novice sectionals) P-N1
Marlo Rosen (novice sectionals) M-N1
Ryedin Rudedenman (novice sectionals) M-N2 (competed out of section due to dance so M-N3 included)
Jared Sedlis (junior sectionals) E-4
Taira Shinohara (junior sectionals) M-1
Beck Strommer (junior sectionals) M-2
Alek Tankovic (novice sectionals) E-N2
Vaclav Vasquez (junior sectionals) P-3
Luke Wang (junior sectionals) P-5

Note: USFS has yet to announce their 2024 Youth Olympic Games team (selection criterion is highest NQS score of the YOG age-eligible skaters in each discipline) and the junior man is expected to be Jacob Sanchez (presumably this is why he did not compete at Easterns).

 

[Stephanie]

Goku Endo will compete at the Golden Spin challenger, replacing Andrew Torgashev: https://x.com/AnythingGOE/status/1727811024315711827?s=20

Hopefully the reason for Andrew's withdrawal is nothing serious (perhaps he feels his time will be better spent at home training for nationals). This is certainly a great opportunity for Goku

 

[olympic]

UGH Camden, giving away points on doubling routine triples. I am frustrated because he really is talented, but good on the quad.

 

[layman]

https://results.isu.org/events/gp2023/gpsmen.htm

Ilia Malinin was the only US man to qualify for the Grand Prix Final. The next closest man was Camden Pulkinen in 14th place (and in no danger of qualifying for the final). The rest of the US men who skated on the Grand Prix are so far down the list (in terms of results) that it's hard to find their names.

There had been some talk this season that Jason Brown ought to retire and let the younger men have a chance, but if I were the USFSA, I would pay Jason Brown a huge sum to stay and skate for as long as he desires. The younger US men are just not ready.

The Grand Prix Results make it clear (if it was not already) that the US World Team will be Ilia Malinin, Jason Brown and whoever can ride their coat-tails.

 

[Rukia]

I don't understand all the stuff said about begging Jason to skate. Like he should skate if he still loves it and feels capable. If the other men can't keep 3 spots then they can't keep 3 spots. It's not the end of the world.

 

[skatfan]

I don't understand all the stuff said about begging Jason to skate. Like he should skate if he still loves it and feels capable. If the other men can't keep 3 spots then they can't keep 3 spots. It's not the end of the world.

Agreed. The men would get two spots instead of three, basically Jason earning his own spot if he goes. If he wants to continue, great!

 

[ilovepaydays]

There had been some talk this season that Jason Brown ought to retire and let the younger men have a chance, but if I were the USFSA, I would pay Jason Brown a huge sum to stay and skate for as long as he desires. The younger US men are just not ready.

As long as Jason wants to compete, he should continue to do so. Other than Ilia, are there any other American men who we can confidently say can finish in the top 10 at Worlds?

It’s not like Jason’s jump content isn’t hard for these guys to beat - or at least they should be able to.

 

[Trillian]

There had been some talk this season that Jason Brown ought to retire and let the younger men have a chance, but if I were the USFSA, I would pay Jason Brown a huge sum to stay and skate for as long as he desires. The younger US men are just not ready.

The Grand Prix Results make it clear (if it was not already) that the US World Team will be Ilia Malinin, Jason Brown and whoever can ride their coat-tails.

I am thrilled to see Jason continue as long as he wants, but I do think it’s worth acknowledging that his Warsaw Cup scores were his weakest international showing since the fall of 2019. He was in great shape by the time of nationals and 4CC that season, but he was also four years younger and had different goals at that point. I hope he’ll show up at nationals this year looking as good as he did last year, but I’m not sure we should take it as a given or even that it’s a fair expectation of him.

The international field is also looking more consistent and experienced this season, so I wouldn’t say earning three spots is a sure bet with Jason in the mix. It’s certainly possible, but not the level of almost-sure thing it was last year.

Personally, I’d say Jason should keep competing for as long as he wants at whatever level makes sense for him in the context of his personal goals. And he should keep getting international team spots as long as he earns them and wants them. But aside from whatever is standard for national team support, I can’t see any incentive for USFS to throw extra money at Jason to keep competing. What else could he possibly do that he’s not already doing for them?

 

[her grace]

Pulkinen does look like the second best man at this point. But wow, he doesn’t seem to have the stamina to get through the long program.

 

[sheetz]

I know it's domestic scoring, but Tomoki scored 249 at Midwestern Sectionals last week.

 

[Karen-W]

Pulkinen does look like the second best man at this point. But wow, he doesn’t seem to have the stamina to get through the long program.

At minimum, his GP scores are at least consistent - 230.84 and 229.32 - and they're also higher than any other US man not named Ilia or Jason. Having said that, there are a handful of other US men within spitting distance of Camden - Kapeikis & Torgashev only 10 points below that at at least 1 GP, and Tomoki within 10 at his first Challenger.

 

[Ronxxx]

続ける

ん。

個人的には、ジェイソンは、彼の個人的な目標の文脈で彼にとって意味のあるレベルで彼が望む限り、競争し続けるべきだと思います。そして、彼がそれらを獲得し、それらを望む限り、彼は国際チームのスポットを取得し続けるべきです。しかし、代表チームのサポートの標準である

At minimum, his GP scores are at least consistent - 230.84 and 229.32 - and they're also higher than any other US man not named Ilia or Jason. Having said that, there are a handful of other US men within spitting distance of Camden - Kapeikis & Torgashev only 10 points below that at at least 1 GP, and Tomoki within 10 at his first Challenger.

 

[Jammers]

Even in the years from 2011-2017 when the US men weren't really a threat to get on the podium at Worlds we had a lot of depth and more then just one skater would win medals on the GP but it really is shallow right now after Ilia. The last Olympic cycle the younger US men didn't really develop into top medal contenders so here we are now.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I know it's domestic scoring, but Tomoki scored 249 at Midwestern Sectionals last week.

Tomoki's has always been capable of high scores. However, he melts down very frequently and can't really be counted on.

 

[jlai]

Tomoki's has always been capable of high scores. However, he melts down very frequently and can't really be counted on.

I thought he is having injury and other issues the last two years.
Could be wrong.

Before 2021 he was on a steady rise and had a decent track record. But his personal bests were in the 210s range, not super high. Could be wrong as this is from memory

 

[Karen-W]

I thought he is having injury and other issues the last two years.
Could be wrong.

Before 2021 he was on a steady rise and had a decent track record. But his personal bests were in the 210s range, not super high. Could be wrong as this is from memory

No, his PB was 240.78 at 2020 4CCs -

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00014495.htm

 

[Mell]

I had just been reading the fan thread. I caught my error and edited my post while you were writing yours.


Yes. That pesky rulebook that calls for people to be good at more than quads.

I suppose it depends on what people mean by "everything he can." He was training to do a quad and then stopped training it when he was injured and was prioritizing staying healthy for the Olympic season. He has said that he is only going to compete if he can do so while being healthy. It's not impossible to add more difficult jumps when you're older. (Amber Glenn only recently added the triple axel and has landed it once cleanly.) Jason will pay a price in scores and placement for not having the quad. But, quads aside, I don't think his programs are easy.

People should also be good at more than just gliding across the ice "beautifully" , unless you're an ice dancer
But since Brown has nothing else going for him, that's all that is being pointed out- and everything is forgotten and everything is perfect. God forbid a skater is good at what makes figure skating a sport. It's always "but artistry " just because your fave can't do the tech content. It can go both ways, where is the improvement in the tech of your "artist"? Where are the quads? But they don't have to work or improve on anything because they move "beautifully", that's enough
Just pointing out double standards.

 

[skatingguy]

People should also be good at more than just gliding across the ice "beautifully" , unless you're an ice dancer
But since Brown has nothing else going for him, that's all that is being pointed out- and everything is forgotten and everything is perfect. God forbid a skater is good at what makes figure skating a sport. It's always "but artistry " just because your fave can't do the tech content. It can go both ways, where is the improvement in the tech of your "artist"? Where are the quads? But they don't have to work or improve on anything because they move "beautifully", that's enough

Quality of skating is the basis for the sport - the difficulty of the technical elements comes next.

 

[Trillian]

People should also be good at more than just gliding across the ice "beautifully" , unless you're an ice dancer
But since Brown has nothing else going for him, that's all that is being pointed out- and everything is forgotten and everything is perfect. God forbid a skater is good at what makes figure skating a sport. It's always "but artistry " just because your fave can't do the tech content. It can go both ways, where is the improvement in the tech of your "artist"? Where are the quads? But they don't have to work or improve on anything because they move "beautifully", that's enough

Have you considered writing to someone to the ISU to explain that quads are the only “tech content”? The scoring system that currently applies to all the athletes has mistakenly been giving TES points things like difficult spins, step sequences, and other jumps that aren’t quads, so sometimes when a skater executes those things cleanly at a high level they accidentally score pretty well against skaters who fall on a bunch of quads. I’m sure they’ll be relieved if you point out the mistake. You might just save figure skating. The programs will certainly be a lot shorter anyway, if skaters don’t have to waste time doing all those other things that aren’t athletic skills dependent on technique anymore. Maybe we can even get rid of the music entirely!

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Something went wrong when technical became synonymous with jumps. There is technique in all of skating. The glide across the ice in three different positions has technique. A scratch spin is full of technique and no one can do them anymore. Sakamoto has an ordinary jump repetoire for an elite skater. But, the quality of what she does has made her a two-time world champion and Olympic metalist over those with similar content.

 

[Trillian]

Something went wrong when technical became synonymous with jumps.

In terms of the scoring, it really hasn’t, or we wouldn’t have a skater like Jason Brown finishing 5th at Worlds in 2023. There is still a lot of incentive for skaters to develop a more well-rounded technical repertoire and most of the skaters winning major titles are great at more than just the jumps. There have certainly been some hiccups and there’s a lot of room to debate exactly how the various skills should be quantified in terms of scoring, but I don’t think the sport is in dire shape. IMO the joke here (fortunately) is really “the rule book doesn’t say what some people think it does.”

 

[On My Own]

Yes. That pesky rulebook that calls for people to be good at more than quads.

Really? I despise Brown's skating and laugh at the claims about how amazing his technique and artistry are, but let's keep it real - his PCS at that challenger event being lower than Siao Him Fa's and Kagiyama's and especially Malinin's in the SP is farcical, even with those mistakes. Sure, different judging panels, but I would guess they're going to be very close by worlds. The 'rulebook' has always been irrelevant.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

In terms of the scoring, it really hasn’t.....

I didn`t quite say it right. Sure, the technical number includes spin points, step points, etc. Maybe it`s the way the word "technical" gets used. Usually, when fans and even commentators say a skater is a technical skater they are talking about jumps. (I thought it was just IJS but watching some 6.0 competitions it was there too. And the marking could be harsh. If I heard this right a fall was -.4. If the winners were scoring between 5.5 and 5.9 - technically - that`s a big ding.)

 

[Trillian]

I didn`t quite say it right. Sure, the technical number includes spin points, step points, etc. Maybe it`s the way the word "technical" gets used. Usually, when fans and even commentators say a skater is a technical skater they are talking about jumps. (I thought it was just IJS but watching some 6.0 competitions it was there too. And the marking could be harsh. If I heard this right a fall was -.4. If the winners were scoring between 5.5 and 5.9 - technically - that`s a big ding.)

I think I get what you’re saying. The technical score takes a lot of things into account, but when people talk about “pushing technical boundaries” or “progress” in the sport, they’re almost invariably talking about jumps. And it doesn’t have to be that way, but IJS does reinforce that way of thinking because jumps are the only element without a ceiling. If a skater is already getting level 4s with +5 GOEs on spins and footwork, the most interesting technical innovation in the world would be worth zero points. But add a quad and your base value goes up - even if it’s not clean, in some cases.

I don’t remember much about what kind of mandatory deductions there were under 6.0 or how consistently they were enforced, but aside from dance, I do generally think the results tend to look about the same as I would have expected back then.

 

[gkelly]

I didn`t quite say it right. Sure, the technical number includes spin points, step points, etc. Maybe it`s the way the word "technical" gets used. Usually, when fans and even commentators say a skater is a technical skater they are talking about jumps. (I thought it was just IJS but watching some 6.0 competitions it was there too. And the marking could be harsh. If I heard this right a fall was -.4. If the winners were scoring between 5.5 and 5.9 - technically - that`s a big ding.)

In short programs, from the earlyish 1990s through the end of IJS, the maximum short program deduction was 0.4 per required element (or 0.5 for a required element that was completely omitted).

Some elements had higher maximums earlier in the history of the short program.

There were several different severe errors that could merit 0.4 deductions, or smaller errors with smaller deductions could add up (subtract down?) to 0.4 off the base value of the program as a whole.

I.e., the short program deductions worked very similarly to the negative GOEs in IJS.

In free skates, the only deductions were for rule violations (e.g., time violation, costume violation, illegal element).

The real meat of the score was in the base values for each program. But there wasn't nearly as systematic or consistent a method for setting those base values for Technical Merit (or for Presentation). Judges were instructed what to take into consideration, but they were each free to set their own weighting for the difficulty of the jumps and other elements, the difficulty of the skating, the quality of each, etc.

I think I get what you’re saying. The technical score takes a lot of things into account, but when people talk about “pushing technical boundaries” or “progress” in the sport, they’re almost invariably talking about jumps. And it doesn’t have to be that way, but IJS does reinforce that way of thinking because jumps are the only element without a ceiling.

Technically, it would be possible to figure out the maximum possible jump value under the current rules, which would undoubtedly include two quad axels, one of each other quad, two triple axels, and whatever other three triples could fill out legal combinations/sequences, with the highest value elements in the bonus period.

There isn't currently anyone capable of delivering that content and quite likely never will be. But unless quintuples get added to the Scale of Values, that would be the theoretical ceiling for jump base values.

And then it would be up to that skater to maintain high enough GOEs to score ahead of others with slightly lower difficulty but better execution.

If a skater is already getting level 4s with +5 GOEs on spins and footwork, the most interesting technical innovation in the world would be worth zero points. But add a quad and your base value goes up - even if it’s not clean, in some cases.

Very true.

I don’t remember much about what kind of mandatory deductions there were under 6.0 or how consistently they were enforced,

Here's the list from 2000-2001:

Short Program Deductions (6.0)

Again, very similar to the negative GOE reductions.

 

[Allskate]

Really? I despise Brown's skating and laugh at the claims about how amazing his technique and artistry are, but let's keep it real - his PCS at that challenger event being lower than Siao Him Fa's and Kagiyama's and especially Malinin's in the SP is farcical, even with those mistakes. Sure, different judging panels, but I would guess they're going to be very close by worlds. The 'rulebook' has always been irrelevant.

I was referring to the rulebook calling for more than quads. That's true for TES and PCS. How judges actually score PCS is a different issue. But, yes, I do think that skaters sometimes get inflated PCS scores because of good quads. When you add to that the fact that there is much greater variance in technical scores than in PCS scores and consider how much a good quad can score for the TES compared to other jumps and technical elements, quads end up counting for a heck of a lot. But, that doesn't mean that the rulebook just takes quads into account or even that the judges do. They don't just add up the number of quads. If they did, Shoma would have won NHK. (I actually think he should have, but that's a different issue.)

 

[On My Own]

But, that doesn't mean that the rulebook just takes quads into account or even that the judges do. If they did, Shoma would have won NHK. (I actually think he should have, but that's a different issue.)

But that's what I mean though, I don't think anyone actually cares about the rulebook or what's written in it. They just seem to manipulate the scores as they see fit, and men's discipline is looking as bad as ice dance in that regard to me this season...

ETA: Oh, and keeping in line with skating being a nebulous sport, the rulebook itself is nebulous, which is how this manipulation is enabled. This is 100% a comment on all the pride being displayed on this thread with comments about how the rulebook says this or that or how one should read the rulebook, because if someone really did, they would be nowhere near as confident as they are on this thread or its previous iteration.

 

[Marco]

Technically, it would be possible to figure out the maximum possible jump value under the current rules, which would undoubtedly include two quad axels, one of each other quad, two triple axels, and whatever other three triples could fill out legal combinations/sequences, with the highest value elements in the bonus period.

4flip
4sal
3lutz
3flip
* bonus *
4axel-3axel-3axel
4axel4toe
4lutz4loop

Like this?

 

[Marco]

4flip
4sal
3lutz
3flip
* bonus *
4axel-3axel-3axel
4axel4toe
4lutz4loop

Like this?

4sal
3axel
3lutz
3flip
* bonus *
4axel-4axel-3axel
4flip4toe
4lutz4loop

Pushing the 4flip to the bonus section too