U.S. Ladies [#29]: Skating with Adjusted Vision

[Braulio]

Tennell and CHEN!! for Worlds (if happen)

 

[Sonata]

Pleasantly surprised. Chen is more likely to get better marks and I thought she would get passed over for not being flashy and not fitting the spunky white girl narrative US marketing and networks are so fond of.
I really found Glenn’s skate empty, I didn’t get the talk about a standing ovation if a crowd were there. If she had an iffy performance, she’d plunge down the standings at worlds. A bit worried Chen will get dumped on and criticized if she doesn’t manage top 10, if there is a worlds, but she has a better chance than Glenn IMO.

 

[Lacey]

Amber has much bigger jumps than Chen, she would have done better at Worlds, and I could have seen her putting in the 3A, she was robbed of the opportunity she qualified for with a great program.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I suppose they think Karen has a higher ceiling. International judges have shown love to her and if she can eek the jumps out properly they will reward her. Amber on the other hand doesn’t have much reputation and even if she hits she likely won’t get the high marks for it and at best will be around 10th. Also Amber has potential to finish far lower then Karen too.

But this also makes the whole “body of work” for next year’s Olympics selection kind of problematic in a way. How can Amber make a body of work to make her case if she isn’t being given the chance to prove herself to start with?

 

[xxibjt]

Based on World Rankings I think they should have sent Amber. Bradie is ranked #2, Mariah #14, Amber #26 and Karen #39. Also Amber placed second at nationals.

http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsladies.htm

 

[Natanielle825]

I suppose they think Karen has a higher ceiling. International judges have shown love to her and if she can eek the jumps out properly they will reward her. Amber on the other hand doesn’t have much reputation and even if she hits she likely won’t get the high marks for it and at best will be around 10th. Also Amber has potential to finish far lower then Karen too.

But this also makes the whole “body of work” for next year’s Olympics selection kind of problematic in a way. How can Amber make a body of work to make her case if she isn’t being given the chance to prove herself to start with?

I dont see Karen finishing any higher. Safe to assume if everyone skated well they would both be behind 3 Russian girls, 3 Japanese girls, Bradie, and one or 2 Korean girls. International judges might give her decent PCS but that will only get her so far if she's the only one in the top 10 not doing a 3-3 in the FS.
Especially if worlds gets cancelled, I hope next year's Olympic team decision doesnt have to come down to a "body of work" decision because what a nightmare.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I sort of think it doesn’t matter what combo is sent if there is a worlds—it’s a tall order to get 3 spots for US ladies.

Glenn had a great nationals, but given her history, how do you know if it was a start of something or a one-time event? I think if 4CC were happening, they would have had a skate-off between her, Bell, and Chen. There isn’t though. All things considered, with Olympic spots on the line, I think Chen was a logical choice. She has championship experience. She wasn’t perfect, but I think she showed the most consistency between the two events this season. She was the Toyota Corolla of the choices USFS has.

I also recall USFS has in the past rolled the dice by sending out inconsistent skaters to worlds after they had a good skate at nationals and it not end well for spots.

If it were an Olympics trip itself, I’d have sent Glenn because you don’t earn spots for the next year at the Olympics.

 

[Karen-W]

I dont see Karen finishing any higher. Safe to assume if everyone skated well they would both be behind 3 Russian girls, 3 Japanese girls, Bradie, and one or 2 Korean girls. International judges might give her decent PCS but that will only get her so far if she's the only one in the top 10 not doing a 3-3 in the FS.
Especially if worlds gets cancelled, I hope next year's Olympic team decision doesnt have to come down to a "body of work" decision because what a nightmare.

The Korean girls aren't likely to be a factor this season, IMO. You is the only one who has competed internationally and she was a mess at NHK - dead last in the SP. There is really limited ice time in South Korea at the moment due to the crud - so limited the KSF isn't able to hold any of their internal ranking competitions. I'm not sure they'll even be able to send any skaters to Sweden except possibly Cha for the men unless the Korean government lightens up its travel restrictions.

I think Karen is likely to finish 8th, possibly even 7th if Satoko has a bad day and Karen has a great one. If Bradie skates slightly better than expectations (5th-6th), it's not out of the realm of possibility for the US to earn a 3rd spot.

 

[Tesla]

Tennell and Chen were named to Worlds. Alternates-- Glenn, Bell, Shin

I read this and was very confused because I thought Nathan Chen and was like "but the men just finished the short program." Took me reading another post to realize my mistake.

 

[dancing_on_ice]

I think Karen was the right choice for worlds since she and Amber were effectively tied (less than one point of difference), Karen has had better success at recent competitions, and Karen has a stronger international reputation which will lead to higher PCS. I just really hope the US can somehow get three spots for next year's Oympics.

 

[VGThuy]

And one could ask, how many American ladies placed as high as 4th at a highly stacked Worlds with the same or nearly similar odds of getting three spots that was competing at Nationals this weekend?

 

[skatingguy]

And one could ask, how many American ladies placed as high as 4th at a highly stacked Worlds with the same or nearly similar odds of getting three spots that was competing at Nationals this weekend?

I think what you're trying to say here is that Karen finished 4th in 2017, so why couldn't someone do that again, but the field for this year is very different than it was 4 years ago. It's deeper, more technically advanced, and more consistent than 2017.

 

[VGThuy]

Is it though? We still have three highly competitive Russians, Japanese skaters with Kihira who have similar chances of hitting as they always do, and South Koreans who are in the mix to place well but seem inconsistent this season. The difference this time is we’re missing two world medal capable Canadians and don’t have Kostner like we did in Pyeongchang. It’s pretty similar to 2017 actually.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

OUTRAGEOUS DECISION

LOL, yup.

3 years ago I was vocal that Ashley deserved the Olys as well.

Karen has had plentyyyyyy of chances and plentyyy of opportunities. Like Tara and Johnny said during the mens SP USFSA isnt thinking of the future. Karen aint adding no 3 axel or quad for next year. And Amber had clearly no URs in her free program and I know Karen had for sure one in the free, and the international panel will surely hand over to her an early easter basket of carrots.

For some reason USFSA will point its arrow to Karen because like 5-6 years ago she finished 4th at worlds.... okey-dokey, lol

I dont mind Karens programs this year but Amber proved she deserved her tix.

 

[mjb52]

I like both Amber and Karen but I do see an argument for encouraging skaters to try the hard stuff and rewarding those who do.

 

[Willin]

You nailed it. I can't recall much of her actual skating because I was so distracted by the (often inappropriate) grin that never left her face.

Alysa reminds me a lot of child actors. Not the Jodie Foster type of child actor who grows up into a fine adult actor. But rather those child actors who are overly coached by their stage parent(s) to always smile and be cute and bubbly.

WTF is with these people who thinks Alysa has a crazy stage dad. Yeah I know crazy parents are common in skating (Nathan, Vincent, Polina recently), but you also have skaters like Alysa and Jason Brown who just genuinely love to skate. How many times do we have to tell you her dad is hardly at the rink when she skates? How many times do I have to tell you that I've personally watched her playing with other kids on the ice like anyone her age? How can you not recognize her joy and excitement mic'd up here?

Idk if it's a racist stereotype against asian parents or a stereotype that only abused and overworked kids are doing 3As and quads at 12, but it needs to go away. Alysa genuinely likes what she does.

I'm going to be the counter-opinion because I think Alysa is just naturally like that. Having watched some of the clips posted by Lipetski's group in the past, she was always goofing off and in the best of moods. From every article or social media clip I've seen this season, she's seemed totally realistic and, to me, ultimately care-free about the result as much as getting through this process and still having fun.

I know everyone would love a happy medium, but we don't typically see it, especially in youngsters. If it were the opposite and she was always sulking, there would surely be a thread about the possibility of her being forced to continue to skate or questions of whether she even likes it. I'd prefer the happy, 15 year old Alysa.

ITA. I'd much rather see her smiling and happy than sulking. Did it fit the program? No. But it was a lot more fun to watch than some of the older skaters who were skating scared and a whole lot more natural than the serious faces we see from other 15-year-old seniors.

 

[Frau Muller]

Is it though? We still have three highly competitive Russians, Japanese skaters with Kihira who have similar chances of hitting as they always do, and South Koreans who are in the mix to place well but seem inconsistent this season. The difference this time is we’re missing two world medal capable Canadians and don’t have Kostner like we did in Pyeongchang. It’s pretty similar to 2017 actually.

There’s also one Kazakh in the mix, yes? We keep forgetting Tursy as competition.

 

[skatingguy]

There’s also one Kazakh in the mix, yes? We keep forgetting Tursy as competition.

Is she though? It's been almost two years. Is this like with Sotnikova where we say she's still training & she's going to compete, only to pull out of competitions.

 

[VGThuy]

LOL, yup.

3 years ago I was vocal that Ashley deserved the Olys as well.

Karen has had plentyyyyyy of chances and plentyyy of opportunities. Like Tara and Johnny said during the mens SP USFSA isnt thinking of the future. Karen aint adding no 3 axel or quad for next year. And Amber had clearly no URs in her free program and I know Karen had for sure one in the free, and the international panel will surely hand over to her an early easter basket of carrots.

For some reason USFSA will point its arrow to Karen because like 5-6 years ago she finished 4th at worlds.... okey-dokey, lol

I dont mind Karens programs this year but Amber proved she deserved her tix.

Bullshit. The USFS Never gave Karen an assignment she didn’t earn herself. She beat Ashley at 2018 Nationals. That was Ashley’s own fault for not skating well enough to get a top 3 placement. It’s not Karen’s fault she beat Ashley at 2017 Worlds as well to get a BOW nod on top of placing higher at Nationals so that Ashley couldn’t leapfrog over another skater who beat her at Nationals for a second Olympics in a row.

And how did Amber shut the door on Karen? By virtually tying with her at Nationals and consistently losing to Karen even when Karen hd that one really bad season otherwise?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Bullshit. The USFS Never gave Karen an assignment she didn’t earn herself.

She didNT earn this one hun

And she ain’t trying anything new that can compete with the future

Oh and a downgrade

 

[Sonata]

WTF is with these people who thinks Alysa has a crazy stage dad. Yeah I know crazy parents are common in skating (Nathan, Vincent, Polina recently), but you also have skaters like Alysa and Jason Brown who just genuinely love to skate. How many times do we have to tell you her dad is hardly at the rink when she skates? How many times do I have to tell you that I've personally watched her playing with other kids on the ice like anyone her age? How can you not recognize her joy and excitement mic'd up here?

Idk if it's a racist stereotype against asian parents or a stereotype that only abused and overworked kids are doing 3As and quads at 12, but it needs to go away. Alysa genuinely likes what she does.

Yes Danny Kwan was accused of being this type of parent, as were Patrick Chan’s parents, and it’s a stereotype often applied to the Asian parents in skating. I don’t know Alyssa Liu’s situation, but it’s no wonder her dad would be very present in her life. She is a minor, as were Michelle and Patrick when came into prominence.

Alysa looks like a joyful skater to me, enjoyed her program.

 

[RoseRed]

Personally, I think Alysa's smile is genuine and I enjoy watching her, but it is fair to point out that pretty much showing the same expression the whole time isn't exactly great interpretation. I've done a lot of acting, and it's something that I really enjoy doing. But I'm not going to smile the whole time on stage unless the scene or whatever I'm doing calls for it. I know that skating isn't the same as acting, but I think it still applies.

For me, it works in the SP (I don't love the program, and you can argue about whether it reflects the source material, but it works with the direction she's taken), but I think the FS would definitely be improved by her showing more variety in expression. I hope that's something that she works on in the future. And it doesn't have to be all dark and dramatic - I think you could have a program with an overall joyful vibe that still has a bit more variety / depth in the interpretation.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Expression isn’t just about facial expression, although I do agree she should work on not smiling when it would better suit the program if she didn’t. It’s about using ones whole body. I’m seeing a lot more whole body use this time. I also say do this with dance and pairs: watch a program but don’t watch the face. Watch what is going on from below the neck. (Then watch it again and watch just what’s happening from knees through blades.)

 

[Holy Headband]

She’s only 15 FFS. Two years ago she had nothing but jumps and a smile. She’s clearly been hard at work adding other elements and skills to her skating. Nuanced facial expressions can still be layered on top of her other improvements in the future.

Performing with a vacant smile regardless of the music is more common in rhythmic gymnastics, which is another sport I’m familiar with, than in figure skating, and there it’s definitely not a sign of coming from an abusive household. It just means your coach told you to smile.

American fans really don’t need to be concerned for Alysa Liu right now.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Good choices. Must have been hard to choose between Chen and Bell. Wait, Bell is not the first alternate? Ouch.

After the way Bell skated she did not did not make her case for Worlds. Karen is stunning and motivated. I think she was a great choice. And Brandie......no brainier.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Just as I suspected. Karen is a beautiful skater, but I just can't see the combination of her and Tennell getting three spots back for Team USA.

I am so sorry for Amber because she really showed her true potential this week. Not choosing her for Sweden details that the National Championships have lost their importance.

 

[dinakt]

ITA. I'd much rather see her smiling and happy than sulking. Did it fit the program? No. But it was a lot more fun to watch than some of the older skaters who were skating scared and a whole lot more natural than the serious faces we see from other 15-year-old seniors.

I agree. Alysa's expression did not seem fake to me at all. It seemed like exuberance- to be on ice, to be competing, to be young. It is a rare quality and I think we should cherish it. Give her 3 years, and she'll learn to be dramatic when dramatic is being called for. For now, she just loves showing what she can do on ice, and I found it refreshing.
Alysa's turnaround from October to now is spectacular. If she can build on it, she'll be back on top.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Just as I suspected. Karen is a beautiful skater, but I just can't see the combination of her and Tennell getting three spots back for Team USA.

I am so sorry for Amber because she really showed her true potential this week. Not choosing her for Sweden details that the National Championships have lost their importance.

National championships are used to crown the national champion.

 

[Natanielle825]

There’s also one Kazakh in the mix, yes? We keep forgetting Tursy as competition

It's not that we're forgetting. But she was too injured to compete last year and hasn't been around this year. While she might show up next year in 2019 condition, it's not reasonable to factor her in at this point.

Karen aint adding no 3 axel or quad for next year.

She did say she's been working on a triple axel. Words are wind but so are triple axels done in practice, so I'm not giving Amber much more credit on that front either. Karen, Amber, Alysa and hopefully Bradie could all be trying triple axels next year, whether any of them will actually do it when it counts is a mystery. I am getting hung up on the fact that Karen didn't try any 3-3s in the free and her one in the short was underrotated. Amber did 2 great ones and was planning a third. The ladies field being what it is, it's hard for me to take either Karen or Mariah seriously on the technical front.

And one could ask, how many American ladies placed as high as 4th at a highly stacked Worlds with the same or nearly similar odds of getting three spots that was competing at Nationals this weekend?

Karen might get 4th in 2021 because she got 4th in 2017? Not a chance. Karen got 3 personal best scores at 2020 4CC and was still 7th. It IS a different field.

The Korean girls aren't likely to be a factor this season, IMO.

Fair point about most of them - Yelim, Eunsoo, etc. But I think Young is still in Japan so would presumably be able to go if the Japanese skaters could. I wouldn't count on her and Satoko having meltdowns, but anything is possible. By that argument, I suppose Amber could beat them too. I did make my predicted placement based on everyone skating well.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I am happy Amber learned and tried 3A. But i understand why the US Feds chose Karen. Karen's skating/style is more refined, and she has more experience. Amber's tech content is stronger but she does not have the "polish" and performance elements.

As to the possible World? i can see clean Bradie beating Satoko, and Wakabe (maybe, if she does not land her 3A). Japan only has 1 Ladies on the World team with 3A and quads and that's Rika. I can also see very clean and inspired Karen beating Satoko (maybe). I can also see Bradie beating Tukhtamysheva if Tuk does not do well her 3A and possibly the quad.