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Foolhardy Ham Lint

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svea

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Chen´s way of upper-body movements, carrying her arms and melting into music is world-class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SViRYAWqArQ
What she does from 2:03 on and especially at 4:11 is just beautifully refined and meaningful at the same time.
I just compared it to the rusnats videos and although the emphasis there is on "refinement" to conceal the lack of expressiveness in youngsters while preferring them over more expressive competitors, Chen´s movements are imo an example of what refinement in skating is about. Never rushed or just positions, but deliberately while naturally elegant.

Nonetheless, I don´t think it´s fair nor a good idea to send her to worlds.

To be honest, I remembered Glenn to be a more artistic skater from former nationals, but if someone finishes higher at nats plus has harder tec content, he/she should be sent to worlds.

And world-class body-expression, or even step-sequences, transitions and so on ... won´t win a medal at international competitions.
The rule is jump-jump-jump and make up for the rest in politics.

That´s why russians are sacrificing the artistic component (and I´m not blaming them, cause this kind of influencing, managing and judging competitions is a long time tradition in FS), even the more as PCS are sort of a second TES marks section rather than real program components, so that an strong PCS skater will even on the PCS site be outraged by a strong TES skater.

So, to me there is no sense in sending someone artistically strong as long as she has no 3A perspective (and not even a 3-3).
If the feds would stop to play political games on the international stage, they could stop to act according to these games rules on the national stage, judge what is put on the ice and sent the successors.
Finally, there would be real competitions.
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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While anything can happen, I think Russia's #2 and #3 from 2017 worlds (Pogo & Sotskova) had a much wider variance in their performance potential than whoever the #2 and #3 will be this year.

It seems a bit silly, but what saved Karen here is that she and Glenn are basically the same age. While she had success far earlier than Glenn, it's not like Glenn represents some kind of relative youth movement. Glenn has a history of mistakes, but she has been steadily improving. A real shame that her trajectory, ability to rotate and +GOE wasn't rewarded with a trip to Worlds. I hope they are letting her know she matters.
 

jlai

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Both Karen and Glenn have had two good internationals the last two times they competed. 2020 4cc and this season's skate America (despite the placements, both skated well at 4cc).

While I slightly prefer Glenn, I don't have a major issue with Karen given she is trending up, imho
 

Skibean

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I think anything can happen. Bradie isn’t beating the top 3 Russian girls. She’s looking at 4th if it’s a skate of a lifetime for her. I don’t even know that she could beat Rika. If anyone is going to get on that podium, that isn’t Russian, it’ll be Rika.
I won’t even make a guess as to how Karen will do. She’s a beautiful skater. I have always liked her, but in the past her competition results have not been what they could have been. Amber should’ve been given an opportunity to compete.
I do see a lot of young, ambitious skaters coming up that aren’t afraid of the harder jumps, so Nationals results next year might look a lot different.
 

jlai

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I think anything can happen. Bradie isn’t beating the top 3 Russian girls. She’s looking at 4th if it’s a skate of a lifetime for her. I don’t even know that she could beat Rika. If anyone is going to get on that podium, that isn’t Russian, it’ll be Rika.
I won’t even make a guess as to how Karen will do. She’s a beautiful skater. I have always liked her, but in the past her competition results have not been what they could have been. Amber should’ve been given an opportunity to compete.
I do see a lot of young, ambitious skaters coming up that aren’t afraid of the harder jumps, so Nationals results next year might look a lot different.
I think Amber should get the chance; that said, the part about "results have not been what they could have been" apply to just about anyone except Bradie.
 

her grace

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I'm not a fan of how USFS has used BOW, which usually means they're about one season behind in how they evaluate skaters. But despite the fact that I would choose Glenn, I don't think Chen's selection is indefensible.

Chen is fairly reliable; yes, she's not usually perfect, but she doesn't often meltdown. And she's done well in international championships before. She's a pretty steady competitor and she has great PCS to help her out if things go amiss. But her underrotations and downgradeable jumps will probably not allow her to climb too high into the top 10.

Glenn has not shown consistency. Of course, her technical upside is a lot higher than Chen's, but it's more questionable whether she would hit. It's sad that she doesn't have 4CC to go to as that would make missing Worlds easier to bear and would be an opportunity to try the 3A again and to show that she can hit in international competition.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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Other than the prestige of showcasing national talent, is holding US Nationals actually relevant any more?

Perhaps there needs to be an event created specifically for world team selection instead.
 
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VGThuy

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Yes. Nationals is the reason Mariah Bell is not only not going to Worlds but isn’t even first alternate. Had Glenn blown Karen out of the water rather than virtually tie with her, the selection may have been different.
 

Vagabond

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I have never been a big fan of using the "Body of Work" criteria rather than placement at Nationals, but using BOW this season seems especially silly. U.S. skaters haven't competed in any competitions with an international judging panel since Four Continents and their training has been severely disrupted. That said, I wish that USFS had waited until after the ISU Council meeting on the 26th before making any decisions other than to tell Tennell, Glenn, Chen, Bell, and Shin to keep on training and that they would all either be named to the World Team or designated as alternates in the event that the ISU didn't cancel the event at the meeting.
 
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Rukia

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I have never been a big fan of using the "Body of Work" criteria rather than placement at Nationals, but using BOW this season seems especially silly. U.S. skaters haven't competed in any competitions with an international judging panel since Four Continents and their training has been severely disrupted. That said, I wish that USFS had waited until after the IOC Council meeting on the 26th before making any decisions other than to tell Tennell, Glenn, Chen, Bell, and Shin to keep on training and that they would all either be named to the World Team or designated as alternates in the event that the ISU didn't cancel the event at the meeting.
The fact is though, with the way everything is going (especially in the US), they should all be training to be at the top of their game until either worlds actually starts or worlds is officially canceled. The odds of an alternate being used are probably higher this year than most.
 

skatingguy

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I have never been a big fan of using the "Body of Work" criteria rather than placement at Nationals, but using BOW this season seems especially silly. U.S. skaters haven't competed in any competitions with an international judging panel since Four Continents and their training has been severely disrupted. That said, I wish that USFS had waited until after the IOC Council meeting on the 26th before making any decisions other than to tell Tennell, Glenn, Chen, Bell, and Shin to keep on training and that they would all either be named to the World Team or designated as alternates in the event that the ISU didn't cancel the event at the meeting.
ISU*
 

olympic

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Stupid question - Who is Russia's team for Worlds?

I think this year is super-hard to handicap because of YKW. I am a failure in the best of times, but this year it's impossible. If I were in the USFSA, I would probably have chosen Bradie and Karen. Although it occurred to me that a test skate in late Feb. may not be a bad idea to test Mariah and Karen, but give Amber a chance to prove the transformation if real. There has been a lack of competition this year due to the shut down of the GP and Challenger series, so I don't think a test skate would be exhausting to the skaters.
 

Tinami Amori

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Stupid question - Who is Russia's team for Worlds?
So far only Shcherbakova is confirmed. The Feds said that the "team" will be determined after "the Russian Cup Finals (RCF) and few other criteria". It is likely, by logic, that Trusova will be on the team. For the third spot it is possible to chose between Tuktamysheva and Kostornaya (if Kostornaya regains form and skates in the RCF); or... at the RCF another lady may surprise and win the event (Tsibinova, Frolova, Gulyakova... ) depending on who participates.
 

Tinami Amori

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Then what’s the point of holding Russian Nationals? :saint:
This year (and in 2019) there were special circumstances which supposedly justify using Rus. Cup. Finals for selection of the 2nd and 3rd participant. In 2019 Tuktamysheva was out of Nationals due to pneumonia, yet she was a Team contender, but so was Medvedeva, so they used Rus. Cup. Finals. This year Kostornaya was out sick, and she is a contender against Tuktamysheva who was also recently ill and not as stable. Then there is Trusova who is more of a wild card this year than she was last year, so the Feds want to see her skate again to be sure.
 

xxibjt

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Why doesn't the USFS do something similar? Given the unusual circumstances of this season why not hold another mini skate off between Karen, Amber and Mariah and then announce the worlds team? It's not like they should be in a rush considering we don't even know if worlds is going to even happen. People keep saying "what's the point of holding nationals then if you're just going host another competition to decide the worlds team"? If going by that argument then the world's team should have been Bradie and Amber who placed first and second and not Bradie and Karen who placed first and third.
 
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Tinami Amori

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Why doesn't the USFS do something similar? Given the unusual circumstances of this season why not hold another mini skate off between Karen, Amber and Mariah and then announce the worlds team?
Russian Cup Final is a long standing event that takes place every year. It is easy to use it for selection process. USA does not have such secondary to Nationals event, they would have to arrange the 3 ladies to come to one place and skate and that is difficult, plus the YKW condition adds another difficulty. Virtual performance/send in the video will not work either because it will not be a performance in a competitive setting.
 

Skibean

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The US would love to have a “wildcard” like Trusova. How anyone could consider such a talent a wildcard is baffling.
 
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ErikWilliam

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Bradie skated well for her. I just find her very uninteresting to watch. It's not that she's just boring, but her body positions and carriage and jumps are so mediocre, that there isn't even a flash of brilliance in her skating. Not one "Look at that layback!" "Look at her exquisite posture". Nothing. She gets the job done like Rachael Flatt. Bor-ing.

Amber skated the best I've seen from her. She skatees like a national champion IMO. Footwork was slow as molasses, but I was impressed. Too bad she's not going to Worlds.

Karen. I love her skating, and have since she first hit seniors 5 years ago. But come on, her boyfriend must be Bug Bunny because she always brings home a basketful of carrots. She has not ever corrected it. I would have gone with Amber for the Worlds spot. But minus the UR and DG's she's our best. Oh well, maybe she won't get a million calls at Worlds.

Alysa has definitely improved her basic skating, it's very noticeable. I was pleasantly surprised and relieved to see her skate so well. Hopefully she'll improve her Axel technique these next 12 months. I just can't see her doing ultra-si with her small jumps now that she isn't 70 pounds. But she seems to have a positive attitude, and that can make a world of difference.

Mariah. After her SP I was annoyed at her overscore. They really were pushing her this season! But she had a mediocre SP and a dismal FS. No way would she be held up. And see, I've never thought of her as a 'contender'. She always messes up most of the time, and her jumps have no strength or sureness. It's like she just ekes out a -3toe with no running edge and the commentators are "Wow, did she hold on for that!!" when they should be saying "She lacks confidence in her jumps, especially her landing edge". She's cute as a button, tiffed as all get out, but she doesn't look like a strong secure athlete. In that respect, she reminds me very much of Jill Trenary/Treachery. Most of Jill's jump landings were off, and it was strange that whenever she landed forward or off balance she'd never correct herself for the landing position. I mean, why can't she save the landing and pull herself back into a perfect landing position? She just freezes her landings in a very awkward beginnerish bad position. Mariah also reminds me of Tonia Kwiatkowski, a B level talent, and almost never skates cleanly. Maybe USFS will finally realize that she's not getting better, and she's not going to contend internationally.

Gracie. She doesn't even look like she wants to be doing this anymore. I know she only has one year to go that she's committed herself to, but there's no shame in letting it go. Get on with the new chapter, Gracie. You'll be happier. IMO.
 
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Natanielle825

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It's weird that Raf hasn't been able to do anything for Mariah's landings - Ashley was never the best jumper but she certainly didn't have such consistently poor technique.
As for Gracie, I don't know what to think. In interviews she always sounds like her head is in a better place and then she skates.
 

layman

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Bradie skated well for her. I just find her very uninteresting to watch. It's not that she's just boring, but her body positions and carriage and jumps are so mediocre, that there isn't even a flash of brilliance in her skating. Not one "Look at that layback!" "Look at her exquisite posture". Nothing. She gets the job done like Rachael Flatt. Bor-ing.

Amber skated the best I've seen from her. She skatees like a national champion IMO. Footwork was slow as molasses, but I was impressed. Too bad she's not going to Worlds.

Karen. I love her skating, and have since she first hit seniors 5 years ago. But come on, her boyfriend must be Bug Bunny because she always brings home a basketful of carrots. She has not ever corrected it. I would have gone with Amber for the Worlds spot. But minus the UR and DG's she's our best. Oh well, maybe she won't get a million calls at Worlds.

Alysa has definitely improved her basic skating, it's very noticeable. I was pleasantly surprised and relieved to see her skate so well. Hopefully she'll improve her Axel technique these next 12 months. I just can't see her doing ultra-si with her small jumps now that she isn't 70 pounds. But she seems to have a positive attitude, and that can make a world of difference.

Mariah. After her SP I was annoyed at her overscore. They really were pushing her this season! But she had a mediocre SP and a dismal FS. No way would she be held up. And see, I've never thought of her as a 'contender'. She always messes up most of the time, and her jumps have no strength or sureness. It's like she just ekes out a -3toe with no running edge and the commentators are "Wow, did she hold on for that!!" when they should be saying "She lacks confidence in her jumps, especially her landing edge". She's cute as a button, tiffed as all get out, but she doesn't look like a strong secure athlete. In that respect, she reminds me very much of Jill Trenary/Treachery. Most of Jill's jump landings were off, and it was strange that whenever she landed forward or off balance she'd never correct herself for the landing position. I mean, why can't she save the landing and pull herself back into a perfect landing position? She just freezes her landings in a very awkward beginnerish bad position. Mariah also reminds me of Tonia Kwiatkowski, a B level talent, and almost never skates cleanly. Maybe USFS will finally realize that she's not getting better, and she's not going to contend internationally.

Gracie. She doesn't even look like she wants to be doing this anymore. I know she only has one year to go that she's committed herself to, but there's no shame in letting it go. Get on with the new chapter, Gracie. You'll be happier. IMO.
Bradie can't win (as far as some people are concerned). She get's criticized for portraying Disney Princesses, but when she tries daring, innovative choreography she still get's criticized. No one notices the improved height on her axel or the cleanliness of her jumps. She may not be the best at any one element but she had the cleanest skates of any lady at this competition and deserves her (2nd) Title.

I am gutted for Amber. She finally puts it all together, skates with soul and passion, lands all her jumps and now this. The USFSA sure know how (not) to reward excellence.

As much as love Karen Chen, who I think does have the best layback and spirals of any lady, I don't think her skates were as clean as those of the top two and I think the top two should have been selected for Worlds.

I was pleasantly surprised by Alyssa Liu. She really buckled down with her training and showed up in the best shape of her life. I like the way she is adapting to her new physique. I see many, many improvements. Her speed and ice coverage have improved. Her musical interpretation has improved. Her posture and body line have improved. I hope she regains her confidence fully and comes back strong next season.
 

NAOTMAA

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Bradie is trying to retool her jumps so I think that explains a lot of her current ur issues on some jumps, specifically her combinations. At the same time however her improvement in all other areas of her skating is clearly noticeable, especially in her spins. She's really developing as the full package
 

Willin

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An article about East Bay native Alyssa Liu that mentions Karen Chen but neglects to say she's from the East Bay too. :lol:

The thing is that Karen moved away from the Bay to train with fancier coaches as soon as she got somewhat big. IIRC it was after she was chosen for the big solo act in the opening ceremonies at 2012(?) Nationals - to the same music she's using for her FS this year. So Alysa is certainly the better one to mention than Karen, who hasn't lived in Fremont or trained there full time for years.

Interestingly enough, Vincent moved away around the same time as well after drama at local rinks forced a move, but he's still considered "from the bay." that's the double standard I'm more interested in.


As for Karen being picked over Amber, I think if Amber had landed the 3A she'd be going. What I don't get about Karen over Amber (and I'm a fan of body of work) is that Amber has a much higher international ranking. How can she have a higher rank and still not be considered to have an equal if not better body of work than Karen? Although I think either is a valid choice for Worlds and I'm not too mad, I do wonder that...
 

Willin

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From what I've heard from skaters at his former bay area rinks he (or rather his mother) was allegedly kicked out of multiple rinks because a) his mother would make her way through coach after coach b) would yell at the coaches about how they were bad coaches because her son wasn't making the progress she wanted and c) she would break rink rules and get on the ice in her shoes to yell at a coach if they were too far from the boards. His mother eventually moved him to SoCal. AFAIK this is also why it wasn't until recently that a local club would sponsor him - and that was a club that didn't have the drama at their rinks.

The fact that Karen left under much more amicable circumstances with the Bay Area skating community while he left under much sketchier circumstances makes it so strange to me that Karen's not more adored by Bay Area fans. She's truly very nice and normal and is friends with a lot of local skaters while Vincent, as far as I know, isn't really friends with any local skaters or connected to any local clubs beyond sponsorship.
 
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