U.S. Ladies [#29]: Skating with Adjusted Vision

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Tinami Amori said:
Re Bell vs. Tennell and media/federation support. I am "camp Tennell" from day one, and never got into Bell from day one even before Tennell's appearance. But from marketing/media point of view (imo) Bell is more photogenic and more of a "cute typical american girl". Tennell, on the other hand, is more of an acquired taste, or rather "for those few who appreciate atypical beauty".
Bell you can put on any product package.
Tennell, not so...
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Nail on the Head.
 
Natanielle825 said:
Part of it is expectation. Bradie was branded "the most consistent girl in the US" (thanks a lot NBC) leading up to the Olympics, so every time she's missed a jump since then has been a let down. Mariah on the other hand was so inconsistent she didn't even make the team, so when she suddenly started skating relatively cleanly after the Olympics it was a nice surprise. They're both tough to watch this season because we count on Bradie for solid jumps and she doesn't have those, and we count on Mariah for good programs and she doesn't have those either. Plenty of time to get their acts together for next season, though obviously everything is harder than normal. Mariah I think is winning favor because she's sort of the opposite of the Russian skaters we see so much of - dodgy jumps but always looks like she loves skating, loves her music, loves performing, etc. Happy is always easier to like than serious. Bradie at one point looked like her triple triples were so solid she was ready to start trying triple axels and quads...and then didn't. She's also missing a signature style or iconic program. Mariah really had a "coming out" moment with her 2018-19 programs and I so hope some choreographer figures out what that could be for Bradie next year. I've seen her as many times as Mariah this season but I have no idea what she's skating to.
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I thought Bradie's programs last year were stellar. Bradie is ranked #2 in the world, and Marian is ranked 14th.....call me silly, but..................
 
The media seems to love Mariah. I remember the first time she skated at Senior Nationals how they really pushed her. I remember her as a pretty skater but i was not super impressed.

In a certain sense, both Jason Brown fall into the same category. Both are lovely skaters but neither have the big elements but what they do can do, they do well. Remember both were with Kori for awhile (Jason much longer than Mariah), I am sure that plays a role.
 
I'm so ****ing sick of people harping on the whole ice princess thing. Bell did not get where she is just by being "pretty" and to degenerate this athlete as only being a "pretty princess" is falling into the same misogynistic crap that gets thrown at this sport and falling into the idea of performance art and femininity = weak. FEMININITY IS NOT WEAK. It shouldn't be the only thing rewarded and skating needs to be open to all kinds of styles, but femininity in of itself shouldn't be used as a pejorative either, which happens all too often in these discussions that I feel are regressive and anti-female.

Regarding Bell herself, she has charisma, musicality, and actually has competitive skating skills to speedily skate across the ice with TES that is competitive with Tennell despite not always having a 3/3. She formulates her TES and maximizes what she can do. So she does it in a way that has some showmanship. Let's kill her and use her in a lazy example of her destroying feminism. And the Norma Desmond example is strange as hell. There's nothing really outdated about her skating except she attempts to actually expresses the music she's skating to. Is that concept dead in skating or something? Last time I checked, doing that actually showed off more athleticism and skill because you're exuding a lot of energy into skating with clean posture and care to detail. It's easy to be sloppy and look it.

For what it's worth, at 2016 Skate America, Ashley Wagner was the anointed one and people cheered for her the most BEFORE the skate. After the skates, especially the LP, it was Bell who got the largest ovations. There was a reason for that. Her skating quality back then was already better than Wagner's and she looked good competing against the likes of Daleman, Mihara, and Asada. Even though Gracie Gold was far from her best there, I really understood why she got high scores when she was on after I finally saw her live.

Also, someone mentioned Jason Brown in a dismissive way earlier. At that same Skate America, I was rooting for Shoma Uno hard before and after his skates, but seeing Jason Brown felt like a privilege. He was in such control over his body movements and everything he did was absolutely breathtaking and musical. His carriage and posture and line is RARE in this sport and should be applauded. In my mind, he gave the best performance despite me knowing why Uno won and would argue Uno deserved to win. I got why that volunteer by the boards burst into tears after Jason's skate. Watching him live is watching art.
 
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VGThuy said:
Also, someone mentioned Jason Brown in a dismissive way earlier. At that same Skate America, I was rooting for Shoma Uno hard before and after his skates, but seeing Jason Brown felt like a privilege. He was in such control over his body movements and everything he did was absolutely breathtaking and musical. His carriage and posture and line is RARE in this sport and should be applauded. In my mind, he gave the best performance despite me knowing why Uno won and would argue Uno deserved to win. I got why that volunteer by the boards burst into tears after Jason's skate. Watching him live is watching art.
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Since I believe I was the only one that mentioned Jason Brown, you must be referring to me.

My intent was not to be dismissive but rather give credit to what both Mariah and Jason do well.
 
I think both artistic and technical skaters can and should shine in their respective manners. At the end of the day, neither is “better” or “worse” than the other, it is simply based on the strengths and weaknesses of that athlete. Having the ability to combine both artistry and technicality on the ice is rare and that is why it is so sought after. I commend any athlete that is capable of doing what Jason and Mariah have been able to do. Are they jumping beans like other technical skaters? No. But they offer what most technical skaters do not and the technical skaters offer what Jason and Mariah do not and that is okay.
 
natsulian said:
I think both artistic and technical skaters can and should shine in their respective manners. At the end of the day, neither is “better” or “worse” than the other, it is simply based on the strengths and weaknesses of that athlete. Having the ability to combine both artistry and technicality on the ice is rare and that is why it is so sought after. I commend any athlete that is capable of doing what Jason and Mariah have been able to do. Are they jumping beans like other technical skaters? No. But they offer what most technical skaters do not and the technical skaters offer what Jason and Mariah do not and that is okay.
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Also, we could consider "technical" to apply not only to the elements, especially the jumps, but also to the skating skills in general. Speed/power and complexity can more easily be seen as technical qualities of the skating. But the effortlessness with which power is attained and the steadiness of the edges, smoothness of the glide are also reflections of superior technique, at the same time as producing a more pleasing aesthetic impression.

And then the complexity of the skating content between elements (the "multidirectional skating" and "one-foot skating" parts of the Skating Skills component, and the Variety and Difficulty aspects of the Transitions component) could be considered as technical content, while all aspects of Transitions also contribute to the aesthetic impact of the program, in conjunction with the Composition.

So those skaters who excel in technical skills related skating quality and to complexity of the skating between may not necessarily be weaker technical skaters than others who perform harder jumps. There's more to technical mastery than just jump content or even jump quality.

I'd point to Sato vs. Bonaly as a relatively stark example of the difference in skating technique.

Which is not necessarily related to who is more "artistic" -- depending on how you define that word.

Personally, I tend to think of smoother, more effortless gliding as more related to technique than to artistry. There may be a high correlation between skaters who excel at blade-to-ice technical skills and who excel at choreographic, interpretive, and performance qualities, but they're not the same thing.
 
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USFS published the list of 2021 Nationals qualifiers today - copying out the ladies but NOT the qualifying competition results/scores (using the competition thread in Kiss & Cry for that purpose).

Championship Ladies (18)
Starr Andrews (Los Angeles FSC) Bye-ISP PC
Mariah Bell (Rocky Mountain FSC) Bye
Karen Chen (Peninsula SC) Bye
Amber Glenn (Dallas FSC, Inc.) Bye
Gracie Gold (IceWorks SC)
Hanna Harrell (The Skating Club of Boston)
Finley Hawk (ISC of Indianapolis, Inc.)
Rena Ikenishi (The SC of New York, Inc.)
Gabriella Izzo (Academy at Mitchell Johansson Method)
Pooja Kalyan (Ozark FSC) Bye-ISP PC
Alysa Liu (St. Moritz ISC, Inc.) Bye
Heidi Munger (Academy at Mitchell Johansson Method)
Emilia Murdock (The Skating Club of San Francisco, Inc)
Paige Rydberg (Broadmoor SC, Inc.)
Audrey Shin (The SC of New York, Inc.) Bye-ISP PC
Bradie Tennell (Skokie Valley SC) Bye
Lindsay Thorngren (Ice House Of New Jersey FSC) Bye-ISP PC
Violeta Ushakova (The SC of New York, Inc.)

Junior Ladies (12)
Elsa Cheng (Skokie Valley SC)
Tamnhi Huynh (Dallas FSC, Inc.)
Mia Kalin (St. Moritz ISC, Inc.)
Isabeau Levito (SC Of Southern New Jersey)
Jessica Lin (Dallas FSC, Inc.)
Maryn Pierce (Broadmoor SC, Inc.)
Abigail Ross (Wasatch FSC)
Clare Seo (Broadmoor SC, Inc.)
Kanon Smith (All Year FSC)
Kate Wang (The Skating Club of San Francisco, Inc)
Adele Zheng (DuPage FSC)
Ava Ziegler (The SC of New York, Inc.)
 
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NAOTMAA said:
Bell is pretty much the stereotypical "ice princess on the music box" type of skater that the USFSA always loves.
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When will USFSA ever learn? I guess never

If you think the princess is what they want to market, it’s never done squat for them in terms of an Olympic gold except for Kristi Yamaguchi and that was it. Dorothy and Peg were so long for me to remember any strategies.

Kwan, Cohen, Gold and Bell have never ever left with top honors.

I will take my Shizuka, Sarah and Tennell ALL the time!

UNDERDOGS every time!!

Also I hope USFSA gives up this princess image soon. It’s so unhealthy. There’s so many colors to the rainbow.
 
Hanna.. wow! Although she didn’t go for her usual big 3-3s, I’m just elated to see her back on the ice! This is a big step forward for her and to see her come back was a great early Christmas gift!

I’m also impressed by Gracie’s performance where she only popped her Lutz and attacked everything else, including that gorgeous 3Lz3T!
 
Edited to clarify - Looks like Ting Cui did not submit a FS video to be judged and Courtney Hicks is listed as WD from Group B.

2 junior ladies in the ISP who are listed as WD in the final results are Hannah Herrera (Group B) and Haley Scott (Group E).

Caitlin Ha (S17 at 2020 Nationals) was listed in the ISP earlier this year, but her name was removed recently and she did not submit a FS video to be judged in the qualifying competition.
 
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Are people really comparing Mariah to Jason Brown? Jason may not be doing the quads but his programs are usually jam packed with transitions. He's easily one of the top men in the world when it comes to fully rounded programs despite having no quads. Mariah in comparison does close to zero transitions in hers. So not only does she not match the jump level of the top ladies she also doesn't match them in the transitions area either which is important under COP
 
Wow I must be officially old! I still love US skating. I like a complete program with jumps and artistry. And I like jumps that get off the ice. Oh yeah and spins, Czisny had gorgeous spins. I miss actual spirals... okay you all can continue putting them down but love them all. I haven’t watched Gracie yet, too nervous, but hope she did well.
 
Teamgracie said:
Wow I must be officially old! I still love US skating. I like a complete program with jumps and artistry. And I like jumps that get off the ice. Oh yeah and spins, Czisny had gorgeous spins. I miss actual spirals... okay you all can continue putting them down but love them all. I haven’t watched Gracie yet, too nervous, but hope she did well.
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Saw Alissa live when she won at Skate Canada with her Philip Glass program. She was magical.
 
Natanielle825 said:
Rude much? Everyone else is talking about their skating and you want to talk about their looks.
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The question was "why media is more interested in Bell than Tennell". I believe the reason is marketability, and the commercial side of it, and perhaps "human side" as well. Both ladies are close in skating results over last 2 years. Looks is not "the last" factor in subjective judging venues.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
When will USFSA ever learn? I guess never

If you think the princess is what they want to market, it’s never done squat for them in terms of an Olympic gold except for Kristi Yamaguchi and that was it. Dorothy and Peg were so long for me to remember any strategies.

Kwan, Cohen, Gold and Bell have never ever left with top honors.

I will take my Shizuka, Sarah and Tennell ALL the time!

UNDERDOGS every time!!

Also I hope USFSA gives up this princess image soon. It’s so unhealthy. There’s so many colors to the rainbow.
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Carol, Peggy & Dorothy were THE princesses for all time...perfect WASP marketing mold of that era. US marketing tastes changed with Kwan, more so than Kristy, who actually had “marketing challenges” with the old-style General public (but not with true skating fans). Kristy Y’s challenges were written about during her first year as pro...not making this up, sadly.
 
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UGG said:
I don’t think that’s true. She is very pretty. She just doesn’t have the “it” factor for whatever reason, compared to Mariah. Not everyone has it and that doesn’t really mean anything. See Ashley Wagner pre-2012. Bradie needs to take a page from Ashley’s book as far as reinventing herself, IMO. I’m not sure what she could do though.
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What do you mean "it" factor? Ashley Wagner created a lot of "hoopla" around herself, even pre-2012, do you expect Tennell to act the same? Wagner was young then... Bradie is over 20 and she is not a "hoopla" kind of lady. Bradie's behavior in public is superb.
 

Tinami Amori​

What do you mean "it" factor? Ashley Wagner created a lot of "hoopla" around herself, even pre-2012, do you expect Tennell to act the same? Wagner was young then... Bradie is over 20 and she is not a "hoopla" kind of lady. Bradie's behavior in public is superb.
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Ah the elusive IT FACTOR.
First what it is not:
It is not hoopla (although that will come along with it)
It is not behavior (although behavior will be noticed)


Defining the it factor
It’s not for sale, and yet it is one of the most sought after things in the world.


What am I talking about?

Charisma!

Movie stars have it. Some captains of industry exude it. Politicians who have lost it, are likely to lose the election.

'Wouldn’t you love to be that guy or gal that everyone wants to be around?
The person who commands a “presence” when they walk into a room. They radiate.
The person who exhibits magnetism that makes others naturally gravitate towards them."

These are people you can't take your eyes off of. When they take the ice you would not take a refrigerator break. When skating in a group i.e. Stars on Ice they are the ones your eyes go to.
Some figure skating examples. And it doesn't matter if they fall or skate clean. We feel fabulous that we watched them.

Jason Brown. Katarine Witt. Sasha Cohen. Kurt Browning. Scott Hamilton.

In politics: Obama, JFK, Clinton and Reagan.

Cinema: Shirley Temple....even at 3 years old. Lucile Ball.





 
Tinami Amori said:
What do you mean "it" factor? Ashley Wagner created a lot of "hoopla" around herself, even pre-2012, do you expect Tennell to act the same? Wagner was young then... Bradie is over 20 and she is not a "hoopla" kind of lady. Bradie's behavior in public is superb.
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The ability to connect with the audience. I used Ashley as an example because prior to 2012 she didn’t have it. Bradie is like Rachel Flatt- reliable and talented but missing the star quality. She just doesn’t draw in an audience the way Mariah can. I completely disagree it has to do with looks, as you have so shallowly suggested. Bradie is just as pretty as Mariah.
 
Frau Muller said:
Carol, Peggy & Dorothy were THE princesses for all time...perfect WASP marketing mold of that era. US marketing tastes changed with Kwan, more so than Kristy, who actually had “marketing challenges” with the old-style General public (but not with true skating fans). Kristy Y’s challenges were written about during her first year as pro...not making this up, sadly.
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Yup it was Bronze medalist Nancy who got the lions share of endorsements after Albertville and not Gold medalist Kristi. The media and US skating establishment went really hardcore for Nancy (remember it played a big role in Tonya's beef with the establishment and the eventual wack) who was considered the perfect All American girl compared to Kristi who was seen as too exotic.

Kristi had to wait a little longer to get the respect she deserved but is probably now considered one of the most iconic skating names in the US. And her Christmas ornament is currently hanging on my tree :D
 
Mariah has never tried, as far as I know, to adopt a "princess" image, and I've never heard her described as one before this. She's bubbly and joyful on the ice, but I don't consider that princessy. It seems to be an authentic expression of who she is, and I for one think it adds something special to skating.
 
Mariah is an emotive, expressive, and exquisite skater. Bradie is a technically great, beautiful, and powerful skater. Both, to me, offer very different styles because they have found their niche. I find that to be very refreshing. I think there is room to like both. The level of skating they bring is simply superb and had this been the early to mid 2010s, they would be nabbing medals left and right. It’s a testament to their character that despite not having quads or triple-Axels, they are pushing the envelope artistically and technically for the US ladies. Both, especially Bradie, are highly respected and I think that shows how far they’ve come in their careers. I personally enjoy Bradie more because her programs are SO chock full of transitions and her delivery is top-notch but I also appreciate Mariah’s ethereal, floaty skating that transports you on a journey of emotions.
 
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NAOTMAA said:
Yup it was Bronze medalist Nancy who got the lions share of endorsements after Albertville and not Gold medalist Kristi. The media and US skating establishment went really hardcore for Nancy (remember it played a big role in Tonya's beef with the establishment and the eventual wack) who was considered the perfect All American girl compared to Kristi who was seen as too exotic.

Kristi had to wait a little longer to get the respect she deserved but is probably now considered one of the most iconic skating names in the US. And her Christmas ornament is currently hanging on my tree :D
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Forget about Nancy..............but she also had that hammer thing going for her.

And it took Kristi longer because she is Asian. This was about marketing .
UGG said:
The ability to connect with the audience. I used Ashley as an example because prior to 2012 she didn’t have it. Bradie is like Rachel Flatt- reliable and talented but missing the star quality. She just doesn’t draw in an audience the way Mariah can. I completely disagree it has to do with looks, as you have so shallowly suggested. Bradie is just as pretty as Mariah.
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Comparing Bradie to Rachel flat should be illegal
 
What about Roz Sumners? USFS, marketing & media were soooo happy when she beat scrappy Zayak in 1982. Roz was “the Grace Kelly of the ice” (Dick Button)...not a hair out of place, glamorous make-up, even the perfectly clean white gloves during figures! Oh, dressing for figures was an entire subset of ladylike grooming rules. I remember when Katarina Witt defied the rules and did figures in a track suit.
 
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