U.S. Ladies [#29]: Skating with Adjusted Vision

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Frau Muller said:
Teeny Bopper quads & 3-axels don’t impress. Show them at age 16 before we go “Goo-goo gah-gah.”
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I look at it a lot differently than Frau. It's not really about going "gah gah" over these attempts, although I have to say this one seems pretty solid, as far as where it is in its development.

You have to respect the effort and the work that is happening day in and day out with these kids who know that, the way figure skating has been going, developing these jumps is a must if they want to be truly competitive for a spot on the podium at a high level international competition.

As someone else posted (I can't remember where I saw it), there's no proof yet what technique will be sustainable. I watched the other video of Mia's program posted above and it is clear she has been hard at work on improving all of her skating.

I respect and wish all of these little warriors the best and will be cheering them on as they, and their hopefully wise coaches, work on cracking the code!
 
Frau Muller said:
Teeny Bopper quads & 3-axels don’t impress. Show them at age 16 before we go “Goo-goo gah-gah.”
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I have a better idea - let's learn nothing from experience! lol.
melanieg said:
You have to respect the effort and the work that is happening day in and day out with these kids who know that, the way figure skating has been going, developing these jumps is a must if they want to be truly competitive for a spot on the podium at a high level international competition.
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I respect hard work and talent. But if she's 12 she isn't eligible for a high level international competition for 3 more years. (Juniors is fun to watch but unimportant ultimately.) The reason ladies don't often have repeat world champions (<3<3 Evgenia) is because maintaining the highest technical level is much harder than getting there. At a certain point there's nowhere to go but down.
Idk anything about Mia or her future. But there are reasonable fears, from many examples before her. The USFS might swoop down on her and label her the hope for the future, increasing the mental, emotional and financial pressure on her, she could be at great risk of injury or burn out, and since the jumps are unlikely (not impossible) to survive puberty, she could either develop an eating disorder to try and stop the process, or go through it with everyone watching and lose all skill and confidence before her senior career even starts.
 
Natanielle825 said:
I have a better idea - let's learn nothing from experience! lol.

I respect hard work and talent. But if she's 12 she isn't eligible for a high level international competition for 3 more years. (Juniors is fun to watch but unimportant ultimately.) The reason ladies don't often have repeat world champions (<3<3 Evgenia) is because maintaining the highest technical level is much harder than getting there. At a certain point there's nowhere to go but down.
Idk anything about Mia or her future. But there are reasonable fears, from many examples before her. The USFS might swoop down on her and label her the hope for the future, increasing the mental, emotional and financial pressure on her, she could be at great risk of injury or burn out, and since the jumps are unlikely (not impossible) to survive puberty, she could either develop an eating disorder to try and stop the process, or go through it with everyone watching and lose all skill and confidence before her senior career even starts.
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I agree those are all reasonable fears. Frau's comment rubbed me the wrong way because I perceived it as being dismissive of what some of these youngsters are trying to do — which is to grow into being a top world competitor but to be able to skate for a long time. Individual coaches and parents will be playing a big part in figuring out what the formula is for competitive longevity and staying healthy mentally and physically for the long term. Many won't take that part of it seriously, but hopefully more and more will. And time will tell if girls, quads AND health/longevity are (all three) possible.

I also completely agree with your point about USFS.
 
melanieg said:
I look at it a lot differently than Frau.

I respect and wish all of these little warriors the best and will be cheering them on as they, and their hopefully wise coaches, work on cracking the code!
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I'm just repeating my post and the posts of others. Health issues aside of course the very young can do these 3A/4 jumos if they want. And maybe it's good to succeed with them when you are younger. The objection is that the medals go to those who are not yet mature skaters. Most, don't keep the jump. If we're giving big score to these elements give them to those who are successful in maturity. That develops the athletic part of the sport. 4's by 12 year olds are like tiny Chinese acrobats - able to do these things based on a physical anomaly. That doesn't develop the sport except to show such things are possible.

Raise the age limit to 18.
 
SkateFanBerlin said:
The objection is that the medals go to those who are not yet mature skaters.
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And for me the problem is the second mark.. Anna and The Trusova should be scoring QUITE LOW for CH and IT.

When I watch Anna skate Im watching a young girl who doesnt make me feel anything (and thats fine, shes like 15) so judges should be reprimanded or even fired (hey Im a realist) for giving nonsensical scores.

I see we are in the US ladies thread so Ill cease now. lolz
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
And for me the problem is the second mark.. Anna and The Trusova should be scoring QUITE LOW for CH and IT.

When I watch Anna skate Im watching a young girl who doesnt make me feel anything (and thats fine, shes like 15) so judges should be reprimanded or even fired (hey Im a realist) for giving nonsensical scores.

I see we are in the US ladies thread so Ill cease now. lolz
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The same here, I do feel the same; I even do not want to watch. For me it is not a figure skating, some calculated hybrid of ice gymnastics under the disguise of figure skating.
 
SkateFanBerlin said:
The objection is that the medals go to those who are not yet mature skaters. Most, don't keep the jump. If we're giving big score to these elements give them to those who are successful in maturity.
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In future, more may keep the jumps, as techniques for training them among maturing girls develop. Just look at how the quads have evolved for men. The ladies field tends to stagnate in comparison to men's, but sooner or later a young lady omes along who seizes an opportunity to do an element not common to the field and thereby gain an advantage - assuming of course that this individual has the talent and motivation to do the element.
 
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I learned my lesson to not go “Goo goo, gah gah” over female teeny boppers back in 1981/82, with the Tracey Wainman - Elaine Zayak - Claudia Leistner generation. Show me the jumps at age 17. Marketers and media never learn, do they? Pump up the kids for ratings, then watch them drop to earth...even if some have comebacks...but not as the much-sought Olympics Gold Medalists.
 
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Considering everyone's opinions in this discussion, it looks to me like there are several "threads" of thought at issue:

1. Juniors represent the next generations of skating. Like those who came before and broke ground with triples, these young athletes are striving to do more and more. It is the nature of athletes to want to push limits, and it is how sports evolve. It IS possible to celebrate this without overhyping.

2. There IS too much hyping (and trashing) of juniors. Some are more athletic at at 11 - 13 or 14 y.o. and need many more years of instruction and practice to balance out their skating skills and artistry. Some are more artistic and will be fighting for the jumps for years to come. A very few — those who navigate the physical and mental demands in ways that work for them (and those whose families can survive financially) — ultimately develop great measure of both athleticism and artistry that a wide audience is compelled to watch.

3. We can all hope #2 above is possible with sound coaching and parenting along the way, but USFS's marketing machine is a nightmare.
 
Hypothetical question: When videos of young, up-and-coming skaters are uploaded to YouTube and/or social media platforms and posted (like Mia Kalin's "rehearsal" video) on fan forums like this one, what are the pros and cons for the skater?
 
Sylvia said:
Hypothetical question: When videos of young, up-and-coming skaters are uploaded to YouTube and/or social media platforms and posted (like Mia Kalin's "rehearsal" video) on fan forums like this one, what are the pros and cons for the skater?
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Pros:
Being a successful athlete today means building a brand to monetize the competitive success, and so exposure helps in that process. Nathan Chen, as an example, has had a lot of attention from a very early age, and he & his support team have managed the process & allowed him to be successful on and off the ice.

Cons:
It seems like there's so many potential cons it's hard to know where to start. Attention brings additional pressure & expectations. It might bring people into the skater's orbit that aren't there for the right reasons. Media attention means dealing with requests for the skater's time & energy that could impact training. Does the focus move from winning competitions to winning endorsement contracts, and that's not to say that some athletes can't build successful careers this way. Managing the attention & expectations seem like a delicate balance for the skater's support team, & not all skaters have that.
 
Frau Muller said:
I learned my lesson to not go “Goo goo, gah gah” over female teeny boppers back in 1981/82, with the Tracey Wainman - Elaine Zayak - Claudia Leistner generation. Show me the jumps at age 17. Marketers and media never learn, do they? Pump up the kids for ratings, then watch them drop to earth...even if some have comebacks...but not as the much-sought Olympics Gold Medalists.
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As far as Elaine Zayak is concerned, she didn't lose her jumps from a growth spurt. There were weight issues, nerves, and of course the implementation of the Zayak rule midway thru her career and a terrible injury in 1983 that affected her programs.
 
olympic said:
As far as Elaine Zayak is concerned, she didn't lose her jumps from a growth spurt. There were weight issues, nerves, and of course the implementation of the Zayak rule midway thru her career and a terrible injury in 1983 that affected her programs.
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Hmm...Puberty did bring on “roundness”...we fans gasped when we saw the “new Elaine” step out onto the practice ice at Pittsburgh Nationals. All contributed to her injury between Natls and Worlds (I was there too - Helsinki.) You can’t divorce weight issues from puberty. I’ve learned to not expect the champion teeny boppers to look and perform the way that they did when discovered. (Elaine developed other great qualities in the interim, such as fabulous spins & glide that we saw in ‘84.)
 
It's really shameful to see the unnecessary, disparaging, rude comments towards junior skaters. Senior skaters don't become senior skaters without being juniors first. And sometimes they don't make senior ranks for a whole variety of reasons, and their experiences as juniors (or other levels) is the pinnacle of their career. We should be celebrating all skaters for their achievements as they happen, whatever level they may be.
 
I have no pro/con list, but I am deeply uncomfortable when people share content from young girls that aren't officially on Team USA, especially when they are 12 years old. Perhaps it is worth creating a separate thread about US skaters in the development pipeline?
 
Just to clarify - Mia Kalin is not listed in USFS' International Selection Pool because she is not ISU Junior age-eligible, but she is in the Athlete High Performance Development Pool (names are not listed publicly) and USFS gave her the opportunity to experience her first international for Team USA last year, along with Isabeau Levito, in the Advanced Novice Girls event of the 2019 Asian Open Figure Skating Trophy in DongGuang CHN where she won the silver medal (behind China's talented young prospect Xiangyi AN): http://www.hksu.org/event/aofst2019/CAT005RS.HTM
 
Team USA bios are being updated in the Fan Zone and I believe this is the first time that International Selection Pool skaters, and not only team envelope athletes, are getting individual bios. For example, this is the bio for 14-year-old Clare Seo who was one of the later additions to the ISP this year: https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/sports/figure-skating/roster/clare-seo/437
I had not heard of her previously (I checked last season's U.S. Juvenile/Intermediate/Novice qualifying season results) and it turns out the reason is because she competed in Korea prior to this season and is, in fact, the 2020 Korean junior national ladies champion!

Clare's SP music is listed in her bio as "Rain in Your Black Eyes" by Ezio Bosso, choreographed last season by Anna Novichkina - here is a video of her performance to this music at KOR Junior Nationals in January 2020 (her Korean name is Heewon SEO):
www.youtube.com

서희원 Heewon SEO (Hee-Won) | SP-37. 2그룹 Jr. Ladies | 2020-01-03 피겨종합선수권 1일차 | 수원북중학교 1

캡쳐 및 재가공 금지 | Do Not Reupload & Secondary Process 74th KB Bank, Republic of Korea Figure Skating National Championships 2020 (South Korea National Championsh...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
I don’t think there is any really great benefit from hyping a junior skater as the next great thing. It didn’t help Caroline Zhang or Gracie Gold much. If you look at the Zhang/Flatt/Nagasu/Wagner junior era, Ashley was the least hyped of anyone yet turned out to have unarguably the most successful career of the 4 skaters, and I think the lack of hype and attention worked to her benefit.

I don’t think it would have been scandalous for Mariah Belle to have won nationals last year. Now Alysa Lui has so much pressure and she grew so much and can’t land triple jumps right now. I think it’s better to be under the radar so young and I really think 13 year olds should not be skating against 24 year olds. That’s just crazy.

There are skaters like Michelle and Sasha who were super hyped as juniors and able to able to transition without much trouble but it’s not like that under the current system it seems.

With the Russian ladies, it’s a new 15 year old every year with reigning Olympic And world champs being washed up at 18.

Sad.
 
I love to see the new up-and-comers but I think too much attention can end up being very harmful. I don't think it has to be at the national/international level either. At the local rink/section level, you see the movers and shakers in the sport fawn over a young skater who they perceive to have exceptional potential. I have seen coaches maneuver behind the scenes to position themselves closer to the skater or even the parents, taking pictures with them, etc. They are the "next one" to quote Rod Black. Some of it would be heady stuff even for an adult - never mind a child. I have also seen those same children be dropped like a stone when they struggle during puberty or injury. It must only be so much worse on the world stage. My heart goes out to Alysa Liu. No matter what her future is as a figure skater, I hope she has the kind of people around her who value her for who she is. I guess a skater who comes to mind is Cynthia Phaneuf who won Canadians in 2004 then again in 2011. A beautiful girl, she grew tall for a figure skater and lost all her jumps. She had the perseverance to keep fighting but a lot of credit has to go to her coaching staff (Annie Barabe and team) who must have been something special. Cynthia has a life after skating that seems fulfilling to her and that is so important.
 
When they do achieve great things at a young age, they should be respected and rewarded for that achievement, not for possible future achievements that can only happen when they're old enough.

That said, I do wonder about the wisdom of competing seniors at us Nationals when you're too young for even the Junior Grand Prix.

Speaking of Phaneuf...
youtu.be

Cynthia Phaneuf CAN - 2004 Four Continents LP

SP : 8th, LP : 1st, silver medal Jan. 19th-25th, Hamilton, CAN
youtu.be youtu.be
 
I'm happy to see when young athletes do well. There is no way of knowing if they will do well in the future. There is no need to hype people up. But I can appreciate when athletes do something special no matter what age they are.

Alysa is the first U.S. lady to land a quad lutz. She had an absolutely beautiful LP last season. She will inspire others and is now dealing with adolescence, which happens to the best of us. Many less known athletes have hit the same obstacle. It's something that happens to you regardless of whether you've been in the spotlight or not.

Back in 2005, I saw Mallory & Holdburg skate an absolutely gorgeous FD to Scheherazade. Nine years later, I saw their former fellow competitors win an Olympic gold medal with the same music.

Think about all the experience that other athletes gain because of successful junior athletes that earn berths on the JGP. Think of the motivation other athletes gain because of those successful young novices or juniors or intermediates who train in the same rinks or compete at the same Nationals.

Good for Mia. Good for Alysa and Nathan and Rachel and Karen and Vincent and Evan B. and the Shibs and Ting and all the other young successful athletes that may or may not be successful senior competitors.
 
Coco said:
When they do achieve great things at a young age, they should be respected and rewarded for that achievement, not for possible future achievements that can only happen when they're old enough.
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I don't think anyone is waiting to reward kids. However, we have yet to see if they can keep those amazing jumps through puberty and without injury. Are there any current skaters over the age of 17 who are landing quads?
Coco said:
That said, I do wonder about the wisdom of competing seniors at us Nationals when you're too young for even the Junior Grand Prix.

Speaking of Phaneuf...
youtu.be

Cynthia Phaneuf CAN - 2004 Four Continents LP

SP : 8th, LP : 1st, silver medal Jan. 19th-25th, Hamilton, CAN
youtu.be youtu.be
Click to expand...
Isn't this counter to your first point? If they should be acknowledged and rewarded.......wouldn't part of that include competing as a Senior at US Nats?

I suspect we are in the middle of a huge transition. After Kurt Browning landed those first quads people assumed the quad era had arrived. Not so. It took a number 's of years before the men's accepted that they had to have a quad to win.

I think that will happen with the ladies. Where PCS could normalize a quad in the scoring, that is less and less true. Personally I would rather watch a beautiful skate than a race to get across the ice and put in another quad.
 
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