U.S. Ladies [#23]: Triple Axels? What a Novice Idea!

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Willin said:
Ultimately I feel bad for Beverly Zhu. Maybe this was her choice, but given her age I'd bet her parents had a lot more of a say in it than she herself did. Either way if she does end up beating US Ladies or even being an Olympic medal threat in 2022 she'll be vilified by skating fans and insulted heavily. Heck, I'd bet she's already getting some nasty comments on social media.
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Well I hope that whatever happens, people here will be above insulting a young girl. I doubt skating fans will insult her, most do know that this sport is a huge investment and she wouldn't be the first to be competing for another country. Maybe there will be 4 year fans in 2022 who will be unhappy but Chinese fans are very supportive of her right now, they already found her instagram.

Either way I think the citizenship issue needs to be solved first, if both her parents were US Citizens already when she was born I think that complicates things. But since the switch is confirmed I guess there may be a path of some sort.
 
I don't blame any girl for considering switching away from skating for the US, Canada, Japan, Korea and Russia for some guaranteed training resources ($$$), guaranteed trips to GPs, 4CCs and very good odds to Worlds / Olympics. She obviously has an ethnic connection to China so why not.

For perspective, Li Xiangning skated at the PC Olympics but not Ashley Wagner and Wakaba Higuchi.

I am sure China will try and find a few more and send the best one to BJ 2022 and fight for that team medal. So perhaps it isn't that guaranteed that she would skate at BJ OLympics, but she is still going to get much better chances at internationals, GPs and 4CCs than the average American lady I think.
 
I don't think anyone is blaming Zhu for switching. I am blaming the USFS. We need to keep our quality skaters. We are dropping the ball in ladies and pairs. Pairs gets hardly any funding but we expect them to be World medalists? It's a greater problem for a different thread, but losing our Novice Champ is a blow even if she turns out to be nothing spectacular. We shouldn't be losing athletes in an already depleted field.
 
What can the USFS do though? Whatever funding it can give, the Chinese Fed can probably match. It's just a matter of odds. How likely is she going to skate at Worlds and Olympics if she skates for the US or for China?

Unless the USFS can give an assurance (which it shouldn't), there is nothing it can do to tip the scale in its favour. The field is simply too deep as it is in the US and better/more established skaters aren't even getting enough opportunities for competitions, let alone her or others in her circumstances.

Having said that, I don't know if USFS even tried to keep her, they better did.
 
Why should USFS try to keep her? There are plenty at her level of talent who are currently placing 6-8 at jgp. Last I saw there are many foreign non-citizen skaters skating for the US, Kransnozhon et al. Can you say USFS "poached" him?Honestly if the Chinese fed is serious about poaching they could probably do better than her. The Koreans got themselves an all-American ice dance team.

The current sad state of US skating is a result of certain cultural trends. Eteri probably can't last a day in a US rink.
 
analia said:
Why should USFS try to keep her? <snip>
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Talk about trolling... best to ignore.

binbinwinwin said:
Well I hope that whatever happens, people here will be above insulting a young girl. I doubt skating fans will insult her, most do know that this sport is a huge investment and she wouldn't be the first to be competing for another country. Maybe there will be 4 year fans in 2022 who will be unhappy but Chinese fans are very supportive of her right now
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That's good to hear, thanks!
 
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I will miss Zhu skating for the U.S. I thought she was great and could have made an impact here, but it will be nice to still see her compete. I'm not thrilled with the way this happened. It's not sporting of China to approach other countries' citizens and give them a better deal. OTOH, it's not sporting to keep out many of the best athletes from the top events just because they happen to be from the same country. You can see why skaters switch countries to improve their opportunities. And the country-switching goes both ways. Sure, Zhu, Paganini, Rajicova, etc. have left, but the U.S. has also acquired great skaters like Krasnozhon, Kolesnik, Carreria, etc. And plenty of skaters who would be able to skate for other countries choose to fight it out in the U.S., e.g., Cain, Baker, etc.

I wouldn't want USFS to stop lower-level skaters from leaving. These athletes aren't employees--they don't owe USFS anything. Their parents have financed their entire skating careers. Even at the higher levels, whatever support they get from USFS is a drop in the bucket compared to what their families have paid. When USFS has blocked skaters, it is after they've competed internationally. I wonder if the new novice U.S.-Canadian series will count for that in USFS's official policy? That would be a way to assert control over novices; not that I hope USFS does. Let the skaters skate.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
At this moment Im quite glad to see a USA lady who is doing 3lutzes/3loops and may have stiff arms etc versus another skater who may have more style yet arrives with a full basket of carrots. lol

Its quite a nice change if you ask me.

Go Bradie!!!! :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

She can be stiff until the cows come home, no other skater is beating Medev!
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To be fair, her basket at ACI wasn't full of carrots but there were a couple in there...:p

My point is Bradie's problem areas are noticeable but it's clear she's working on them. I'm not the biggest fan of her skating and I may not ever be, but I'm just glad the US has a skater who is showing up. She has that fearlessness and grit that has been missing from our top ladies recently. It's refreshing and hopefully it's a sign of things to come.

Re: Beverly switching to China, I understand. If you are given an opportunity to better yourself and your career, why would she not take it? She's only novice level so it's not like the USFS has done anything major for her at this point. Like someone else said, she owes them nothing. If that's the path she wants to travel then I say go for it. I'll gladly cheer her on should she develop into a top level skater.

I wish her the best of luck!
 
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Cleo1782 said:
Again I get that, but she is not just a lower tier skater at Nationals. She won Novice. I feel like the USFS should have stepped in to develop her and not let her just country hop. If Zhu wanted to skate for China perhaps she should have done so to begin with and not competed at the US system for so long. Country hopping sours me on skaters in most cases. I think she could have been competitive on the US level but she chose another country with a contract. Whatever I don't know her family circumstances and what not.
I am sure Canada is glad we gave them Piper Gilles, Keegan Messing, and Kaitlyn Weaver too.;)
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On another thread, correct me if I read it wrong, the USFSA issued a huge bulletin about the new training camps and I believe it decided to eliminate Novice nationals to prevent foreign countries from recruiting its skaters. It explicitly said this in the bulletin. Someone else can chime in if I am mistaken about the level. I think it was novice.
 
I am all for country switching. It deepens the field internationally which is a good thing. I'm hoping that all these Russian girls find a way via country switching to end up having a successful competitive career. Whatever it takes. I didn't see any YT of Beverly posted here, so here is her from earlier this year. She seems well coached, nothing stands out as trouble or problems, just a nice solid skater with an excellent base to build upon. Good for her for making this move!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NYAOoY_p4-M
 
Cleo1782 said:
Zhu was born in LA. Not really disagreeing with any of your points. You have a solid argument with facts. My problem is with USFS and the fact they didn't really try to stop this or if they did not effectively. Couldn't they have named her to the ISP and then blocked her from country hopping? Anyway, it's not a huge deal right now but it what if she is a Nathan Chen sorta of star? The USFS just let her slip through their fingers.
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USFS can stop skaters from leaving when it assumes ALL financial responsibility for a skaters' development from Learn to Skate on. For higher level skaters, it can settle on a buy out like the German federation had for Bruno Massot. Skaters invest a lot of money in their training and they are not slaves. I find that competing for countries is kind of stupid and not at all in line with how other professional sports operate or how the world operates. Why should the USFS prevent a skater from having an international competitive career when the most likely outcome is that a skater not near the top will probably languish in domestic qualifying competitions.
 
Seerek said:
Do you mean in terms of Beverly's citizenship?

What I do know is Beverly Zhu was born in the US, as her father, reknown mathematics (statistics) and artificial intelligence professor at UCLA, Song-chun Zhu, had just started his tenure at UCLA before Beverly was born.
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The Chinese Fed must be offering big $$$ to the family for them to make the switch.
 
Rafter said:
The Chinese Fed must be offering big $$$ to the family for them to make the switch.
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WillyElliot said:
I am all for country switching. It deepens the field internationally which is a good thing.
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... except there is one important issue. Figure Skating is not like pro-tennis or golf or ball games with private teams.

There are a Flag and an Anthem involved.

Raising the Flag and playing the Anthem, and an athlete singing it on the podium, is to symbolize and to reward "That Country's Accomplishment". By Flag and Anthem, a Country takes credit for "creating something" that earned the highest reward - Made in USA, Made in China, Made in Russia/Japan/Canada, etc..

"Creating something" is not the same as "Buying something". If there is a artist/painting competition, one must submit a painting/sculpture one created, and not a piece of work one hired to create or bought.

Take away Anthem and Flag, and then yes, all is fair in love and war.... But the Anthem and Flag are there for now.. so there.
 
American-born figure skater joins Chinese squad with one eye on Beijing 2022

https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...ns-chinese-squad-with-one-eye-on-beijing-2022

The sixteen-year-old was born in Los Angeles but will now train with five Chinese athletes, according to Xinhua.

Reports say she will be based at two venues in the United States and one in Beijing.

Zhu won the ladies title in the novice division at the 2018 US Figure Skating Championships in San Jose.
 
^^^ That article is based on the Chinese article in English that I posted in the Chinese news thread yesterday: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...d-to-beijing-2022.100886/page-14#post-5418597

Mariah Bell makes her season debut and Ashley Lin her senior international debut at Nebelhorn Trophy tomorrow; Ting Cui will compete in her second JGP (third overall) in Ostrava - here's hoping they all skate well!
 
Tinami Amori said:
Raising the Flag and playing the Anthem, and an athlete singing it on the podium, is to symbolize and to reward "That Country's Accomplishment". By Flag and Anthem, a Country takes credit for "creating something" that earned the highest reward - Made in USA, Made in China, Made in Russia/Japan/Canada, etc..
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The world is very multi-cultural now. And even if she identifies herself as more US than Chinese, it is one of those trade-offs that she had to consider - do I represent the US proudly and max out skating internationally at JGPs due to depth of field, or do I represent China less proudly but get a fair shot to fight for an Olympic team medal in front of a home crowd?
 
Marco said:
The world is very multi-cultural now. And even if she identifies herself as more US than Chinese, it is one of those trade-offs that she had to consider - do I represent the US proudly and max out skating internationally at JGPs due to depth of field, or do I represent China less proudly but get a fair shot to fight for an Olympic team medal in front of a home crowd?
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I think it's a legitimate question for skater individually. I'm just mad that China is no benefiting from US changing their scoring system to produce better skaters. It would've been unheard of for a novice champ landing triple triples in novices just a few years ago. Now that the bonus system is producing good skaters, other countries can entice young skaters to leave, convincing them they the US will never send them to the Olympics. Mean while we have to produce even more skaters to fill in the gap.

China clearly made their own beds years ago when they decided to prioritize pairs over other disciplines. Now they have to resort to such underhanded means to get strong lady and dance competitors ready in less than four years. Sadly, the US isn't in a financial position to stop them right now.

However, I would've thought USFS and USOC saw the disaster of PC and decided to focus on providing more money to fund skaters.
 
@Frida80, I've been hearing anecdotal evidence that USFS has been "providing more money to fund [young] skaters" (remember that Alysa Liu, Pooja Kalyan, Ting Cui and Hanna Harrell were invited to Champs Camp as part of the "Emerging Athletes" program). I believe USFS needs to "spread the wealth around" when it comes to supporting the younger skaters/next generation of U.S. ladies, and my hope is that they continue to invest in as many as possible rather than just one or two.
 
Sylvia said:
@Frida80, I've been hearing anecdotal evidence that USFS has been "providing more money to fund [young] skaters" (remember that Alysa Liu, Pooja Kalyan, Ting Cui and Hanna Harrell were invited to Champs Camp as part of the "Emerging Athletes" program). I believe USFS needs to "spread the wealth around" when it comes to supporting the younger skaters/next generation of U.S. ladies, and my hope is that they continue to invest in as many as possible rather than just one or two.
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Well I trust your sources. I do believe that USFS plans on spreading the wealth more. But I still worry that won't be enough. These aren't the lucrative days of the past. Sponsor just don't want to be involve if there's no pay off. I do have some ideas show sponsors can fund more skaters and recoup their money faster. But there's no one to hear these ideas, so what's the point of voicing them.
 
Frida80 said:
Mean while we have to produce even more skaters to fill in the gap.
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Who is the "we" you are referring to? Even with team envelope funding, skaters (their parents) still foot most of the costs of training. There is no national sports program in the US. Some sports have better infrastructures than others. Swimmers and gymnasts have the YMCA and team format (which doesn't cost near what it costs for skating) to develop talent. Track and field and other sports have competitive high school divisions.
 
What Zhu is doing is not anything new, but the optics are not pretty, given the current political climate and the countries involved. I could just imagine what 45 would tweet if someone put that article in front of him.

TBH, if a Chinese skater switched to the US, they'd be welcomed with open arms in the US and people in China would be unhappy. Heck, remember Tanith Belbin switching to the US? and that was from Canada! People will always be unhappy.
 
Frida80 said:
Well I trust your sources. I do believe that USFS plans on spreading the wealth more. But I still worry that won't be enough. These aren't the lucrative days of the past.
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But even in "the lucrative days of the past" novice skaters weren't getting funding from USFSA, aside from a few who might have gotten into the lowest team envelop or gotten need-based aid from the Memorial Fund. Whatever those few would have gotten would have been a drop in the bucket though.
 
Also congrats to Ting on her SP at JGP Ostrava! Beautiful skating and another 70+ score. She's in 2nd place, only 0.04 behind Kostornaia who waxeled her axel. Of all of the juniors Ting is the one I'm paying the most attention to. Great jumps, wonderful skating skills and she performs very well too. IIRC she's competing senior at nationals this year. If she nails those jumps she could definitely make it to the top 3.

Best of luck in the FS!
US women off to a good start today! :40beers:
 
It's crazy to think that we have three US ladies around that 70 point SP mark this year before the GP season. I'm trying not to get too hyped by that, but it's hard not to.

I haven't gotten a chance to watch Mariah's SP yet, but one wonders if having Ashley and Adam gone from Raf's training center is helping her. Raf's obviously gotten new students since they left, but now Mariah's closer to the top priority for him so she's probably getting a lot more attention. I hope she can keep from making stupid mistakes on jumps - she has everything else.


@Rafter They fund 100% of training costs, so yeah, that's a lot of money. With dresses and travel added in, probably north of six figures every year.

I think my point isn't that it's wrong for a skater to switch countries if they want to or need to for whatever reason (I totally get the funding thing because the cost of elite skating is insane), but rather that the Chinese fed shouldn't be actively reaching out to skaters and recruiting them.
 
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