U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

[aftershocks]

...

It's nice only when "loudness and insistence" are not "louder" than one's results....

Hmmm, you're rather loud and insistent with questionable results yourself, for whatever reason.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Hmmm, you're rather loud and insistent yourself, for whatever reason.

The purpose of chats is to talk. The purpose of skating is to skate.

 

[kwanatic]

No such comment was made.
I said a) it is my gut feeling. b) it may have partially affected...

That still absolves Bradie, Mirai and Karen, even partially, of the way they skated. Placing blame on another skater (who isn't even in the event) is not a good way to excuse a performance...if by chance your gut feeling is correct.

It's nice only when "loudness and insistence" are not "louder" than one's actions and results where it counts....

Her actions were plain as day for everyone to see. Both had similar mistakes but Ashley out-skated Karen at nationals. Karen was held up; Ashley wasn't. This was a case where Ashley's actions (i.e. her performances) did backup her claims.

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t believe Ashley outskated Karen at Nationals, so I think that is a fact in dispute.

 

[kwanatic]

So I am wondering how this happens? How exactly does the “US fed” orchestrate all of this with the judges. I have no doubt that judges have favourites, or at least favourite styles, but for there to be an organized effort seems very implausible. It also seems a bit like revisionist history. If I remember correctly Ashley popped her last jumping pass in 2017 and that is what put her behind Karen. I also don’t remember her seeming terrible upset. I did wonder at the time if she subconsciously didn’t want to go to Worlds as the US Champion and preferred a more underdog role. She certainly didn’t complain about her placement at least to my knowledge. Anyway, it just seems a bit much to suddenly start a conspiracy theory about the “US fed” having some master plan way back before 2017 Nationals.

Not so much. It's a known fact that judges sit in on practices for skaters and even "pre-score" skaters based off of their practices. With the US women being in a slump and the Olympics around the corner, I don't doubt there was some extra chatter about what to do in the case of it being a close race between Karen and Ashley in the FS in 2017. I wouldn't be surprised if the conversation was "if Karen skates mostly clean, she'll go into the lead." They saw Karen's potential and with Ashley struggling all 2016-2017 season, they were looking to push someone else. The margin of victory was small b/w the two of them that year...small enough that if they'd wanted Ashley to beat Karen, it'd have been easy to give her a boost to put her 1st overall.

The judges know how to manipulate scores and position skaters. Look at Bradie. Bradie skated well at nationals this year, true...but the scores she received were NOTHING like what she received internationally. After SA the discussion was likely if Bradie delivers, place her first. She delivered and they boosted her scores with lots of GOE and higher than deserved PCS.

I honestly feel like the only way Ashley would have made it on the team this year was if she skated damn near perfectly. She gave standard Ashley performances and that was all the ammo they needed to drop her.

 

[aftershocks]

So I am wondering how this happens? How exactly does the “US fed” orchestrate all of this with the judges. I have no doubt that judges have favourites, or at least favourite styles, but for there to be an organized effort seems very implausible. It also seems a bit like revisionist history. If I remember correctly Ashley popped her last jumping pass and that is what put her behind Karen. I also don’t remember her seeming terrible upset. I did wonder at the time if she subconsciously didn’t want to go to Worlds as the US Champion and preferred a more underdog role. She certainly didn’t complain about her placement at least to my knowledge. Anyway, it just seems a bit much to suddenly start a conspiracy theory about the “US fed” having some master plan way back before 2017 Nationals.

Everyone can see it as they choose. It's quite obvious to me, and I've watched this sport for too many years to count. Favoritisim does not have to be 'organized,' and the scoring system allows for a lot of individual manipulation. US fed is made up of many members, some of whom differ from status quo consensus, of course. Still, we all know it's a political sport and there's always behind-the-scenes buzz and factions within each federation that can hold sway, even despite the independent volunteer judges making their separate decisions. The sport is full of politics and consensus. What the skaters do on the ice plays a major, important role, but it's not the only factor in the scoring either domestically or internationally.

It isn't revisionist history on my part re 2017 US Nats. It's how I saw it at the time, and how I still see it. In regard to 2018, Karen did not skate clean in either program at US Nats. In the sp, Angela Wang should have been in third over Karen if the judging was being judged on the actual performances alone. Karen made a similar mistake to Ashley in the sp, but Karen got the nod in front of Angela. And the veteran Ashley, who is the only US women to reach the Worlds podium in 12 years to date, well they just had to keep Ash in fourth. How would it have looked to place both Ash and Karen over the clean and lovely sp performance by Angela!

Of course, not being a consistent and well-regarded contender, Angela was seen as expendable in any case. The same thing happened to Grant in the sp, with his perfect performance coming in 4th behind Jason who had a couple of miscues. Then of course, Angela and Grant tanked in their fps. But for some strange reason, so did Jason. Ashley held her own (despite the issues on her second 3/3 jump pass). Karen had issues as well and she was not spectacular. But again, everyone can see it as they choose, as they will.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Both had similar mistakes but Ashley out-skated Karen at nationals.

SP KC – 3rd
SP AW – 5th

FS – KC – 4th FS/3rd overall
FS – AW – 3rd FS/4th overall

 

[Dobre]

Ashley skated one club event, one and a half international competitions, and one Nationals this year.

She didn't do anything to indicate that she would place better than the ladies the U.S. sent to the Olympics. Her SB is now lower than all three ladies who went. She might have competed better, but she still wouldn't have medaled and she still probably wouldn't have gone to Worlds.

We would likely have the same team headed to Italy that we have right now.

I do not buy the argument that Ashley deserved higher PCS. What about Ashley's skating deserves higher PCS than Karen's? Karen makes mistakes. This is true. Karen is inconsistent. This is true. But those are arguments for Body of Work, and Karen didn't lose that argument to Ashley. Was it a judgment call? Sure. Was it a homefield audience? Yep. But, sheesh, Ashley had plenty of advantages herself. It was a close call, and Karen won it.

 

[kwanatic]

I don’t believe Ashley outskated Karen at Nationals, so I think that is a fact in dispute.

True. Still, Karen landed 3 clean triples in her FS to Ashley's 5, and still scored nearly 130 points. She landed 4 triples in Pyeongchang and didn't crack 120... Outskated or no, she was definitely held up.

I wonder what the general feeling is from the USFSA with their decision to push Karen right now? I wonder if they're a little miffed at her for passing on worlds...

 

[kwanatic]

SP KC – 3rd
SP AW – 5th

FS – KC – 4th FS/3rd overall
FS – AW – 3rd FS/4th overall

Yeah, going by placements says nothing about what mistakes were made. The argument here is about the scoring discrepancies b/w the two of them so going by their placement/score isn't illustrating your point...

 

[Willin]

@kwanatic I think the thing with Karen is that she has the potential to be great. In another thread, @Per said she's been doing some great runthroughs in practice. I don't think anyone can deny that when she hits every jump cleanly and performs all out that she can be a top skater. That's why I don't think USFSA is wrong to think Karen could be the future. With consistency she could easily be a threat for the podium at any competition. Heck, she got 4th at Worlds last year.

That's not to say it isn't a gamble to put her on any team. I'm sure USFSA knows that. She's not consistent at all, and who knows what the problems are: the boots, the jump technique, confidence, etc. have all been theorized. That's what I'm concerned about - the fact that there's a problem causing her to be inconsistent and yet it appears something's not quite clicking yet. Not to say it can't click in the future.

I think the thing she needs most is an environment where her confidence can grow. I wonder if she might need to move to Raf or Tom Z not because she necessarily needs their help (maybe with jump technique) but rather because I think she needs a challenge every day. If she can see that her big competitors also have struggles or that she can "beat" them in practice, maybe she'll gain the confidence she needs to get past struggles and feel ready for any competition despite any practice struggles.

 

[aftershocks]

... If everybody did that then we would not have sports chats like FSU.... and you might have to take up piano to keep your fingers busy.

Actually when 'gut feelings' are actually trollish bias and OTT imaginings, I think it's a good thing to keep such feelings to oneself. In fact commenting on what you think based on what you've seen on the ice, read, and heard in interviews might lead to more constructive conversation rather than useless digressions.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Yeah, going by placements says nothing about what mistakes were made. The argument here is about the scoring discrepancies b/w the two of them so going by their placement/score isn't illustrating your point...

In SP the judges did not intentionally try to put AW behind KC. Another girl was in between. In FS the judges did put AW ahead of Chen, not behind. The total scores put KC ahead.

Also, even if Judges, let's say, underscored AW, the Selection Panel had an option to send Wagner instead of Chen, but they did not do so either. Maybe they were concerned that Wagner, yet again, opens her big mouth in Korea and insults Int'l Judges, Skaters, and worst yet, causes an international conflict of some sort, which she manages to do constantly, even when not attending events. Wagner has two problems:
- mistaking "freedom of speech" for rudeness, coarseness, and loudness.
- behaving, on the ice and off the ice, like a 3rd rate saloon singer who thinks she is Barbara Streisand.

Actually when 'gut feelings' are actually trollish bias and OTT imaginings, I think it's a good thing to keep such feelings to oneself. In fact commenting on what you think based on what you've seen on the ice, read, and heard in interviews might lead to more constructive conversation rather than useless digressions.

Well, my trollish bias has some positives... it got your post down to 3 lines in 1 paragraph...

 

[skateboy]

- behaving, on the ice and off the ice, like a 3rd rate saloon singer who thinks she is Barbara Streisand

I LOVE this line! (And may have to steal it from time to time with my friends.)

 

[lola10]

I wonder what the general feeling is from the USFSA with their decision to push Karen right now? I wonder if they're a little miffed at her for passing on worlds...

It depends on how she communicated the reason to the USFSA. If she explained herself well and gave valid reasons than she should be fine.

Pulling out of worlds might be the best decision under the circumstances. There was way to much drama surrounding her post-Olympics and her whole season, except for Nationals, was very underwhelming. Taking some extra time to put the season into perspective and sort everything out before SOI is probably what Karen Chen needs to get a clean slate for the next season. She needs to take the right measures now to get up there once again, even if it means leaving sunny California for a coaching change.

I still think Chen is the most well-rounded skated in the U.S. ladies field which is obviously debatable. She has the technical content and the artistry. However, she really needs to get her nerves under control and gain that consistency in her skating.

With the slump in the women's field right now, the USFSA might take a good look at their skaters during the off-season and fall to decide who to push come Nationals, 4CC and Worlds 2019. It does not seem they have a favourite right now unless one of the ladies is skating lights out at Worlds getting into the top skaters.

 

[kwanatic]

In SP the judges did not intentionally try to put AW behind KC. Another girl was in between. In FS the judges did put AW ahead of Chen, not behind. The total scores put KC ahead.

Completely missed the point.

Also, even if Judges, let's say, underscored AW, the Selection Panel had an option to send Wagner instead of Chen, but they did not do so either. Maybe they were concerned that Wagner, yet again, opens her big mouth in Korea and insults Int'l Judges, Skaters, and worst yet, causes an international conflict of some sort, which she manages to do constantly, even when not attending events. Wagner has two problems:
- mistaking "freedom of speech" for rudeness, coarseness, and loudness.
- behaving, on the ice and off the ice, like a 3rd rate saloon singer who thinks she is Barbara Streisand.

Alright, well this 100% confirms the discussion/debate I was attempting to have with you is utterly futile as you're not interested in comparing arguments but rather just dislike Ashley and are looking for an excuse to bash her.

In light of that fact, I'm done having this conversation with you.

 

[aftershocks]

In SP the judges did not intentionally try to put AW behind KC. Another girl was in between...

Oh bosh @Tinami Amori! There was definitely 'intention' behind how each individual judge scored each skater. Both Karen and Jason were favored in the sp with mistakes over skaters with clean performances.

@VIETgrlTerifa, I don't see where anyone said that Ashley outskated Karen either in 2017 or in 2018. But neither was it vice versa. I agree with @kwanatic's articulate posts. In 2017 @mag, Ashley skated well, and she was fierce in the fp. Ash got through all of her jumping passes very well, particularly both 3/3 jumping passes. She completed her last triple and then it was as if she forgot that she'd planned to tack on a double jump. She landed the triple and then started to skate on and then turned into a single jump. Maybe she was excited about her performance or something and forgot about adding the double. And when she remembered it was too late. In any case, she'd certainly done enough jumps to have a high score. I've always contended that the choice could have gone either way. Some have argued that Karen URed some of her jumping passes in the 2017 fp, but they weren't called. If it had been an in-shape Gracie who'd skated as well as Ashley with singling a double at the tail end of her fp, they would surely have gone with Gracie over Karen (and that's not based on any 'gut' feeling either ).

With the choice between Ashley and Karen at 2017 US Nats, the judges went with the suddenly rejuvenated 'new kid on the block' who had otherwise done nothing all season long. I agree that Karen has remarkable skills @Willin, but so far she's only shown flashes of brilliance. It's too bad about her boot issues which may have contributed to her self-doubt and competitive nerves. Still, there's only so much holding up that can be done. It comes down to deciding what you want and going for it, and taking advantage of opportunities that aren't always going to be available.

 

[Elisheba]

- behaving, on the ice and off the ice, like a 3rd rate saloon singer who thinks she is Barbara Streisand.

#lifegoals

 

[aftershocks]

I'm a fan of Ashley's strength, resilience, honesty and pulling herself up by her own bootstraps. As far as being in love with any specific ladies figure skater these days, I'm not. I look at them all objectively and tell it like I see it. Right now, I'm more blown away by pairs and ice dance athletes and some of the men are interesting. The ladies I just watch out of habit. I'm glad Carolina Kostner stuck around long enough to become an artist. Arguably, a case could be made for Carolina winning the Olympics in 2014, just as a case could be made for Kaetlyn Osmond winning the Olympics in 2018 (if not for Eteri-unleashed Zagmeds fever). When they're on, I enjoy Gabby, Kaetlyn, Wakaba, Mihara, Turskaya. Satoko Miyahara is a gem who I'd love to see doing traditional Japanese dance instead of watching her magical hummingbird jumps. Amber Glenn is a shining beauty who has not managed to take the next step of believing in herself. Mariah Bell has to find a killer instinct and some self-belief too. Perhaps Bradie Tennell and Starr Andrews have potential to take the next step of truly believing in themselves and laying down the goods when it counts. We shall see. As far as Karen, we'll see if she's able to truly work things out with her boots, and her competitive psyche.

The whole Russian ladies phenomenon is intriguing, but also kind of sad somehow. I'm detached because with all of them, there's something that's still missing. Maybe Alina can continue to develop and actually learn how to hold out her moves and express the music, but why would she remain motivated when the going gets rough after winning it all in her senior debut? I don't see Trusova continuing to land quads before her body that isn't fully grown yet, completely breaks down. But carry on crazy sport of figure skating.

ETA:
I was secretly hoping Mirai Nagasu would slam dunk in the singles event after her amazing skate in the team event. But well, Mirai has given us some thrills and some chills in her career. So I guess, I'll just be happy with the fact Mirai never gave up, and she's now the first U.S. lady to land a 3-axel at the Olympics. I'll always remember the scream I let out when she landed it, and the way Canadian Meagan Duhamel and the entire U.S. team jumped to their feet arms aloft and clapping. YAASSS Mirai!

Dust hasn't settled yet you guys... It's early days yet with what's going to happen post-2018 Olympics. I'm kind of jaded for Milan Worlds. I'm unlikely to watch in real time.

 

[shady82]

Based on the posts here, I find myself sitting in between regarding this Karen vs. Ashley debate.

On one hand, it's been blatantly obvious that since last season, the USFSA has been aggressively promoting Karen despite little supporting evidence to do so other than 'potential', and at the same time dropping their promotion of Ashley:
- At 2017 Nationals, Karen was given a huge boost in scores despite NO record of strong international competitions or breakthrough. Ashley skated very well in the long program and considering she had been one of two top skaters in the country in previous years, you'd think she might come out on top, but she didn't.
- At 2017 Worlds, Karen was again given big scores despite still not having a strong international competition (she just had a subpar outing at 4CCs). Ashley was placed behind not only her in the SP, but also Sotskova. In the long, people talk much of how Ashley 'bombed', and even Ashley herself commended Karen for getting the US three spots. But her long, though not her best, was hardly a disaster. Karen's LP was also not as strong as her 4th place may have indicated.
- At 2017 Skate Canada, the judges dropped Ashley like a stone in the SP.
- Ashley's PCS domestically are visibly much lower than previously.
I don't think Karen's skating has progressed at all this year. She is a natural performer but needs to just do a bit more. Her jumps also need work, of course, to get rotations more pristine.

On the other hand, Ashley is not as strong a skater as she was in 2014-16. She lacks the same level of speed, jump quality, and performance factor. Her outings during the past season are not up-to-the-mark and at Nationals, it was clear that Bradie, Mirai, and Karen all outskated her. Ashley receiving lower PCS than Karen was questionable, but not necessarily wrong. With that said, if Ashley finished ahead of Karen, it wouldn't have been controversial either, their skating level was quite close.

Looking forward, I suggest that the USFSA put more effort into supporting Ting Cui and Starr Andrews, while continuing to promote Bradie and Karen. Mariah Bell has taken noticeable strides with Raf, despite so much poster comments saying she hasn't made any progress in consistency. But with the VERY lopsided talent distribution in ladies skating towards Russia and Japan (and now Korea to some extent), the U.S. will have trouble holding up in Grand Prix events in the next year or so.

 

[kwanatic]

Nice post @aftershocks though I did say Ashley outskated Karen this year Though I do contend that is open for debate. I was going more by of an"on paper" approach. On the technical side of things, Ashley came out on top. I also thought her performance was gorgeous; combining the two, I felt Ashley was stronger. I thought Karen's performance was good but she was very weak technically. For that reason, I felt Ashley outskated Karen this year. 2017 wasn't a matter of who outskated whom, but rather who the judges wanted on top. If they wanted Ashley to win that year, they could have made it happen but they didn't...

It depends on how she communicated the reason to the USFSA. If she explained herself well and gave valid reasons than she should be fine.

The assumption is it was likely boot issues if that whole Instagram/Avanta craziness is any indication. I feel like if it were for some other reason they'd have announced it. Citing boot problems for the 12th time this season may not go over too well at this point which may be why no reason has been given (to my knowledge).

I wonder if it'd be a stretch for the federation to step in and possibly help Karen find some boots that work for her? ITA about Karen being the best skater in the US field. IMO, when she's on she is amazing. She's fast, strong SS, strong performance, amazing spins, big jumps...she could be a front-runner for this coming quad...hell, she could have been #1 in the US since turning senior if she wasn't always (always) having boot issues. After 2+ years of struggling to find boots, if I were the USFSA I'd be looking to help out any way I could especially if it means she'll start skating better.

Once the boot issues are no longer an issue the question becomes is she capable of more than sporadic brilliance? As of now that's unclear. She's had some amazing skates (2015, 2017) but there's been a mountain of crappy performances in between, after which in most cases the "boot problem" excuse finds its way into the narrative. When that's no longer an excuse, what kind of skater are we dealing with? Do the UR and consistency issues go away? Or will it be the same skater we have now?

 

[aftershocks]

... though I did say Ashley outskated Karen this year

Oh, I missed that. But you can make the case I suppose overall. I see it as they both had problems and self-doubt this season, but I just feel Ashley should have received more respect and higher PCS in the US Nats fp than she got. It's not necessarily that Ash's PCS talent is better than Karen's @skateboy, but just that Ashley was lowballed by the judges who appeared to be down on her, especially after her troubles at 2017 Skate America, and Bradie's star beginning to rise.

But then, as I said earlier, Ashley was never an overwhelming or consistent fave of US fed. Whenever someone new came along, Ash was always treated like a trusty but expendable third wheel.

 

[lola10]

Once the boot issues are no longer an issue the question becomes is she capable of more than sporadic brilliance? As of now that's unclear. She's had some amazing skates (2015, 2017) but there's been a mountain of crappy performances in between, after which in most cases the "boot problem" excuse finds its way into the narrative. When that's no longer an excuse, what kind of skater are we dealing with? Do the UR and consistency issues go away? Or will it be the same skater we have now?

These are exactly the questions she needs to ask herself now. Hopefully, she has the right people around her who can help to take the next steps and are honest with her even through it might suck to hear. This is not the time for sugarcoating things. And then there is the question if she really has the determination and drive to make the necessary changes.
Chen started working with a sports psychologist last season and I do hope she continues to do so during the off-season to prepare herself mentally.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Perhaps sometimes all the sports-psychologists in the world can not help an athlete solve what they must come to grips with themselves. Hopefully such psychologists, if they are a good fit for the skater, can help lead or guide them in a helpful direction. I guess the old analogy: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I did wonder at the time if she subconsciously didn’t want to go to Worlds as the US Champion and preferred a more underdog role.

Whaat?!

Oh well, I guess it's possible to see and believe whatever, or wonder about completely subconscious matters that you aren't privy to actually knowing anything about. FWIW, Ashley stated with 'loud insistency' prior to 2017 Nationals that she wanted to win another U.S. championship.

To the contrary of your thinking, it might be safe to conclude that Ashley was deflated by not winning another U.S. championship, which did not exactly boost her rep and standing, nor her performance at 2017 Worlds. Ashley was, no matter what, gracious to Karen after her U.S. Nationals victory, and particularly after Karen landed in 4th at Worlds.

I do think Ashley went through some ups and downs in her competitive thought process and motivation for training after her silver medal win at 2016 Worlds. Still, I'm not sure that a feeling of needing to be the underdog ever truly played into it. I think that whole suggestion of Ashley 'needing to constantly be the underdog' is a bit overblown, partly due to something she has said in interviews, which doesn't make that always her 'set in stone' modus operandi. I'm not sure where her head was at after 2016. Possibly, it became harder and harder for her physically. And also continuing the necessary training grind was difficult for her to get herself to sustain mentally. But I doubt it's that she didn't want to win Nationals in 2017. Was she going through a dark, goth-like period (attested to by her hair color)? I never liked that black hair color on Ashley. She looks good now, and formerly with the red color.

 

[Spun Silver]

Once the boot issues are no longer an issue the question becomes is she capable of more than sporadic brilliance? As of now that's unclear. She's had some amazing skates (2015, 2017) but there's been a mountain of crappy performances in between, after which in most cases the "boot problem" excuse finds its way into the narrative. When that's no longer an excuse, what kind of skater are we dealing with? Do the UR and consistency issues go away? Or will it be the same skater we have now?

These are exactly the questions she needs to ask herself now. Hopefully, she has the right people around her who can help to take the next steps and are honest with her even through it might suck to hear. This is not the time for sugarcoating things. And then there is the question if she really has the determination and drive to make the necessary changes.
Chen started working with a sports psychologist last season and I do hope she continues to do so during the off-season to prepare herself mentally.

This attitude seems overly harsh to me. I don't know what the point is of speculating now on how Karen will perform without boot problems that she's had for ages -- just after her "savior" boot company dumped her! On top of foot issues she has a very painful back condition (see @Sylvia's post in the Avanta thread) that it is not clear she has fully overcome (it may not be fixable). Besides all of this she's 18 years old with a heck of a resume, even if it's not Kwanesque. (As if anyone else's is!) I think every skater has the right to be judged on their best performances, not their worst, unless there is a concrete reason why not (for example, a back condition). I think Karen has some time to figure this out - she doesnt need to do it on our timetable. I hope she can overcome whatever made her withdraw from Worlds and have a really fruitful off-season.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Everyone has their way of looking at it. I don't think what was previously expressed by the poster you cite has much to do with 'speculating how Karen might perform without boot problems.' With or without boot problems, Karen has to decide what she wants. When you know what you want, maybe you become willing to walk through fire to get it. If physical issues are overwhelming, so be it. Plenty of skaters have faced that dilemma and have had to make a choice to stop skating, even despite still desiring to skate. OTOH, plenty of champion athletes have been able to overcome stiff obstacles by strength of will, which is about mental fortitude and self-belief.

Mariah Bell has taken noticeable strides with Raf, despite so much poster comments saying she hasn't made any progress in consistency.

I love your post, and thanks. It's very well articulated and that's definitely my thinking regarding Ashley's and Karen's performances over the past two seasons.

As far as Mariah, maybe I missed where anything was said specifically about her consistency. I personally feel that it has been a period of adjustment for Mariah with Raf, and I've seen fans commenting on some of her improvements under Raf. But as Raf will and has told us, it's not a overnight thing working with older skaters who may have learned poor technique and/ or bad habits.

Regardless of whether or not Mariah has been making technical consistency progress, she still has to work on believing in herself and developing a winner take all, killer instinct. This is a tough sport, and you really have to want it and believe you can do it. Didn't that very scenario play out between Zagitova and Medvedeva at the Olympics? I think it did. They both wanted it and believed they could do it and they are tough competitors (despite getting a lot of help from the judges on PCS). Even Kaetlyn Osmond got her act together and decided she was going to fight for that singles podium after not skating cleanly in the team event and still getting the team gold. The thing with Osmond though is that she seemed happy to fight for Olympic bronze. I guess it's understandable after Osmond didn't prove to herself nor to the judges that she wanted to slam dunk the Russian ladies when she had the chance in head-to-heads during the GP.

 

[shady82]

^^ Everyone has their way of looking at it. I don't think what was previously expressed by the poster you cite has much to do with 'speculating how Karen might perform without boot problems.' With or without boot problems, Karen has to decide what she wants. When you know what you want, maybe you become willing to walk through fire to get it. If physical issues are overwhelming, so be it. Plenty of skaters have faced that dilemma and have had to make a choice to stop skating, even despite still desiring to skate. OTOH, plenty of champion athletes have been able to overcome stiff obstacles by strength of will, which is about mental fortitude and self-belief.



I love your post, and thanks. It's very well articulated and that's definitely my thinking regarding Ashley's and Karen's performances over the past two seasons.

As far as Mariah, maybe I missed where anything was said specifically about her consistency. I personally feel that it has been a period of adjustment for Mariah with Raf, and I've seen fans commenting on some of her improvements under Raf. But as Raf will and has told us, it's not a overnight thing working with older skaters who may have learned poor technique and/ or bad habits.

I think that Mariah's overall level of skating and technical content has gone up noticeably after Raf. Whereas under Kori getting scores in the 160s was the norm for her, nowadays a score in the 160s is considered a bad outing by her standards. She still has a long way to go in consistency, of course, but she was never even in the question mark of challenging for Worlds spots until after she changed coaches. Then, she was beginning to get scores that could challenge both Polina and Mirai if they were healthy and skating well. Hopefully she will show one of her better outings at Worlds. Unlike many, I actually like her long program.

Regarding Evgenia, Alina, and Eteri's other students, I wonder if Eteri filters students based on whether they are 'easy' to prepare mentally for competitions. None of her current students, except maybe Polina, are headcasey at all. There have been both consistent and inconsistent Russian skaters all throughout history, so consistency and mental strength in competition is not necessarily a 'Russian' thing.

 

[Vagabond]

I do not buy the argument that Ashley deserved higher PCS.

I might be mistaken on this, but from what I have read here on FSU, the argument is not that she deserved higher PCS but rather that she was previously overmarked, especially by foreign judges at international competitions this season and then -- without notice -- those EVILLE U.S. judges gave her the marks she deserved.

How cruel life can be!

 

[Willin]

@Dobre @Vagabond The argument isn't that she deserved higher PCS, it's that all other top skaters got a significant Nationals PCS bump - something Ashley didn't get. Again, I'm against judging conspiracy theories because I don't think judges are told what marks to give, but it is a bit odd that she didn't get that boost despite it being given to every other lady who was in realistic contention for the team. If you're doubting that she didn't get the PCS boost other ladies did, these charts show it.

I think part of it may be just that a lot of US judges don't like her - whether it be because of her skating style, personality, or teenage antics - but that doesn't explain why she's gotten the Nationals PCS boost in previous years but not this year. TBH I have no good explanation for why that happened myself and there's really no good reason for it and I think she's right to question it. I would want to find out why that happened if it happened to me.

ETA: I also doubt Ashley did the math in her head because she didn't know the exact numbers, but the difference in PCS bump in the LP made the difference (though as I said earlier Ashley could've just landed that 3-3 so it wouldn't come down to the PCS). Karen beat Ashley by 2.40 points. Combining SP+LP, Ashley got 0.1 point from PCS "boost" compared to her season average; Karen got 8.11 points in PCS "boost" compared to her season average. That was more than enough to put her above Ashley.

 

[aftershocks]

... Regarding Evgenia, Alina, and Eteri's other students, I wonder if Eteri filters students based on whether they are 'easy' to prepare mentally for competitions. None of her current students, except maybe Polina, are headcasey at all. There have been both consistent and inconsistent Russian skaters all throughout history, so consistency and mental strength in competition is not necessarily a 'Russian' thing.

Right, of course it's not. It's just a Russian phenomenon going on now in the ladies division due to the buzz and hype coupled with Eteri's tough training methods. Maybe you are right that Russian skaters who are not strong mentally get filtered out by Eteri. That likely happens in China too, particularly in the pairs discipline.

But also in pairs and formerly in ice dance, the Russian aesthetic tradition has always been admired and bowed down to, so quite often a lot is expected of Russian skaters and they tend to be highly regarded by judges. Of course, Russian skaters have to show competitive consistency, but they do often have an advantage, particularly in pairs and now ladies singles. Formerly Kovtun for his jumping, and now Kolyada is highly regarded and well-scored (Kolyada is gorgeous when he's on). Kolyada has been receiving high rewards recently even when he doesn't skate well.

I think the overriding thing is that the judges like to reward skaters who they feel are strong and consistent technically. If you can prove that on a regular basis, and if you have enough buzz, hype and politicking behind you (and in many cases, when 'skating while Russian,' somehow the PCS scores tend to rise.). Of course, there's a strong Russian dance and theater cultural tradition, which is how the Russian 'aesthetic' evolved. Plus there are some very excellent Russian coaches. I also believe that many Russian skaters see skating as a way to make it in life. That's a powerful motivation.