litenkyckling
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if it was in 2019 then definitely a rarity! But from another team that tech panels go with but judges don't as much.
U.S. Ice Dance 2022-23 news & updates
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VGThuy
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Green/Parsons had a pretty good showing at Skate Canada. Hawayek/Baker are showing they can make a run for the title. Chock/Bates need to get back into the groove because they lost TES to a bunch of teams in Skate Canada, including Green/Parsons (I know competitions aren’t supposed to be compared but we all do it anyway). And I am now a crazy stan of Ian Somerville.
Anybody else has thoughts regarding US ice dance after the first two GP events?
Anybody else has thoughts regarding US ice dance after the first two GP events?
Somerville is an amazing talent Emily is improving.
Karen-W
YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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Well, I think SCI was it's usual, over-scored event, so it's really hard to take much away from it, especially with regard to where ChoBat stand compared to the rest of the top 6-7 teams, and it's also hard to see exactly where GrePar are going to fit in, though I do think they've successfully separated themselves into a higher tier than WolfChen, BratSom, PateBye and McNSpir. We have yet to see where CarPon fit into all of this, and next week will give us a better idea of what the ISU judges think of WolfChen & PateBye.
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As I said in the FD thread, Gre/Par are losing their advantage from last season as the natural heirs to the #3 spot. Last year’s FD created buzz, this one is a snooze button.
If Wolf/Chen skate that frantic FD full out without mistakes (a big IF) they will be a force to be reckoned with. CarPom we don’t know yet. Pate/Bye will get the audience with Riverdance but I’d be surprised if they came in ahead of other teams with better technical chops.
H/B could win but I doubt they will. Of course, Meryl and Charlie and the Shibs proved that every now and then you can jump the line.
If Wolf/Chen skate that frantic FD full out without mistakes (a big IF) they will be a force to be reckoned with. CarPom we don’t know yet. Pate/Bye will get the audience with Riverdance but I’d be surprised if they came in ahead of other teams with better technical chops.
H/B could win but I doubt they will. Of course, Meryl and Charlie and the Shibs proved that every now and then you can jump the line.
VGThuy
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The bolded part brought back memories. Not to bring my Shibs fandom into this thread, but I remember being told the same thing when at 2015 SCI, the Shibs matched Chock/Bates’ FD score from Skate America. I’m not saying that’s going to happen, but I do think things are more comparable give or take a few points, which I know in ice dance is a lot.
dancing_on_ice
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I think the key competition for Chock/Bates is going to be NHK Trophy. They scored so low at Skate America because of how technically messy they were. If they look that messy again at NHK, then there are going to be serious question marks for if they can win the US title. They need to be much cleaner if they want to beat F-B/S at NHK.
It's hard to compare C/B's score to G/P's score at Skate Canada because Skate Canada was very generously scored compared to Skate America (B/S's score was over 10 points higher than M/S) and C/B were very messy while G/P were clean. A good comparison would be once we seen what a clean C/B can score this season.
It's hard to compare C/B's score to G/P's score at Skate Canada because Skate Canada was very generously scored compared to Skate America (B/S's score was over 10 points higher than M/S) and C/B were very messy while G/P were clean. A good comparison would be once we seen what a clean C/B can score this season.
Karen-W
YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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I'm not entirely sure what to make of the SCI scores, to be honest. GilPoir and FearGib were ridiculously over-scored for what they put out on the ice. LajLag were brought back down to earth after the insane overscoring they got at both their Challengers. GrePar have made good improvements to both their RD and FD in the 3 weeks since Finlandia, and it showed in their scores here, but I thought they should have been closer to LeGacs than LajLag, so that's where I think the score might be a little suspect. We'll see how things play out over the rest of the season.
BlueRidge
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The scoring actually depends on the skating and how they execute their elements, so I think Green & Parsons are well placed after this showing. I'm not a big fan of Gershwin but they are doing well with this dance.
VGThuy
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But why would Green/Parsons be selectively overscored at SCI but not say Canadian L/L and not H/B and C/B at Skate America?
litenkyckling
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The tech panel at SCI were more generous than at SkAm I think.
I'm still not sold on this Gershwin FD (and I think LaLa deserved the bronze here and had they not made small errors in the RD the margin would be around 3 points between them). I know they've revamped the FD a little - but 2 of the lifts (I forget which ones, but maybe curve and choreo?) look very similar, so I think changing them a little would be good. The slide is much better than those uninspired choreo jumps. A definite improvement from Finlandia but I still don't think these programmes are what they could've been. A good example of why pre-GP challengers are so important if you can manage one though.
I'm still not sold on this Gershwin FD (and I think LaLa deserved the bronze here and had they not made small errors in the RD the margin would be around 3 points between them). I know they've revamped the FD a little - but 2 of the lifts (I forget which ones, but maybe curve and choreo?) look very similar, so I think changing them a little would be good. The slide is much better than those uninspired choreo jumps. A definite improvement from Finlandia but I still don't think these programmes are what they could've been. A good example of why pre-GP challengers are so important if you can manage one though.
georgiana08
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I'd kill to know what Caroline and Michael originally had planned for this season.
Canadian teams tend to be overscored at SC, which doesn't usually happen to U.S. teams at SA. Kind of like Lombardia scores compared to U.S. Classic.
C/B lost about 9-10 points due to invalidated steps and missed levels (compared to what they usually score on those elements) between both programs, and that's not counting the additional GOE and PCS they would have likely received if they skated cleanly. I don't think there's reason to declare H/B nat'l champs just yet.
C/B lost about 9-10 points due to invalidated steps and missed levels (compared to what they usually score on those elements) between both programs, and that's not counting the additional GOE and PCS they would have likely received if they skated cleanly. I don't think there's reason to declare H/B nat'l champs just yet.
VGThuy
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For me, it’s not so much that Chock/Bates can’t return to form but other teams can catch up. It happened to them twice before. And we know how reputation can build in ice dance and if doors are opening for other teams to be seen within their level (even with major mistakes), then that’ll build within the next three seasons and a half. If the powers start seeing a team as an actual competitor, their scores will reflect that as well,
Oh, sure, H/B will definitely be building a rep as a top team over the next quad. I'm sure C/B know that. I was referring specifically to this season. As for future seasons, C/B haven't made any commitments beyond this season, so we'll see how the U.S. dance landscape evolves.
firstflight
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I think we can conclude the judges are not in fact dumping G/Par this season. Like others, I was kind of surprised when the FD came in that they were so close to L/Lagha. And if that jump up in scores came within such a short period of time between the two competitions, I don’t see why the program can’t continue to get tweaked to maximize potential toward the end of the season.
One competition doesn’t tell us much about C/B’s rest of the season. It’s more that after Skate Canada, with G/Poi’s much better start, the narrative that a C/B gold at worlds is the “natural” outcome doesn’t really fit anymore.
Presuming C/B do get back to their scoring potential from last season, I think the US/Canada rivalry is actually kind of cool this year with 3 distinct bands: C/B in a battle with G/Poi, H/B being positioned to battle F/S, and G/Par still tight with L/Lagha.
One competition doesn’t tell us much about C/B’s rest of the season. It’s more that after Skate Canada, with G/Poi’s much better start, the narrative that a C/B gold at worlds is the “natural” outcome doesn’t really fit anymore.
Presuming C/B do get back to their scoring potential from last season, I think the US/Canada rivalry is actually kind of cool this year with 3 distinct bands: C/B in a battle with G/Poi, H/B being positioned to battle F/S, and G/Par still tight with L/Lagha.
At this point in the season, we're seeing a very large number of Level 2 step sequences (one-foot and otherwise) from quality dance teams. I assume those are going to be cleaned up over the next few months, but some teams may still have a bunch of Level 3s at the end of the season.
litenkyckling
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but also interestingly, we're seeing a much higher number of Level 4's than we did last season. None at SCI I don't think, but elsewhere there have been.
VGThuy
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By worlds, we’ll probably start seeing more level 4s…and a lot more level 3s. Whether those calls are accurate…it just tends to happen. Of course, Worlds may have a severely tough tech panel. Thank goodness for all those non-leveled elements determining who the medalists are now.
The ones at the Denis Ten memorial might be the most fake level 4 steps I've ever seen
RoseRed
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This is kind of overstating things. The scores at Budapest were high, but their Nepela score was lower than what they got at SC (193.35 vs 195.49), so saying they were ridiculously over-scored at both Challengers and then brought down to Earth doesn't really make sense. Also, it was mainly just the RD score that was really high at Budapest. They had 120.31 in the FD there, compared to 119.55 here, so less than a point difference (it was 117.56 at Nepela).
This is kind of what I feel. It's not so much about comparing the scores directly, but I do think it's accurate that Gi/Po looked stronger and cleaner at their first event than C/B. And that's not determinative, but it's also not irrelevant when looking ahead.
Top Scores of Americans so far this season. Interesting how close some of these teams are!
| 5 | Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES | USA | ISU GP Skate America 2022 | 23/10/2022 | 202.80 | S |
| 7 | Kaitlin HAWAYEK / Jean-Luc BAKER | USA | ISU GP Skate America 2022 | 23/10/2022 | 202.07 | S |
| 8 | Caroline GREEN / Michael PARSONS | USA | ISU GP Skate Canada International 2022 | 29/10/2022 | 194.19 | S |
| 14 | Katarina WOLFKOSTIN / Jeffrey CHEN | USA | ISU CS Budapest Trophy 2022 | 16/10/2022 | 180.46 | S |
| 15 | Eva PATE / Logan BYE | USA | ISU CS U.S. International FS Classic 2022 | 15/09/2022 | 179.63 | S |
| 16 | Emily BRATTI / Ian SOMERVILLE | USA | ISU GP Skate Canada International 2022 | 29/10/2022 | 179.14 | S |
| 17 | Lorraine MCNAMARA / Anton SPIRIDONOV | USA | ISU CS U.S. International FS Classic 2022 | 15/09/2022 | 179.03 | S |
| 28 | Oona BROWN / Gage BROWN | USA | ISU CS Budapest Trophy 2022 | 16/10/2022 | 166.33 | S |
Karen-W
YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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Hard to really say what's happening and where they stand in relation to each other since there's a mix of GP and Challenger scores here. We'll know more next week after GPdF when WolfChen and PateBye skate, and even more in two weeks once the Browns and CarPon have gotten out on the GP.
clairecloutier
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Comments from Green/Parsons at Skate Canada:
www.instagram.com
Absolute Skating on Instagram: "(about expectations from the season after coaching change) Caroline Green: We had to leave some of those expectations at the door and really be open to a whole new slew of perspectives. Considering that we made so many
116 likes, 0 comments - absoluteskating on October 31, 2022: "(about expectations from the season after coaching change) Caroline Green: We had to leave some of those expectations at the door and really be open to a whole new slew of perspectives. Considering that we made so many changes in the...
www.instagram.com
BlueRidge
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Its interesting to see what their view of the season is:Comments from Green/Parsons at Skate Canada:
Absolute Skating on Instagram: "(about expectations from the season after coaching change) Caroline Green: We had to leave some of those expectations at the door and really be open to a whole new slew of perspectives. Considering that we made so many
116 likes, 0 comments - absoluteskating on October 31, 2022: "(about expectations from the season after coaching change) Caroline Green: We had to leave some of those expectations at the door and really be open to a whole new slew of perspectives. Considering that we made so many changes in the...
Michael "After the coaching change we went into the season with not higher or lower expectations but really no expectations. It's more of a learning year, to learn more about ourselves as skaters, as people."
Caroline: "We had to leave some of those expectations at the door and really be open to a whole new slew of perspectives. Considering that we made so many changes in the off season, learning different ways how to skate, learning new qualities about things we want to improve on... Going into this competition we were looking to get out there and skate for ourselves, skate for a crowd again, feel that energy, put ourselves back out there on the competitive scene."
So they view this season as a restart. They didn't do well in their Challenger compared to where they were last year at the same time but it seems like they have already righted that at Skate Canada. Now the question is can they build on it. I look forward to seeing their next outing.
sk9tingfan
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Ian Somerville is a rockstar and definitely outshines his partner. Hawayek and Baker looked great at SA and showed the greatest confidence and technique I've ever seen.
I think that the days of Chock and Bates using pretty (dragging Madison all over the ice) may be over. While I know judging panels are different at different competitions, C&B's scores are so low, relatively speaking, that other pairs being judged at significantly higher levels, is sending a signal. Evolve or else.
sk9tingfan
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And they're two months behind many of the dance pairs.
VGThuy
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Chock/Bates are kind of lucky that they're coming in as big contenders, have EARNED great will based on their past few FDs (love THEM!), and the ice dance requirements aren't so heavy on skating-skills and ice dance foundational skills-related content (so many unleveled elements able to gain massive points collectively). I won't be calling their career until they do. We've seen them come back from an early rough start before and we've seen them fall behind two ice dance teams they were poised to be ahead of at the beginning of the Olympic cycle only to come back stronger (though they never quite overtook H/D in the post-2018 era though they did enjoy some victories over them).
Their scores at SA were "so low" b/c they had an entire element invalidated. Plus some smaller errors/lost levels on other elements. All told, they probably lost about 9-10 points between both programs on just TES. They acknowledged that their programs need to "evolve" and they need to clean up the errors.
clairecloutier
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Honestly, I think it's too soon to say this. Chock/Bates's PCS/GOE marks at Skate America were still in the same realm as Gilles/Poirier's at SC (if slightly lower). And, the slightly lower PCS/GOE did accurately reflect C/B's level of preparation and execution. If C/B skate much better at their next event, I think their PCS/GOE marks will improve accordingly.
That said, it's the start of a new quad, and that means the judges are going to be giving generally higher marks than before to teams whom they now view as major medal contenders (in the absence of now-retired teams). So yes, C/B's margin over these up-and-coming teams is likely to narrow--until they reassert themselves as clear leaders based on actual performance.
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