The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[nimi]

ISU Ice Dance Coach's Meeting has been posted! Just under 2 hours long. Get at it Ice Dance nerds!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKPv2koFT_Q

For us not quite full-on ice dance nerds who don't want to sit through the whole thing, this post on GS summarizes the main points and is a useful cheat sheet.

Finnstep + pattern type st sq (à la 2014/15 paso doble) confirmed

One section of Finnstep, steps 1-33. Pattern must be skated on Quickstep, Charleston or Swing
(...)
Pattern dance type step sequence (style b) should be staked on the same rhythm chosen for Finnstep. It should start immediately after the slide and stop of Step#33 of the Finnstep

 

[Colonel Green]

I assume they will do the GP. They took off this past fall to do the Thank You Canada tour. That was something special, not an annual event.

Virtue and Moir actually are planning another tour in the fall, this time with US stops included -- one that will doubtless include a lot of the TYCT people, such as Osmond if, as most people now think, she's done with competing. So the option is definitely there for Weaver and Poje if they want to. But as I said, I don't think they will.

 

[believed]

They admit that the +/-5 is not working very well in Ice Dance. It doesn't differentiate too much. They would need more +s. Halina Gordon Poltorak suggests a range from -3 to 7.

I don’t think a WIDER GOE range is the solution, guys.

 

[VGThuy]

Wait, their idea to fix it is to go to a -3 to +7 range?

 

[Debbie S]

IMO, the solution to overemphasizing GOE at the expense of tech skill is to have a wider score difference in the base values of the elements for each level. Along with the increased GOE range, the differences in values for the most part were decreased this season, not sure why.

 

[jtpc]

I'll post my disdain for the Polish team's PCS here as well in case people don't have access to the play-by-play thread.

I'd be interested to know if the Polish team really thinks their quality of skating deserves 8's. To me, their SS are so inferior, I was outraged when they were receiving 7's instead of 6's a few years ago, and now they've ascended into the 8's. Surely when you sometimes have difficulty keeping your balance with both feet on the ice, and you see that you're receiving similar SS components to those who can effortlessly turn in both directions on 1 foot, while holding beautiful, long, deep, sustained edges, you must start to wonder at some point how that could be happening.

I watch the 1 foot step sequence of the Brits and immediately feel they have far superior SS, yet their SS component came out lower. That 5 second glimpse into SS through that sequence, shows you superior edge quality, sureness, attack, ease of turn execution and changes of edge, and stronger ability to maintain flow through the turns. What I also like about the Brits and their FD is their exceptional level of performance. Through their energy, choreography, and ability to just let it go, they are truly committed to delivering a memorable performance and they do. Then you look at the components, and they don't even get the PE component over the Polish team. Frustrating.

 

[bcash]

IMO, the solution to overemphasizing GOE at the expense of tech skill is to have a wider score difference in the base values of the elements for each level. Along with the increased GOE range, the differences in values for the most part were decreased this season, not sure why.

This is definitely the logical solution. I don't know what Ms.Poltorak is thinking.

 

[taz'smum]

G/F should be ahead of S/B.

ETA: And you've left off Lajoie/Lagha. They should be 22nd I think.

Nice avatar.

Ha ha, did it too quickly, lol!

@RoseRed Thanks for liking my avatar

For now I am a citizen of both - let it remain that way - UK, revoke article 50 quickly before it's too late!!

 

[sap5]

Virtue and Moir actually are planning another tour in the fall, this time with US stops included -- one that will doubtless include a lot of the TYCT people, such as Osmond if, as most people now think, she's done with competing. So the option is definitely there for Weaver and Poje if they want to. But as I said, I don't think they will.

I don’t know if the option is really there. This notice says you can only be on the national team if you’re assigned to a 2019 GP event. I suppose they could be assigned & then back out, but that wouldn’t be the best look.
https://noticeboard.skatecanada.ca/2019/01/25/2019-2020-national-teams/

 

[starrynight]

Wait, their idea to fix it is to go to a -3 to +7 range?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

See, this is what happens when you get so over-excited that you give everyone +5 immediately. There was meant to be additional range there.

If they change to +7 they will have it maxed out by Worlds next year anyway.

...

As for Weaver/Poje, they gave an interview where they talked about the demands of trying to train while doing that tour. It sounded quite stressful. They had to book ice time on full sized rinks, travel back to coaches during breaks, self-critique and they arranged local judges in the towns to turn up and provide feedback on their programs. It sounded like a lot of work. I don't imagine they would want to do that again if they were still competing. I think that if they were to compete next season (which I think they will) they would want to concentrate on having the best showing for home Worlds. They've also said that the Beijing Olympics are in their line of sight, but they are taking it season by season.

Plus, Skate Canada has changed the eligibility of the National team so that you need to do the grand prix. Presumably that's a step to stop an annual tour during the Grand Prix draining all of their talent from competition each season. After all, the financial incentive for skaters to do that tour greatly outweighs the prospect of a bit of prize money on the grand prix.

 

[Colonel Green]

After the Worlds rhythm dance I commented on the battle of the North American #3 teams, that I thought Fourner Beaudry/Sorensen were on the path to moving past Hawayek/Baker in the standings long term. The results of the free dance would tend to reinforce that, since F-B/S won there.

I was going to say I expect (all things being equal, performance-wise) them to place ahead at next year's Worlds, when they've had a full season under their belt rather than emerging late in the game, but since next year's Worlds is in Canada that's maybe not the optimal point of comparison.

 

[starrynight]

Watching the video of the meeting. Patrice asked for more clarity about what was defined as unique and interesting in spin / lift exits (because they kept saying a 'hop and twizzle' was not unique. Patrice wanted to know if that meant this should be avoided and commented that the rules were grey and he needed more guidance as to what qualified as 'interesting or unique'.

The head of the committee just laughs and says 'Patrice, you are the last person in the room who should ask this question' and words similar to 'Patrice you will have no problem finding many unique and interesting combinations'.

LOL

Then Patrice pushes further and says 'but I have teams that do a drag and a twizzle, is that not ok anymore?'

The response is that it depends on how it is done.

I just thought that exchange was hilarious in respect of how who the choreographer is can determine what they view reaches the threshold of unique, intricate and creative.

Barbara Fusar-Poli then gets worked up and says that for example putting a rocker and counter after a lift is very intricate but those steps aren't unique. She asks if that counts for the difficult exit requirement because they aren't unique. More talking about how it's 'how you do it' and Barbara is very adamant that it is grey and wants to know who decides what qualifies as unique. Ruffling some feathers on the committee very much ... she even gets a face pulled at her.

Very interesting dynamic change to the way they were sucking up to Patrice.

 

[Dobre]

The problem with putting "unique" into a Code of Points system is that as soon as something unique yet not particularly difficult starts earning points, it's uniqueness goes out the window because everyone does it.

 

[starrynight]

The problem with putting "unique" into a Code of Points system is that as soon as something unique yet not particularly difficult starts earning points, it's uniqueness goes out the window because everyone does it.

I think Patrice was making a big effort to find out what they actually wanted. He's smart enough to not accept the 'oh Patrice darling you will be fine' business because he knows the Russians are coming. It's this kind of political mechanism of who decides what is 'unique' that can be used to turn tides.

 

[Dobre]

They need to be discussing the points/base value awarded for the levels. I can't fathom how this cannot have been discussed?

I totally get where they are coming from with the repetitive hopping in & out of lifts. All I had to do was sit through one ice dance event this summer to see the same repetitive problem. Not everything is "political." Sometimes it's sheer overuse & common sense. But the coaches have to discern how to translate advice into reality. I mention the issue with "unique" because I remember the Khorkina era in gymnastics. She did a double twist off the side of the beam. It was very unique when she first did it, but a double twist is also an easy dismount. So boom! as soon as it was worth points for its uniqueness, we had scads of them (all countries were guilty). Also her twisting drops on floor. Nothing stays unique if it is easy & worth more points than more difficult elements. And then what do you do? You stop giving credit for the feature? You give credit to the first-fifth team that does the element and you don't give credit to the sixth-tenth team that does it? You get forty of them, and we have to wait until the next Olympics before you get rid of them?

 

[starrynight]

They need to be discussing the points/base value awarded for the levels. I can't fathom how this cannot have been discussed?

I haven't got to the end of the video yet... did they seriously not discuss that?

I'm also quite interested in what Barbara was talking about with the cross rolls and the cross steps with the tango romantica and the suggestion that the steps of the pattern were unofficially changed mid-season? Could someone explain what that is about?

Nothing stays unique if it is easy & worth more points than more difficult elements. And then what do you do? You stop giving credit for the feature? You give credit to the first-fifth team that does the element and you don't give credit to the sixth-tenth team that does it? You get forty of them, and we have to wait until the next Olympics before you get rid of them?

I'm sure ice dance judging will find a way to make sure that only certain teams get credit.

 

[Debbie S]

That exchange with Patrice as described above reminds me of my finance class in business school with a professor who was probably brilliant but couldn't articulate or explain anything. I remember trying to ask a question about some problem and never getting an actual answer. Really, if the ice dance committee wants to make changes or take the sport in a different direction, then they need to give specific guidance. This sounds like that entertainment bonus they proposed last season which ended up being scrapped. I wonder if "unique and interesting" will be scrapped too.

 

[cocotaffy]

I would love for someone to get their hands on the RD and FD videos commented by Ben Agosto and Tanith or if not, at least if someone could listen to them, give us the gist of the most interesting of their comments on the top teams. We used to be able to find it on YT and they always have interesting comments on posture, speed and technic.

 

[becca]

Indeed F-B/S have made a strong impact, and good for them! However, H/B are a very strong team, with Kaitlin much stronger and improved since the move to Gadbois. As usual, Jean-Luc is the bomb. He has skating skills to die-for. And I'm done with all the snarky critiques about Jean-Luc's size. We all have to work with what we've got! And boy, does he!

H/B edged F-B/S in the RD for good reason. And H/B actually skated well enough to have been scored higher, with all of the high scores being handed out. It's just the politics that begins to kick in when there are so many good teams to slot into positions. I fear G/P and G/F are gonna be lost in the mix forever at the big games (Worlds & Olympics) despite their talent, because the sport's competitive structure is so outdated. Everyone sighs and shrugs their shoulders and concedes they have to work with the system that's in place. If only they could ferret out the conflicting politics and inherent biases.

I point fingers at RusFed because their maneuvering is and has historically been so patently obvious.



The scoring rise at Worlds has zip to do with S/K's scores at Euros, since they made a mistake in the RD at Euros. The rise is about their season's best 77+ at GPF making such a huge leap to 83.94+ podium territory at Worlds. No one else among the top teams, aside from P/C and Step/Buk has made such a scoring leap this season. G/P got an 80+ season's best in the RD, but it means little for their overall placement with all of the even higher scoring teams ahead of them.

It's as if the judging panel decided to throw out some candy liberally, so as to soften the blow of RusFed teams getting the podium-level goodies (which is also to ensure a third Russian team makes Worlds in the coming seasons). Not that it won't be cool to see Zahorski/Guerreiro in the mix at Worlds next season. There are simply too many good teams for the way the competitive structure and scoring is set up.

S/K got a huge score but plenty of teams did. However they weren’t far from the pack.

They have been on the scene for four years and they won a silver GPF medal.

I think the two have improved dramatically. Tanith was commenting on their rhythm dance that some teams will sacrifice difficulty for speed. Whereas S/K had difficulty and speed. And while I/K had spark I recall open skating being their big criticism.

She didn’t seem to dispute they are a top team.

It is new quad and it is common for new teams to emerge move up see P/C. It is very clear that S/K have improved tremendously.

It’s not like S/K were middling all year long and got this huge score increase they have been skating lights out but for Europeans.

 

[Rukia]

I watched the entire ice dance coach's meeting, and I think the thing I found most intersting is that they are making seperate requirements for the twizzle sequence in the RD vs the twizzle sequence in the FD. They want to make sure dancers aren't just doing the same twizzle set in each dance.

Also the definition of crossrolls is serious business.

 

[Katha]

The thing with Elena and Nikita (yes, I'm going there...) is that they've both been such massive underachievers relative to their potential and talent, together and with other partners, and the judges know it. The judges, to this day it seems, are kinda waiting for them to get it together so they can reward them. S/K improved tremendously this year and actually showed what they're capable of on the ice, particularly that RD. IMO that RD was their ticket into medal contention this season: It showed that they can thrive with highly difficult choreography, perhaps moreso than some of their rivals.

Should this I/S pairing ever materialize (which I kinda want to see because LULZ but also because Soloviev is a truly excellent dancer) and they are any good: I expect the same thing will happen and the judges will go with them. I and K skating up to their potential are glorious ice dancers.

 

[mollymgr]

This just shows how complex it is to put numbers on subjective things. The change to +7 isn't going to make one bit of a difference. I'm not really sure where they want to go with ice dance. It isn't drastically changing anything.
If you read the rulebook, there is no way someone could read the rules they write and interpret them correctly. I bet that is quite a challenge for coaches/choreographers to keep up. Even for the descriptions, they liberally use loose and vague terms that can be interpreted as anything under the sun. There is also no way to enforce compliance to these rules as a result. It just makes the average viewer more .

 

[illyria]

The press conference said that a temporary deviation by the lifting partner reduces the level by 1. This basically means that now for example, H/D would have got a level 3 stationary lift at 4CC instead of base level, and still won gold instead of coming in 4th.

 

[starrynight]

This just shows how complex it is to put numbers on subjective things. The change to +7 isn't going to make one bit of a difference. I'm not really sure where they want to go with ice dance. It isn't drastically changing anything.

I really do think that +5 GOE should be enough if the judges use some restraint with it. But I'm just sure that if they were given +7 then they would just max it all out at that anyway. The really high GOE will only serve to just give some teams really high scores. I don't think it will make the sport any more interesting to watch?

Actually the one thing I do think is a step in the right direction is making teams submit a name of a musical for the RD to ensure that there's no 'cheating' of the theme.

I think having themed RD's is great.

I think that might make it so we will see everyone interpreting a musical, which should be entertaining. And not get a repeat of years where there were short dances which weren't in any way in theme (but just made compliant with a tacked on drum beat etc).

The press conference said that a temporary deviation by the lifting partner reduces the level by 1. This basically means that now for example, H/D would have got a level 3 stationary lift at 4CC instead of base level, and still won gold instead of coming in 4th.

Ah yes, I was listening to that wondering what it was referring to. Rule changes like that are usually there to *correct* something.

 

[Debbie S]

The press conference said that a temporary deviation by the lifting partner reduces the level by 1. This basically means that now for example, H/D would have got a level 3 stationary lift at 4CC instead of base level, and still won gold instead of coming in 4th.

For the sake of accuracy, H/D would have actually finished 2nd at 4CC even w/o losing levels on the lift, b/c they also lost levels on their spin which would have been enough to drop them below C/B overall.

 

[Orm Irian]

Ah yes, I was listening to that wondering what it was referring to. Rule changes like that are usually there to *correct* something.

Or to address a situation that nobody realised wasn't actually covered in the existing rules, sometimes. I suspect that was what the panel at 4CC found themselves dealing with, a situation there was no defined process for responding to, so they had to make up a ruling on the fly by cobbling together what tools they had available. Now they know the issue can come up, they've put something in place to address it.

 

[thvu]

Or to address a situation that nobody realised wasn't actually covered in the existing rules, sometimes. I suspect that was what the panel at 4CC found themselves dealing with, a situation there was no defined process for responding to, so they had to make up a ruling on the fly by cobbling together what tools they had available. Now they know the issue can come up, they've put something in place to address it.

The rules already existed, there was no cobbling. They’re just making it more clear now (not buried away in the Q&A clarifications), and making it less punitive.

 

[aftershocks]

S/K got a huge score but plenty of teams did. However they weren’t far from the pack.

IMO, it was overly liberal scoring for S/K and S/B to ensure at least one or both made the podium. The high scores for many teams were course-corrected in the FD, but still the objective of the panel was reached by having S/K remain in silver position. All season the push was to get S/K and S/B into podium position for Worlds. Of course they have improved, but neither are better than a lot of teams they were placed in front of.

Hey but kudos for both teams. They are certainly much better than B/S ever were. S/B are very entertaining, if not well-matched physically. I enjoy watching both teams, but neither have done anything that special to make them stand-outs among the field. But yeah, it's very important for Russia to regain some credence and a foothold, if not complete dominance in ice dance. At the moment, complete dominance belongs to stellar, out-of-this-world P/C.

 

[VGThuy]

Man, give it time and there will be no punishment for making mistakes on elements now.

 

[chantilly]

I have yet to see the FD. Super busy. But IMO S and B were way over scored and didn’t deserve to be ahead of any of W and P, C and B, G and F or G and P. In the RD.

I actually do concede that S and K deserved the silver position.

But I think you could argue for H and D too.

I did like P and C, but I don’t think they deserved to be six points ahead. I’d say 2 to 3 max. I found their twizzles a bit slow. And their mid line. Their curve lift was beautiful but I still don’t think they have the best lifts in the field.

They certainly deserve to win, just IMO not by that large a margin.