The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[taz'smum]

They were not error free.
At least Nikita wasn't. He had a very visible freaky moment in the twizzles. Another team lost 1 level on it, but not him. That is the diff between second and 7 th place.

He did lose a level on the twizzle, he got level 3

 

[deegee]

They were not error free.
At least Nikita wasn't. He had a very visible freaky moment in the twizzles. Another team lost 1 level on it, but not him. That is the diff between second and 7 th place.

do you mean donohue (or hubbel-- i didn't quite catch which one strayed from the arc)? i can't see anything demonstrably wrong with nikita's twizzles other than their usual wildness.

 

[deegee]

He did lose a level on the twizzle, he got level 3

oh. ok. i can't pinpoint where the drop in level would have occurred.

 

[Bigbird]

oh. ok. i can't pinpoint where the drop in level would have occurred.

At the beginning of the second twizzle there is a noticable balance check. But he recovered quickly.

 

[bcash]

On KP4 of the TR2, the side by side LFI, almost all other skaters (I haven't seen the lower-ranked teams) lean their upper bodies including their heads forward, to the direction of progression, which may be the orthodox way to do it, but only P/C, since their IdF debut, keep their chests out and upper back as straight as possible, with P looking up and away from the direction of progression, adding an elegant and evocative inflection to this move. This is just one example of the many fine details that separate this team from the rest. (Another unique, arresting detail which they didn't keep for Worlds, was at IdF when right after the Helicopter in TR1, Gabi P. looked away, turning her eyes down and face away from C and the judges, to the direction of her legs and feet, adding an extra touch of melancholy to the whole mood, and maybe the judges weren't able to see that, but that speaks volumes of their interpretative nuance and integrity.)

I'm sure skaters have been told by their dance and movement coaches that arm and leg movements should come from the center of the back, rather than from the shoulders and hips, but I'm always struck by how P/C are so deft at realizing this principle while executing difficult steps on ice, which is the source of their sweep, amplitude and elongated lines. Not quite so for some of the other top teams who, though having been in the game longer, just never seem to be able to truly feel it in their bodies.

 

[starrynight]

Still in utter disbelief that 12 teams got perfect level 4s for the tango romantica

 

[Ka3sha]

Still in utter disbelief that 12 teams got perfect level 4s for the tango romantica

Black Friday for everyone

 

[starrynight]

If you look on skating scores.com under each team's name, they actually have stats for the levels each team has got throughout the season on each section of the tango romantica.

Plenty of interesting examples.

For example in international competition Hawayek/Baker never got above a level 1 for the TR1 ... and yet level 4 at Worlds. On the TR2 they never got above a level 2 internationally ... and yet a level 4 at Worlds.

 

[aftershocks]

... also are you or are you not A COMMUNIST lol

Or, a member of the Russian mafia? Or a former cheating Russian judge?

My ranking would have been: 1. P/C, 2. S/K, 3. S/B, 4. G/F, 5. Weapo, 6. C/B, 7. H/D, 8. G/P

Uh huh. With what scores? Are you a former judge? Or just a fan with unavoidable biases and preferences?

 

[oleada]

Uh huh. With what scores? Are you a former judge? Or just a fan with unavoidable biases and preferences?

So to be clear, the only acceptable biases are the ones you agree with? Do all posters have to disclose their personal background before they post?

@illyria made a technically savvy post and I appreciated her commentary.

Personally, I am not the most technically informed poster when it comes to ice dance, so I have to say, based on my limited knowledge and enjoyment:

I agree with the top 2. P/C are so good they’re almost an entirely different sport. S/K’s footwork sequence is insanely good and they skated extremely well.

I thought the Italians were under marked and would have had them 3rd. I would have had S/K 4th. I love Maddie and Zach but they had visible twizzle issues and their program is on the whole, not great. I thought Chock/Bates suffered in comparison by going after the Italians.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ I'm simply honest about my reaction to the scoring. I am honest also about not having any expertise in ice dance, aside from having watched the entire sport for too many years to count. But that doesn't make me an expert on the intricacies of ice dance, although I can detect good skating skills and above average performance value overall. As I said before, there's really not a lot separating most of the top teams. Even Hawayek/Baker had a great skate, but as the third U.S. team, they were slotted into a particular position the judges felt reasonable for them.

There are obviously problems with the scoring in figure skating across disciplines, and especially inconsistencies abound with the differing technical panels from event-to-event. I appreciate expert commentary and well-articulated points of view from unbiased observers. That's why I asked about @illyria's background. My additional post was a tongue-in-cheek response to @Michalle, and a further query for @illyria. It's quite obvious that it's difficult for preferences of observers and judges not to enter into overall assessments and placements. Plus the judges' political affiliations are always in conflict with the judging process.

I guess on the upside no one has been sunk or dumped... just tied??

As far as I can see, it's mainly Russians who end up having their scores suddenly rise to astronomical levels in short periods of time. Lipnitskaya and other young Russian ladies' PCS rose very quickly and suspiciously in the lead-up to the Sochi Olympics, etc. This season is another case for SinKats and StepBuk. While I enjoy watching both teams, the way their scores have been so quickly pushed up this season smacks of RusFed politics, instead of being an accurate measure of their improvements.

When PapCiz skyrocketed in the marks, that was between two seasons, and after they'd moved to Gadbois with Romain, and Dubreuil/Lauzon had helped administer some magic to an already enormously talented and creative team. Right now, the judging panel's quid-pro-quo appears to be that they will leave P/C as 'untouchables' at least for now. There's no telling what the machinations will be over the next several seasons for maneuvering the Russian teams in the lead-up to 2022 Olympics.

In its competitive structure and political judging practices, the sport of figure skating is so outdated and antiquated. The skaters' depth of talent far outweighs competitive opportunities and judging fairness.

 

[yurokis40]

As far as I can see, it's mainly Russians who end up having their scores suddenly rise to astronomical levels in short periods of time. Lipnitskaya and other young Russian ladies' PCS rose very quickly and suspiciously in the lead-up to the Sochi Olympics, etc. This season is another case for SinKats and StepBuk. While I enjoy watching both teams, the way their scores have been so quickly pushed up this season smacks of RusFed politics, instead of being an accurate measure of their improvements.

When PapCiz skyrocketed in the marks, that was between two seasons, and after they'd moved to Gadbois with Romain, and Dubreuil/Lauzon had helped administer some magic to an already enormously talented and creative team. Right now, the judging panel's quid-pro-quo appears to be that they will leave P/C as 'untouchables' at least for now. There's no telling what the machinations will be over the next several seasons for maneuvering the Russian teams in the lead-up to 2022 Olympics.

In its competitive structure and political judging practices, the sport of figure skating is so outdated and antiquated. The skaters' depth of talent is far outweighing competitive opportunities and judging fairness.

the Russians skated very well in the RD, especially sinkats I tend to agree on step and bukin her skating skills and jarring posture imo they should not yet be a top 5 team and they should have been penalized since there rd is not a tango and their fd is a poor man's ripoff of H&D fd from last year.

 

[Bigbird]

Still in utter disbelief that 12 teams got perfect level 4s for the tango romantica

Levels don't mean a thing peeps this competition will be decided on GOEs people. Ultimately it's the GOEs, haha. I don't know how or why we take all this so seriously. Really the real pleasure in watching the RDs this morning was the out of this world performance that P/C produced today Enjoy.#ubermodebeforeFD

 

[mjb52]

OTOH, you could see it as the young Russian teams having been held down in the past few years b/c of a bias toward NA teams in that time period which is no longer as strong in the absence of V/M and D/W. In particular with Katsalapov is there anyone who seriously wants to argue that he hasn't been underperforming in relation to his actual talent post-Sochi and all the turmoil over his split from Elena? When James/Cipres suddenly rose in this season was it shocking or just a team with great potential finally getting it together? Why should it be different for S/K? And as for S/B, one can hardly view their last season as even remotely typical or representative of a normal year for an ice dancing team.

 

[VGThuy]

To be honest all of the top 8 were all very overscored. It was an extremely generous tech panel, but not surprising since controller is good friends with Gadbois, Japanese tech specialist was same specialist as 2016 Worlds which had lots of level 4s, and assistant tech specialist is Russian and friends with Morozov.

H/D, C/B, and Weapo were actually the most overscored to me and should have been behind G/F, who had an extremely strong Tango Romantica pattern, clearly hit all the edges, and would have gotten level 4 under any panel imo. H/D nearly collided on the twizzles and their GOE was too high. They were also very nervous performance wise. And all level 4s after the low levels they've been getting all season is interesting. I don't think Madi H should have been given TR 1, KP 1 because her RBI looked flat. C/B I found level 4 on the 2nd pattern very generous. Madi Chock had the worst RFO-Three Turn of the night and yes on TR 2, KP 1 was very questionable. That exit edge was not good at all. Weapo's GOE and levels on the twizzles were generous as well. Kaitlyn pirouette the forward outside twizzle, but still got level 4 instead of level 3.

S/K content and choreography wise have the strongest RD in the world. I am not a fan of them as people, but their RD is incredible. They skate very close together in the tango romantica, they have very good edge quality, Vika has become very strong skating skills wise this season, their gancho work is insane, and that midline stsq is super complex with 6 difficult steps/turns instead of 5, the clapping matched to the music, and the gancho work.

S/B are great performers and crowd favorites. They also had the best twizzles (along with G/F) and the best RD lift of all the teams. The curve lift has complex entry, difficult position from both partners, matches the music, and difficult exit. They also did their best job all season on the tango romantica pattern. All of the key points, especially in pattern 2 looked good.

My ranking would have been: 1. P/C, 2. S/K, 3. S/B, 4. G/F, 5. Weapo, 6. C/B, 7. H/D, 8. G/P

Do me a favor and please post more. You obviously have a lot of knowledge about ice dance and I'd love to read your posts more often.

Also, I don't really think Step/Buk and SinKats really had a meteoric rise. They've been skating for a long butt time as seniors and often had middling results as they were wading through a congested crowd, but people knew if they would keep training and growing they'd have the goods to be competitive for medals, especially in a post-Olympic turnover season like this.

 

[aftershocks]

the Russians skated very well in the RD, especially sinkats I tend to agree on step and bukin her skating skills and jarring posture imo they should not yet be a top 5 team and they should have been penalized since there rd is not a tango and their fd is a poor man's ripoff of H&D fd from last year.

Fair enough. I thought SinKats skated very well too, but their score is suspicious. I have to go back and look at their Euros RD performance to see what happened there. They were only at 70+ in the RD at Euros. Did they make a mistake, or was the scoring partly a result of a different tech panel. Obviously, S/K placed better overall at Euros. At GPF, SinKats were at 77+ in the RD. To me, I just do not see them jumping from a 77+ seasons best to 83.94 in a matter of months.

And as much as Step/Buk are entertaining and fun to watch, they actually are not well matched physically. Their personalities and energies mesh well, so the physical variances can be overrided by their appeal. However, as you fairly point out, they have some drawbacks. They simply should not be positioned where they were positioned in the RD. Even Buk's eyes were popping out of his head (in delight) at their RD score!

There has previously been comments among fans this season about the obvious push up the ladder for the Russian teams, especially now that the Shibs are MIA (and probably unlikely to return to this political mashfest), and H/D are perceived to be vunerable, even though their edge quality and performance chops far outweigh a lot of teams. C/B coming back so much improved, and with great programs has apparently slightly unnerved H/D. So the 4CCs result is being used to keep both top U.S. teams off the podium.

The other comments that have abounded this season about the Russians, is the fact that RusFed has found it difficult to decide which team to push. TAT is politically behind StepBuk, and obviously Zhulin is behind his SinKats. But now it looks as if the dilemma has been solved by getting the right panel to help put both Russian teams on the podium.

As much as I liked B/S on a personal level, their talent was never at the highest level, so RusFed must be happy they at least have viably talented teams to push. Too bad that Kats with Ilinyh would have already been pulling down medals -- they were so good together. While Sinitsina has improved, she reminds me of some of the Russian ice dance divas of old, and not in a good way (albeit she and Kats have worked hard and never given up, which is admirable).

I don't get NBCSN, so I'd love to hear what the expert ice dance commentators had to say about the ice dance judging.

 

[Colonel Green]

Fair enough. I thought SinKats skated very well too, but their score is suspicious. I have to go back and look at their Euros RD performance to see what happened there. They were only at 70+ in the RD at Euros. Did they make a mistake, or was the scoring partly a result of a different tech panel.

They both fell in the rhythm dance at Euros. That score isn't representative of their scoring potential.

 

[oleada]

Fair enough. I thought SinKats skated very well too, but their score is suspicious. I have to go back and look at their Euros RD performance to see what happened there. They were only at 70+ in the RD at Euros. Did they make a mistake, or was the scoring partly a result of a different tech panel. Obviously, S/K placed better overall at Euros. At GPF, SinKats were at 77+ in the RD. To me, I just do not see them jumping from a 77+ seasons best to 83.94 in a matter of months.

They both fell on the twizzles. Clearly, they're going to score higher here, with an excellent performance. They also had a L4 step sequence vs Level 3 at Europeans.

It's been clear that this was an extremely generous panel. Every single team with a L4 pattern and every team in the top 8 had a season's best.

ETA: Actually every team in the top 10 had a SB's and I'm too lazy to check beyond that.

 

[muffinplus]

I am American. I am just a fan that knows steps, turns, pattern dances, and the technical handbook well.

Also I am not an authority on anything. I am just giving my opinion and explanation of the RD today. And you asked for opinions about it.

Of course everyone should learn steps, turns, pattern dances, key points, etc. to help form their own opinions and my opinion shouldn't be taken as a fact.

I don't see individual program videos online yet, but here are some examples of what I was talking about.

Madi Chock RFO-Three Turn exit: https://66.media.tumblr.com/6754f135dc548f21c5d04070a8d7bf03/tumblr_pordgs9LiL1u604cmo1_1280.png

This RBI exit should be a clear right back inside edge, but it is flat. This is part of lady step 29, which is included in section 2, key point 1.

It would be better to see in motion, but here is screenshot of how close and out of sync H/D got on the 2nd set of their twizzles
https://66.media.tumblr.com/02011a4d2052cc4f905cdd9332776ee2/tumblr_pordgs9LiL1u604cmo2_1280.png

I'm curious how long you've studied the rulebook for and watched videos?

As a fan with not so high technical knowledge ( not a skater) I find it so difficult to watch who is on what edge at what time because it all happens so fast and frankly detracts from my enjoyment. Especially live...

Without really having technical knowledge of the exact pattern though it was visible that Guignard and Fabbri always skated extremely precisely in thir RD and on deep edges. This is probably armchair commentary since I cannot actually identify when they don't hit... But that's just somethinhg that strikes you when watching them vs say Chock/Bates or Stepanova/Bukin

 

[aftershocks]

Note to the ice dancers when you have a panel stacked against you, you cannot be tight or even give them an inch.

Hmmm, surely that's easier said than done. The very fact that the tech panel is not in one's favor can lead to nerves and tightness. I don't know how any of them do what they do under such pressure.

 

[aftershocks]

Actually every team in the top 10 had a SB's and I'm too lazy to check beyond that.

I checked a little. Seemingly, SinKats is gonna be one of the teams with the highest point value jump. I thought the judges were being somewhat generous but careful with the scoring until SinKats! There are some great comments by fans here generally. But I don't see many factoring in the politics, which most fans I guess seem to shrug shoulders about since politics is so endemic in this sport.

SinKats have worked hard to improve, especially technically. I personally think S/B have more shizz and pizzazz (albeit with tech and physicality drawbacks), while SinKats lack some real spark between them like Kats had with Ilinyh. Still, on merit and even politically, there's no way both RusFed teams should make the podium. That's wrong.

I also do feel for G/F because they were very good in the RD -- they just have a bit of physical disparity drawbacks, but I've always loved watching them perform. It's really difficult to see where they should be slotted in though with so many great teams competing. Again, the problem is the judging and competitive structure have not kept up with how much athletes have improved and pushed the sport forward technically and aesthetically. The politics-based scoring gives me a headache.

 

[oleada]

I'm curious how long you've studied the rulebook for and watched videos?

As a fan with( not a skater) I find it so difficult to watch who is on what edge at what time because it all happens so fast and frankly detracts from enjoyment. Especially live

Without really having technical knowledge though it was visible that Guignard and Fabbri always skated extremely precisely in thir RD and on deep edges. This is probably armchair commentary since I cannot actually identify when they don't hit... But that's just somethinhg that strikes you when watching them vs say Chock/Bates or Stepanova/Bukin

I just wanted to share that I really appreciate your live impressions that you've posted throughout Worlds. Thank you for doing that!

 

[muffinplus]

I just wanted to share that I really appreciate your live impressions that you've posted throughout Worlds. Thank you for doing that!

Haha you are welcome..I don't think I've really said anything too insightful or controversial that goes against the grain I think a lot of people here agree that the Italians are underscored

 

[Bigbird]

Hmmm, surely that's easier said than done. The very fact that the tech panel is not in one's favor can lead to nerves and tightness. I don't know how any of them do what they do under such pressure.

Actually I've seen Chock and Bates and the Shib Sibs do that very same thing, but it takes a certain head space. You see all this changing of RD and FD though the season especially for HD was a waste of energy. They should have just spent the extra time to put together two programs they are proud of and work those. The competition is too tight and let's face it there's only one P/C.

 

[aftershocks]

Actually I've seen Chock and Bates and the Shib Sibs do that very same thing, but it takes a certain head space. You see all this changing of RD and FD though the season especially for HD was a waste of energy. They should have just spent the extra time to put together two programs they are proud of and work those. The competition is too tight and let's face it there's only one P/C.

Eh, I think H/D actually needed to take a break and come back more refreshed. They are a bit battle-weary in my opinion. But that has mainly showed in their lack of program inspiration for this season. However, I commend them for working so hard to improve their RD and their Romeo&Juliet FD from what they were like at the start of the season. They've risen to the task all season long, just having that nervous misstep at 4CCs with C/B and W/P (who were out during the GP) now breathing down their necks. Maddie & Zach are still the bomb with their edqe quality, spark and chemistry. The fact they didn't take a break is because they wanted to push with the momentum they'd achieved for staying on top of this talent heavy discipline.

I think it's okay that H/D stuck with R&J and tried to improve it. They can reserve their best creative energies for the Olympic season, and the coming seasons that edge toward Beijing. I think some of the critiques against H/D's current FD are OTT. They didn't need to totally scrap their FD, and obviously they are comfortable with it, regardless of some fans seemingly not having the same comfort level.

 

[aftershocks]

They both fell in the rhythm dance at Euros. That score isn't representative of their scoring potential.

Right, I figured S/K made a mistake at Euros in the RD, since they placed higher overall. The point is their season's best jump from 77+ to 83.94 in the RD is more than a bit much.

 

[starrynight]

Levels don't mean a thing peeps this competition will be decided on GOEs people. Ultimately it's the GOEs, haha. I don't know how or why we take all this so seriously. Really the real pleasure in watching the RDs this morning was the out of this world performance that P/C produced today Enjoy.#ubermodebeforeFD

I take it seriously because I do care that the judging is done with some level of transparency. I expect that if the judging shenanigans eventually starts impacting on P/C people might start caring. This might be a point in time worth remembering when 2022 rolls around.

 

[oleada]

All the other top European teams (P/C, G/F, S/B) got SB at Europeans. Scores rise through the season. Obviously, given their errors, Sinitisina/Katsapalov Perhaps with a clean skate at Europeans, their SB rise here would not have been as dramatic.

I also agree that Stepanova/Bukin and Sinitsina/Katsalapov have hardly had their scores rise overnight. They've been around for a while.

 

[Peepsquick]

I take it seriously because I do care that the judging is done with some level of transparency. I expect that if the judging shenanigans eventually starts impacting on P/C people might start caring. This might be a point in time worth remembering when 2022 rolls around.

Oh, burn!

 

[aftershocks]

I think Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen are well on their way toward passing Hawayek/Baker in the standings — probably not here, but next season. The PCS gap from 4CC is already closing rapidly.

Indeed F-B/S have made a strong impact, and good for them! However, H/B are a very strong team, with Kaitlin much stronger and improved since the move to Gadbois. As usual, Jean-Luc is the bomb. He has skating skills to die-for. And I'm done with all the snarky critiques about Jean-Luc's size. We all have to work with what we've got! And boy, does he!

H/B edged F-B/S in the RD for good reason. And H/B actually skated well enough to have been scored higher, with all of the high scores being handed out. It's just the politics that begins to kick in when there are so many good teams to slot into positions. I fear G/P and G/F are gonna be lost in the mix forever at the big games (Worlds & Olympics) despite their talent, because the sport's competitive structure is so outdated. Everyone sighs and shrugs their shoulders and concedes they have to work with the system that's in place. If only they could ferret out the conflicting politics and inherent biases.

I point fingers at RusFed because their maneuvering is and has historically been so patently obvious.

Perhaps with a clean skate at Europeans, their SB rise here would not have been as dramatic.

The scoring rise at Worlds has zip to do with S/K's scores at Euros, since they made a mistake in the RD at Euros. The rise is about their season's best 77+ at GPF making such a huge leap to 83.94+ podium territory at Worlds. No one else among the top teams, aside from P/C and Step/Buk has made such a scoring leap this season. G/P got an 80+ season's best in the RD, but it means little for their overall placement with all of the even higher scoring teams ahead of them.

It's as if the judging panel decided to throw out some candy liberally, so as to soften the blow of RusFed teams getting the podium-level goodies (which is also to ensure a third Russian team makes Worlds in the coming seasons). Not that it won't be cool to see Zahorski/Guerreiro in the mix at Worlds next season. There are simply too many good teams for the way the competitive structure and scoring is set up.