The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[Bigbird]

I take it seriously because I do care that the judging is done with some level of transparency. I expect that if the judging shenanigans eventually starts impacting on P/C people might start caring. This might be a point in time worth remembering when 2022 rolls around.

But this is ice dance love, we're just one major scandal away from not really being an Olympic sport.

 

[aftershocks]

I agree with the top 2. P/C are so good they’re almost an entirely different sport. S/K’s footwork sequence is insanely good and they skated extremely well.

I thought the Italians were under marked and would have had them 3rd. I would have had S/K 4th.

Since you agree with the top two placements, I suppose you mean you would have S/B in 4th.

I thought Chock/Bates suffered in comparison by going after the Italians.

Meaning what exactly? Did Maddie & Evan say they were 'going after the Italians,' like on a hunting spree or something?

I also agree that Stepanova/Bukin and Sinitsina/Katsalapov have hardly had their scores rise overnight. They've been around for a while.

Heh! Mostly this season m'dear, not 'overnight.' Being 'around for awhile' does not equate to deserving high scores over teams who are better a la the long-lasting B/S who are finally, dearly departed.

Why not stop acting as if RusFed politics is not involved in the scoring. I for one can separate S/K's and S/B's actual improvements from their dramatic scoring rise, which began for S/B over the past couple of seasons. S/B are a beloved team among fans because they have personality (which some Russian skaters lack on the ice) and S/B are fun to watch. But still, their level of scoring rise has more to do with political maneuvering than with their level of improvement.

As I said earlier, at least S/K and S/B do have more talent than B/S, which I suppose makes the excuses for their scoring rise more palatable in certain quarters.


BTW, I'm glad to see that other fans are as confused about the scores for the Polish team as I am. They are okay, but not that level of good. I mean come on, even the Brit team of Fear/Gibson are more interesting and entertaining.

Oh well, scores for the Poles are another prevalent example of political scoring. A whole book could be written about the politics of figure skating judging.

If ice dance is an Olympic sport, so should DanceSport be an Olympic sport.

 

[oleada]

Meaning what exactly? Did Maddie & Evan say they were 'going after the Italians,' like on a hunting spree or something?

It's in reference to the starting order. Chock/Bates skated right after Guignard/Fabbri. I thought Guignard/Fabbri had an incredibly smooth performance, and their basic skating and edge quality really shone. By comparison, Chock/Bates, skating right after, did not look as smooth, nor as effortless. They just looked more labored, and their program didn't have the spark it had at 4CC. JMO watching it.

 

[Bigbird]

It's in reference to the starting order. Chock/Bates skated right after Guignard/Fabbri. I thought Guignard/Fabbri had an incredibly smooth performance, and their basic skating and edge quality really shone. By comparison, Chock/Bates, skating right after, did not look as smooth, nor as effortless. They just looked more labored, and their program didn't have the spark it had at 4CC. JMO watching it.

For my personal taste Chock spends just way too much time in the air. All she needs now is a cape and her invisible jet , the program looks ridiculous. As for H/D they would have been closer to P/C if they just kept their original RD. It was difficult yes, but oh so sophisticated. The only program that needed any revision was the FD. But as many have said or hinted at here they seem mentally spent this year as some of their decisions just make absolutely no sense.

 

[aftershocks]

It's in reference to the starting order. Chock/Bates skated right after Guignard/Fabbri. I thought Guignard/Fabbri had an incredibly smooth performance, and their basic skating and edge quality really shone. By comparison, Chock/Bates, skating right after, did not look as smooth, nor as effortless. They just looked more labored, and their program didn't have the spark it had at 4CC. JMO watching it.

Okay, thanks for explaining your phraseology. Just off the top of my head recall, I do agree that both C/B and H/D were not quite as sharp and sparkling in the RD at Worlds as they've been on other occasions this season. That's all the more why I commend both teams for getting through this tough test as well as they did. Neither team were horrid either, so the nitpicking is just that, particularly when it's not always applied evenly. C/B and H/D are aware of the politiking they are up against, as well as the depth of talent they are up against. I think 4CCs results were emotionally difficult and awkward for both teams, despite C/B obviously being excited to win gold at 4CCs, after everything they've been through these past seasons. C/B are so grateful for all that Dubreuil/Lauzon and Team Gadbois have done for them.

There's just always so much American skater hating that goes on here, across disciplines, among fans of every stripe, including from U.S. fans.

 

[illyria]

Sadly, G/F, G/P, C/B, Weapo did not give their best free dance performances today. G/F had a level 3 rotational lift and very awkward exit there. G/P and Weapo both had twizzle troubles. C/B were very slow in their FD and did not project to the crowd as well as they could have. I was really rooting for G/F, who have been technically excellent all season and G/P who have a great free dance.

I found the technical panel very lenient again today. The fluctuating tech scores for H/B and H/D were very messy... It was very lenient to not count Jean Luc's exit from the choreographic knee slide a fall and give a fall deduction + invalidated element. The GOE range ended up being from +1 to +5. I thought FB/S should have been ahead of H/B.

H/D's tech you could see changing from 68 to 61 and then shot up to 70. In real time Zach's one foot step sequence was called a level 3 and their straight line lift was called a level 3, but both were raised to level 4 and H/D ended up with all level 4s. I don't understand how Zach's one foot step sequence could be raised to level 4 because in real time his forward inside edge was very flat. I will have to check the lift features for the straight line lift. The stationary lift... I couldn't believe the level or the GOE and I assume was the reason for the fluctuating TES. It got all +4 and +5s in GOE, which I can't understand since it was much slower in rotation than usual and it still traveled. I also was not a fan of the new ending with the dramatic and sudden Kissing You music cut. I think a medal was generous for them considering their RD twizzles and FD stationary lift and with a different panel may not have happened.

I prefer P/C's original stationary lift in the FD, but congrats to them on another world title. Gui seems to be in better form than the rest of the season where imo his skating skills and posture had declined a bit due to injury. I did prefer the Euros performance of their FD though in terms elements and interpretation.

S/K skated well in both the RD and FD. I much prefer their RD to their FD though, which I am not a fan of choreographically.

S/B have a great free dance that is a big crowd pleaser and has great choreographic elements, which is a big part of the new scoring system now that there are 3 choreographic elements in the FD. Their choreographic spinning movement and choreographic twizzles are truly excellent. It's sad they missed it a medal, but I'm glad they skated well in both programs.

 

[muffinplus]

It's unfortunate but Piper/Paul's FD strangely....felt a bit flat to me.

The Brits had amazing energy and were the best of the field IMO at doing an upbeat program.. I feel like like Lauriault/Legac for example didn't compare well

 

[muffinplus]

I missed what happened with Jean-Luc's exit out of the choreo slide? Why would it be counted as a fall

 

[cocotaffy]

G/F, C/B and G/P didn't skate at their best. G/F and G/P made mistakes even though they had great FD performances all year. Bad timing. W/P were OK but at this point they look past their prime.
I though S/B gave a decent performance but I just can't with her not being able to ramp up her energy and being dragged by him during the step sequence. If you watch carefully she looks like she's struggling whenever it isn't posing, twizzling, which they are both excellent at for sure, and the one foot sequence was OK. But as soon as they need to skate in hold, it gets messy for her.
S/K had a very good performance again, gave their all and are a deserving silver medal imo but I'd like a less overly dramatic program next year.
H/D started very tense and that stationary lift was again dangerously not stable. They rallied up afterwards with a much more secure performance but I felt they were a tad overscored here.
The ripped off team of the day was the Danadians, they put a wonderful performance, seamless and full of character with a very interesting program. They should have been way ahead of Hawayek/Baker whose skate was not as good as earlier in the season, very tight and those lifts He needs to do something about his frame. Maybe he should tag along with Donohue to pump up some iron because as it is, he looks so frail, he makes her look huge when I'm sure she is not. Plus, it is obvious he's struggling to keep his balance during the lifts.

 

[taz'smum]

Rankings after the June re-ratings

1. Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE 4098,11
2. Gabriella PAPADAKIS / Guillaume CIZERON 34902
3. Alexandra STEPANOVA / Ivan BUKIN 3276,63
4. Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI 3439,54
5. Victoria SINITSINA / Nikita KATSALAPOV 3061,35
6. Piper GILLES / Paul POIRIER 3003,26
7. Kaitlin HAWAYEK / Jean-Luc BAKER 2757,97
8. Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE 2412,88
9. Natalia KALISZEK / Maksym SPODYRIEV 2308,29
10. Shiyue WANG / Xinyu LIU 2279,110
11. Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES 2260,411
12. Tiffani ZAGORSKI / Jonathan GUERREIRO 2220,12
13. Olivia SMART / Adrian DIAZ2 1381,3
14. Lorraine MCNAMARA / Quinn CARPENTER 2131,814
15. Marie-Jade LAURIAULT / Romain LE GAC 2110,415
16. Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS 1968,816
17. Sara HURTADO / Kirill KHALIAVIN 1950,717
18. Carolane SOUCISSE / Shane FIRUS 1885,218
19. Christina CARREIRA / Anthony PONOMARENKO 1866,519
20. Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR 183420
21. Lilah FEAR / Lewis GIBSON 1799,521
22. Sofia SHEVCHENKO / Igor EREMENKO 1588,122
23. Misato KOMATSUBARA / Tim KOLETO 1584,923
24. Arina USHAKOVA / Maxim NEKRASOV 1512,524

 

[her grace]

It was an unpredictable, wild season of ice dance!

undisputed #1: Papadakis/Cizeron
They are the best. It is so.

breakthrough team: Sinitsina/Katsalapov
Not a perfect season with the Euros mishaps, but they have become much more stable. She is greatly improved and they look like a team. It's not all him anymore. Very impressive RD and okay FD.

Best-of-the-non-power-countries team: Guignard/Fabbri
They had to earn everything they got this season, not being from a power country. What an amazing season they had with a GPF medal and Euros medal. Woefully robbed in the SD at worlds. They're going to have to continue to over-earn their medals and don't know if a world one will ever happen, but they did make themselves contenders this year. Very proud of them.

"almost there" kids: Gilles/Poirier
I keep waiting for them to move up into the upper echelon. W/P stand firmly in their way, and they do seem to be at a slightly lower technical level than the very best teams. Still the most creative team out there. Their 4CC medal was a nice reward for their hard work this season.

Scare-me-half-to-death award: Hubbell/Donohue
Love this team, but their packaging this year was just off. All those program changes throughout the season meant that the programs never really developed like they can when a team starts with a winning program. Please get this right next year!

Reinvention award: Chock/Bates
They look like a completely new team. He is actually integrated into the choreography and they seem happy and refreshed. Wonderful for them to get a 4CC title. Interested to see where the judges will rank them next season when they compete the GP, too.

The enigmas: Weaver/Poje
I do wonder how long this team will keep competing. They are starting to show signs of age IMO, and their results are good, but not likely to reach above the heights they've already reached. That said, their fate can depend on the composition of the panel so there is still hope. Like C/B, it will be interesting to see what judges do with them when they compete a full season.

Comeback kids: Stepanova/Bukin
Great to see them come back from their Olympic disappointment so well. They've become a force and could medal at the highest levels. IMO she is one of the weakest partners at the top; if they can help her become stronger (much like Sinitsina this year), the sky's the limit!

 

[Bigbird]

We've got to have another special pair that can compete with P/C soon, last nights competition left me wanting for more. Hopefully though as the quad progresses the quality of ice dancing will also skyrocket.

Sidenote: I don't know if anything can really be done to help Stepanova.

 

[Colonel Green]

breakthrough team: Sinitsina/Katsalapov
Not a perfect season with the Euros mishaps, but they have become much more stable. She is greatly improved and they look like a team. It's not all him anymore. Very impressive RD and okay FD.

Runner-up for this would be Fear/Gibson, who didn't even make the free dance in their first two trips to Worlds and finished thirteenth here, and with one of the most talked-about programs of the season. And but for Lewis' twizzle trouble in the rhythm dance, they'd have been at least twelfth. They've leapfrogged a lot of the middle-ranked teams in a year's time.

The enigmas: Weaver/Poje
I do wonder how long this team will keep competing. They are starting to show signs of age IMO, and their results are good, but not likely to reach above the heights they've already reached. That said, their fate can depend on the composition of the panel so there is still hope. Like C/B, it will be interesting to see what judges do with them when they compete a full season.

They've said they're taking it year-by-year. I'm half-expecting they're going to publicly announce that 2019-20 will be their last season and do everything to generate momentum for a "one for the road" medal at Montreal Worlds, where they're also Canada's best medal prospect.

 

[RoseRed]

Rankings after the June re-ratings

1. Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE 4098,11
2. Gabriella PAPADAKIS / Guillaume CIZERON 34902
3. Alexandra STEPANOVA / Ivan BUKIN 3276,63
4. Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI 3439,54
5. Victoria SINITSINA / Nikita KATSALAPOV 3061,35
6. Piper GILLES / Paul POIRIER 3003,26
7. Kaitlin HAWAYEK / Jean-Luc BAKER 2757,97
8. Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE 2412,88
9. Natalia KALISZEK / Maksym SPODYRIEV 2308,29
10. Shiyue WANG / Xinyu LIU 2279,110
11. Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES 2260,411
12. Tiffani ZAGORSKI / Jonathan GUERREIRO 2220,12
13. Olivia SMART / Adrian DIAZ2 1381,3
14. Lorraine MCNAMARA / Quinn CARPENTER 2131,814
15. Marie-Jade LAURIAULT / Romain LE GAC 2110,415
16. Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS 1968,816
17. Sara HURTADO / Kirill KHALIAVIN 1950,717
18. Carolane SOUCISSE / Shane FIRUS 1885,218
19. Christina CARREIRA / Anthony PONOMARENKO 1866,519
20. Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR 183420
21. Lilah FEAR / Lewis GIBSON 1799,521
22. Sofia SHEVCHENKO / Igor EREMENKO 1588,122
23. Misato KOMATSUBARA / Tim KOLETO 1584,923
24. Arina USHAKOVA / Maxim NEKRASOV 1512,524

G/F should be ahead of S/B.

ETA: And you've left off Lajoie/Lagha. They should be 22nd I think.

Nice avatar.

 

[Colonel Green]

Rankings after the June re-ratings

1. Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE 4098,11
2. Gabriella PAPADAKIS / Guillaume CIZERON 34902

Kind of amazing that one Grand Prix gold and the Grand Prix Final is enough to keep Hubbell/Donohue ahead of Papadakis/Cizeron even though the latter's results from the previous two seasons are far, far superior and they won Worlds again this year, along with Europeans when H/D didn't even make the podium at Four Continents.

 

[starrynight]

Also honorable mention to Weaver/Poje for now being the most consistent team in the history of ice dance since it became Olympic eligible.

They have placed in the top 5 for nine consecutive Worlds, which no other team has achieved.

 

[Wyliefan]

Kind of amazing that one Grand Prix gold and the Grand Prix Final is enough to keep Hubbell/Donohue ahead of Papadakis/Cizeron even though the latter's results from the previous two seasons are far, far superior and they won Worlds again this year, along with Europeans when H/D didn't even make the podium at Four Continents.

I don't understand how this stuff works at all. I'm just grateful we have people who do and can keep track of them for us!

 

[thvu]

ISU Ice Dance Coach's Meeting has been posted! Just under 2 hours long. Get at it Ice Dance nerds!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKPv2koFT_Q

 

[Colonel Green]

Because it's never too early: preliminary thoughts on next season's Grand Prix seeding:

First bracket

1. Papadakis/Cizeron - IdF (obviously); probably NHK since they lost to V/M two years ago and didn't get to go this year, plus, it's Japan, fun times.

2. Sinitsina/Katsalapov - Rostelecom (obviously); not sure if they go back to SCI where there's a solid home team but also bigger crowds or just take CoC for an easy win.

3. Hubbell/Donohue - SkAm (obviously); whichever of SCI/CoC the Russians don't want.

Second bracket

4. Stepanova/Bukin - When a host federation has a dance team in each of the top two brackets, I generally think it makes sense to pursue a doubling-up strategy and have both teams at the home event (so Rostelecom), because that's nice for the home crowd, you insure yourself against mistakes, S/B aren't going to beat P/C, and wouldn't be favoured against H/D either based on this season. This obviously also depends a bit on the draw order for selection, which we can't know in advance.

5. Weaver/Poje - SCI (obviously); not sure about their second event.

6. Chock/Bates - despite what I wrote above about the desirability of doubling up, there's one exception to that, which is an unknown factor for the USFSA right now, namely, are the Shibutanis coming back, and if so, where are they going to go? So I could see these two at SkAm, I could also see the USFSA punting them elsewhere if circumstances require otherwise. Same logic applies to Hawayek/Baker, down in third.

Third bracket

Guignard/Fabbri are the only team in the top ten with no home event, so they'll pretty much go wherever the wind blows them.

Hawayek/Baker, same calculations apply as I noted above with Chock/Bates.

Skate Canada has two teams in this bracket, so there's a number of ways they could play this. Path of least resistance would of course be to just assign both teams to SCI as well, but that would mean no host spot for any of their other dance teams, so I kind of think they won't do that, particularly since both Gilles/Poirier and Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen would be strong contenders for at least the bronze medal (maybe silver, in the former case, depending on how the actual competition goes). I could see them, for instance, putting F-B/S at SCI in the hopes of taking the bronze medal and then rolling the dice that G/P can do better than bronze at one of the other events.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

Typically speaking, GOE & PCS tend to drop regardless. At least that was the result I got when I compared the three highest-scoring & highest-placing transitioning teams' scores a couple seasons ago. (Even the Shibs and Papadakis & Cizeron's GOE was limited during their debut seasons). This season such a comparison would be pointless because the range has changed between last year & this year, but we can compare the GOE for top teams that just started seniors with the GOE for the top junior teams this season--who have never defeated those transitioning senior teams.

Even at Tallinn Trophy, where scoring was more generous than on the GP, Carreira & Ponomarenko earned 0 plus 4s in the RD and 3 in the FD. Skoptcova & Aleshin, whose scores were much higher at Tallinn than elsewhere this season, earned 2 plus 4s in the RD and 8 plus 4s in the FD.

At Junior Worlds, Lajoie & Lagha earned 12 plus 4s in the RD and 24 plus 4s and 3 plus 5s in the FD.
Khudaberdieva & Nazarov earned 5 plus 4s in the RD and 8 plus 4s and 1 plus 5 in the FD.
Shevechenko & Eremenko earned 5 plus 4s and 1 plus 5 in the RD and 9 plus 4s and 3 plus 5s in the FD.
Nguyen & Kolesnik earned 10 plus 4s and 5 plus 5s in the FD.
Ushakova & Nekrasov earned 8 plus 4s and 1 plus 5 in the RD and 11 plus 4s and 1 plus 5 in the FD.

That kind of GOE just isn't given to transitioning senior teams.

I believe they were trying to push S/A in Tallinn. They had a pretty bad transition to Senior and if they didn't get points for that Senior B competition they wold be out selection for GP next year! Russia playing game as usual!

 

[Moustaffask8r]

Technical Controller Mr. David MOLINA FRA
Technical Specialist Ms. Ayako HIGASHINO JPN
Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Denis SAMOKHIN RUS

Uh oh....RUS on the tech panel. RUS is also on the 9-person judge panel.

USA and CAN have no judges. No North American on tech panel either. Hmm....

Not true, Jodi Abbott, referee is Canadian.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

Can someone please explain me the rise of Polish team? I don´t get it at all

Some people say it's all about family !!!

 

[Debbie S]

I think if the Shibs were going to come back next season, they would have already announced it. Or at least would be spending the majority of their time in a rink training, not traveling all over the world doing celebrity/non-skating activities.

(In order for them to be assigned to any competition, they have to reenter the drug testing pool 6 months (I believe) in advance. So they only have a couple weeks left to decide and they don't seem to be giving any indication they will.)

It wouldn't surprise me if C/B competed at SA (USFS did that in 2014 with them and the Shibs) but I also wouldn't be surprised to see them go elsewhere. My guess is S/B will choose IdF and NHK (more honorable to lose to the WC) unless the Russian fed really wants both teams at CoR. W/P will do SC and they likely wouldn't want to do a GP the week before, so C/B could end up at SA by default, unless S/B are feeling particularly bold.

H/D could end up doing both SA and SC again, if SinKats prefer CoC (is it easier to travel there from Moscow, vs Canada?).

 

[Ladida]

Some people say it's all about family !!!

Ok, ok
I wish they would at least came up with something interesting and not a free dance which looks like uninspired version of Zlobina/Sitnikov FD from 2012.
And stop buying costumes which look like they were on sale even on Wish.

 

[MarieM]

Some people say it's all about family !!!

Dostani. Not Family. Add a little Halina in there and you have it.

 

[Colonel Green]

The French fed must be frustrated that they can't get that third dance spot even with P/C consistently at #1. And it's not like Lauriault/Le Gac are incapable of doing it, they're just kind of permanently stuck right on the edge of where they'd need to be.

 

[puglover]

Do we know if W/P are going to tour this next fall as per last fall?

 

[VGThuy]

I think if the Shibs were going to come back next season, they would have already announced it. Or at least would be spending the majority of their time in a rink training, not traveling all over the world doing celebrity/non-skating activities.

They have been spending the majority of their time in the past month or so in L.A. working out and training...but it was for a show this week in Tokyo.

 

[Colonel Green]

Do we know if W/P are going to tour this next fall as per last fall?

They haven't said anything either way, but frankly if they're going to keep skipping the fall circuit they should probably just retire because they aren't going to be able to maintain their standing with the perception that they're half-in, half-out. Taking a break one time is entirely understandable, two years in a row is another thing.

If they want to position themselves optimally for Worlds at home, they have to do the Grand Prix.

 

[Debbie S]

I assume they will do the GP. They took off this past fall to do the Thank You Canada tour. That was something special, not an annual event.