Men's discussion thread: "... in the Olympic season everyone fights for himself"

olympic

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Thank you for this!

Nathan will either have the highest TES BV or go even with Boyang, Yuzu and Shoma if he only goes for a 4T. Normally, I would think Nathan would need a big buffer in TES but his SP is great and can draw good PCS if clean. Plus a pop in the SP is a disaster.

Vincent has the highest TES base. I feel good about him: He has had great practices and absolutely no media attention. That has gone to Nathan, Adam, Patrick and his team Gold, and Yuzu’s condition.

Patrick and Mikhail Kolyada had to skate the entire team competition. Nathan and Shoma only did the SP a week ago. Boyang and Javi are fresh. I wonder if this will have bearing
 

MAXSwagg

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The base value comparisons are pointless. A difference of 1 or even three points is nothing and given the risk of the big elements, will likely not decide anything. Certainly in the long-run, where a good FS can overcome a 10-15 point deficit in the SP, these measly differences in planned content will probably have minimal bearing.
 

shine

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The base value comparisons are pointless. A difference of 1 or even three points is nothing and given the risk of the big elements, will likely not decide anything. Certainly in the long-run, where a good FS can overcome a 10-15 point deficit in the SP, these measly differences in planned content will probably have minimal bearing.
Yes, naturally anything that doesn’t rank Hanyu first is pointless.
 

coppertop1

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Tonight had a little bit of everything. I’m happy with how Patrick skated other than the 3A. I just want him to have a great skate and leave on a high note.

Rough night for Chen. I think sometimes we forget he’s still young. He has time. The USFSA neeeds to stop counting their chickens. No one is guaranteed anything. Also a tough night for Trnaka. That fall was nasty and really took away points. Why didn’t Kolyada do a combination on the lutz?

Hanyu was brilliant. Injury? What injury? Jin, Fernández and Uno all came out swinging. And good performance by Messing in 10th.
 

aftershocks

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Rough night for Chen. I think sometimes we forget he’s still young. He has time. The USFSA neeeds to stop counting their chickens. No one is guaranteed anything...

Just because Nathan has so far bombed at Pyeongchang Olympics does not take away the fact that he completely upset the applecart in men's figure skating last season, to the point where TPTB were rattled and decided to hurry up and put into effect rules changes they were yet again contemplating re quad point values. This because they made a total mistake overvaluing quads in the aftermath of the brouhaha men's event at 2010 Vancouver Olympics.

It was more than a 'rough night for Chen,' by the way. He's never performed the way he did his last two times out. But if you're not a fan of Nathan, what happened to him is no big deal. Truthfully, the dust hasn't settled yet regarding the enormity of what Nathan wrought last season, and the resultant aftermath. Nathan upset the applecart and ever afterward he was dealing with new territory, as were his competitors. Yuzu is actually fortunate that his injury forced him to stop the grind, slow down, take stock, recuperate and put his focus on his main mission: to redeem his poor performance at the Sochi Olympics fp, and grab gold again in the process. It was the high standard Nathan set at U.S. Nationals and 4CCs last season landing 5 quads cleanly in back-to-back events that pushed all the men to up their game. So it's sad that Nathan himself collapsed under that high standard and the accumulated pressure and OTT expectations.

In the scheme of things, it's all just sport. USFS does tend to miscalculate, but that's not why Nathan faltered. It's not about USFS 'counting chickens.' :blah: And no one has ever said that a win for Nathan was guaranteed. Not even the OTT promotional ads. It is true that Nathan is a talented contender who had beaten Yuzuru Hanyu twice in close competitions, and so that generated a lot of buzz and excitement. Let's face it, a lot of people besides USFS knew Nathan was a threat for the Olympic podium, at his best. But Nathan actually hasn't been at his best all season, despite the fact he managed to eke out wins. Nathan's troubles in Pyeongchang are most likely due to a combination of things, including equipment issues, nagging physical problems, too much off-ice attention in an Olympic year for a young skater, too much switching around with the quads, too much over-reaction by ISU, NBC, sponsors, and by Nathan's competitors to the amazing feats he achieved last season. ISU overvalued quads, and young skaters responded, realizing the more quads they mastered, the greater was their opportunity to get on the podium. That in particular was the message ISU judges sent when Boyang Jin reached the podium as a newbie senior with four quads, but needing a lot of work to his skating otherwise.

No matter what happens tomorrow, it doesn't take away the fact that Nathan is an extraordinary skater. His career could have been over with injury after 2015 - 2016 season, but he came back even stronger and he made history. And ever since, he's been catapulted into an enormous amount of attention and pressure that has steadily built. He seemed to be handling it, but he's such a quiet, low-key person that maybe he was holding too much inside, and it never got fully worked out. He's young yet, but he's still very smart and very talented. We'll see what happens going forward. Whether Nathan decides to continue on, reconnoiter and build toward more accomplishments in the sport, or whether he decides to do something different with his life, he's still made an important impact.

Nathan upset the applecart in the sport to where the top complacent guys were suddenly looking over their shoulders. TPTB were rattled enough to move forward quickly with instituting yet more rules changes. If they suddenly needed in the aftermath of Nathan's feats last season, to push forward quickly with devaluing quads, then they hugely overvalued quads for all the wrong reasons post-2010 Olympics, just as I've always said. And btw, there's really no reason for them to devalue triples! But what else is new? The sport lacks leadership and common sense.

So tomorrow, it's looking like Yuzu manages to repeat a feat accomplished only by Dick Button in the history of the sport. Along with Yuzu's huge talent, his accomplishment will also be due to a lot of luck and everything panning out just right.
 
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aftershocks

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^^ Michael Christian Martinez of the Philippines also didn't make the cut, and he too was just happy to be there and skate at the Olympics. Just being there makes them Olympians, despite not being able to move on to the fp for those who didn't make the cut.

On Olympic Ice (NBC's online wrap-up), Nick McCarvel spoke to Orser before the men's short program. Orser talked again about Yuzu doing mental prep with visualizations. It immediately made me think of Brian Boitano and how he described after his gold medal win in 1988 of having worked on visualizing his fp performance. I know that visualizations are something used a lot by sports psychologists, but back in 1988 it may have been relatively new for figure skating in actual stated practice, and the fact that it worked so well for Brian B.

Probably Orser also remembers how well it worked for Brian B. ;) And that brings me to the point that hardly anyone who covers figure skating these days truly thinks about it in terms of historical perspective re how they analyze what's happening now. When historical and anecdotal events are brought up, it's usually superficial fluff, without any meaningful connections being made that can enhance our understanding of how the sport has evolved.

Another thing Orser commented about involved his usual 'throwing darts' at young skaters who can perform a lot of quads. Orser wouldn't even continue throwing out such comments if not for what Nathan achieved last year upsetting the applecart at the top of the men's standings. For too long, Yuzu and Javi were able to make mistakes (a la Patrick Chan) and still pile up unbeatable point spreads. Nathan showing that five clean quads were possible shook the rafters and had top guys all of a sudden looking over their shoulders.

Now, there's no outsized threat to the top three maintaining their podium spots. Jin Boyang is not a musical skater and his fp is not as good as his sp (although Shoma and even Javi could be in danger if they make mistakes and Jin Boyang doesn't). It would be a miracle if Kolyada was able to skate better. Everyone's focused on Nathan, but Kolyada has had a poor Olympics so far too. Aliev may or may not be able to sustain his performance level in the fp, but even if he does, I don't think the judges will give him as high PCS as the top guys. It will definitely be interesting to see if all the top guys can go clean with four quads. Javi may limit himself to three and try to rely on the PCS points he gets from judges. Possibly Yuzu may still go for four quads, but he may not have to if others make mistakes. I think the goal for everyone will be to go as clean as possible, because ironically it was Nathan Chen who showed twice last year (and at Nationals this year) that it could be done, and with five quads successfully landed too.
 
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berthesghost

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So tomorrow, it's looking like Yuzu manages to repeat a feat accomplished only by Dick Button in the history of the sport.
you mean “last accomplished by Dick” not only. Several guys have two (Brockel and Salcow come to mind) and Grafström holds the record with 3.

ETA: Shafer, not Brockle. Salchow only has 1. So, Yuzu will potentially tie Shafer and Button for second place with two back to back golds, GG still the top with 3 in a row.
 
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SmallFairy

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you mean “last accomplished by Dick” not only. Several guys have two (Brockel and Salcow come to mind) and Grafström holds the record with 3.

ETA: Shafer, not Brockle. Salchow only has 1. So, Yuzu will potentially tie Shafer and Button for second place with two back to back golds, GG still the top with 3 in a row.
Yes, that's true. I think the accomplishment will be to be the first skater since Button to win back to back. 1952, it's been a while. Would be great!
 

bardtoob

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Its because Javi's programs are "theatrical" while Yuzuru's are musical interpretation.

Uncle Dick has always gone gaga for acting on ice. He thinks it's an extra level of skating performance because you are thinking about being the character for the audience while moving across the ice rather than just thinking about your technique on the moves you are performing.
 

aftershocks

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Ha ha, I enjoy reading Dick Button's Twitter almost as much as I've enjoyed reading and re-reading his book, Push Dick's Button. I don't agree with everything Dick has to say, but I do respect his knowledge and I admire his status as figure skating's National Treasure and living legend!

Tara & Johnny could maybe learn a few things from Dick. :)

Dick seems to love Javi, admire Yuzu, respect Lori Nichol, feel for Nathan's shell shock, have few expectations for Kolyada, respect Boyang's athleticism, and tolerate Shoma... :lol:
 

aftershocks

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you mean “last accomplished by Dick” not only. Several guys have two (Brockel and Salcow come to mind) and Grafström holds the record with 3.

ETA: Shafer, not Brockle. Salchow only has 1. So, Yuzu will potentially tie Shafer and Button for second place with two back to back golds, GG still the top with 3 in a row.

Hmmm, but well Dick accomplished it during a much more difficult era, especially technically, IMHO. Although that's not to denigrate what other pioneers in the sport achieved during their time. :) I think what Dick accomplished is usually referred to as: the only male skater in the modern era to earn two back-to-back Olympic gold medals. Seriously, Boitano would have and could have (woulda coulda) had he been allowed to come back to compete in 1992 when he was healthy and still in peak form, instead of in 1994 when he was injured and past his prime.
 

shady82

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Well, I guess one can't have everything. I get Mirai and Dima at the Olympics, and Aljona and Bruno win gold. But Nathan bombs. I was really rooting for him or Fernandez for gold.

He is still the best skater in the world, but I'm not impressed with Yuzuru 'Recycled Programs' Hanyu's versatility. IMO he only had one good SP (Chopin) and two good LPs (Seimei and Hope/Legacy). His programs before then were still quite juniorish, despite his outstanding technical virtues.
 

nimi

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Yay! Javi got the bronze he lost in Sochi because of that extra 3S! I'm so relieved & happy for him! :cheer:

And kudos to Yuzu. He really is an incredibly gutsy competitor!
 

Meoima

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Yuzuru is still injured so he might not go to Milano WC

Posted by yude from golden skate forum
Yomiuri newspaper reported this morning that he started jumping quad 10 days before the competition, but it didn't mean that he was fully healed and he had to take potent medicine to calm down his pain. I was very shocked reading this but I didn't post it here because I thought it was better not to since it was just right before FS and we needed to be positive and supportive for him. And I also thought we'll get more information later from Yuzuru directly.

Yuzuru really pushed it hard for this Olympics, I hope he will rest well. Jackie Wong also quote about his injury:
https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/964753568325623808
 

nimi

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Yuzuru really pushed it hard for this Olympics, I hope he will rest well.
It seems he trained smart heading into this comp: both in practice an in comp, he only did the amount of quads he needed to do to deliver and to win. I trust he does the smart thing again and skips the Milan Worlds. And if Keiji and Mura both splat'n'pop and Japan loses the third spot, so be it. Healthy Yuzu can be there next season to help get it back.

Btw, I'm watching the earlier men now (I really needed my sleep so no, I didn't wake up at 3am) and I'm again impressed by Jun-hwan. Watching the 4CCs, I was a bit sad for June-hyoung because he missed these Olys by such a narrow margin and because I really like his Queen FS, but Jun-hwan skated really well both in team event and in this comp. He deserved to be here. Yeah there was the fall on the quad here but other than that, he did really good. And his final layback position is so lovely!
 

Sylvia

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Bumping this thread back up for @AngieNikodinovLove and for fans of the more "obscure" men at Worlds! :D
I need to find the correct thread to post what I want to say but I'm SO HAPPY there is a WORLDS in the Oly Year.. I mean CRAP, now we get to see DONOVAN of Mexico in the free skate and Harris of Great Britain?? BRING it on.. Say what you want but Worlds in an Oly Year I have ALWAYS LOVED!!!!

Holler!
Donovan Carrillo made the FS at his first Worlds! :cheer:
 

AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)

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Congrats to Canada that they have a Canadian (well, an American, tee-hee) in the final flight for free skate and it isn't Chan...

Congrats! :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:
 

nimi

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Seerek

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Bumping this thread back up for @AngieNikodinovLove and for fans of the more "obscure" men at Worlds! :D

Donovan Carrillo made the FS at his first Worlds! :cheer:

It is simply a miracle what Donovan and coach Gregorio Nunez have accomplished when you read the Mexican articles as to the limited ice time and financial (i.e. government) resources (I posted an article in the crowdfunding thread around Four Continents). Don't forget, March was a busy month since Donovan was doing both Junior and Senior Worlds (therefore, at least 3 weeks overseas).
 
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aftershocks

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Worlds 2018 redux.

The men's third group FP were stellar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB-YRTc7mPM Aliev, Tomono, Vasiljevs are standouts -- Interesting that Vasiljevs without a quad managed to place ahead of Aliev in the fp (helped in the overall standings too by performing better than Aliev in the sp; Aliev wasn't happy with his fp scores -- I agree with him); Majorov also was quite entertaining :)

Men's final group FP, aside from Nathan Chen and Keegan Messing, not quite as stellar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlAGVE4h3w

It would be fun to judge all of these performances under the new rules and see how/if it would change the standings in any significant way. Granted we can't erase 30 seconds from each performance. :p
 
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