Missing Men at the Olympics since 1984

[tony]

Question - Did JPN have only 1 spot for men in 2006? Daisuke was in Torino, but Nobunari Oda went to 06 Worlds and finished 4th.

Yes, controversial as we recall-- there was a scoring glitch which originally gave Oda the win.

RE: 2005 Worlds, I did a rewatch not that long ago and I think Takahashi was dealing with some injury. I remember the commentators questioning his grimaces a few times in the short. Not that it mattered much at that point in Daisuke's career, as he was wildly inconsistent as it was. Earlier in the season he scored just a few points more in his LP than he did in his SP at Eric Bompard. One of the most disastrous skates ever.

 

[bardtoob]

1998 - Rudy Gallindo, Andres Vlacsenko

Everyone know his story. 1996 Natl. Champ and World Bronze Medalist. Would he have had what it takes to go to Nagano and could he have beaten Michael Weiss for the spot on the US team?

Regarding Rudy, it was a "one in the hand is better than two in the bush" choice. His market value was high, given all the media attention towards "the feel good story", and:

• He was lucky at 1996 Worlds in the sense that his SP placement indicated he was set up to be screwed over relative to Urmanov and Stojko but they didn't deliver.
• It is difficult for male skaters to keep the media's attention, and he was getting as much media attention as he might have gotten if he actually medaled at the Olympics.
• He might have been injured in subsequent years leading up to the Olympics.
• He might have been beaten by, while you say Weiss, at the time people were thinking Scott Davis

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Being quadless meant being gutless!

Child please. I guess plushy was gutless in artistry

I think u think the sport is called skate jumping and not figure skating. You seem to forget the ”figure”

I imagine you must think Isabeau and Bradie and Kaori and Loena and Mariah and Karen r all gutless without the triple axel

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Arrrgggggg why did I even engage

 

[bardtoob]

1988 Sabovcik (amazing jumps) vs. Petrenko (classical style) would have been an interesting matchup. I suspect the judges would have gone for Petrenko, who very much fit the classic style and lines that were valued.

Thanks. That makes sense. ETA - I also assume USSR politik would probably have taken care of Petrenko if it was close v. Sabovcik for that medal after Fadeyev failed

I think this is a mischaracterization of Sabovcik and USSR political clout given the competition format.

Sabovcik could and did beat Orser and Boitano in compulsory figures at 1986 Worlds to earn 2nd place as well as place 4th in the SP, when he (Sabovcik) had a career ending knee injury, and if had performed similarly at the 1988 Olympics in compulsory figures and the SP then the structure of the competition, which had THREE PHASES, while healthy as well as Orser and Boitano holding the 1st and 2nd positions in the SP and LP would have prevented Petrenko from finishing ahead of Sabovcik overall if Sabovcik had outjumped Petrenko and Fedeyev had performed the same.

CF SP LP
Boitano 3 2 1 (Boitano actually placed 2nd in CF, but we inserted Sabovcik)
Orser 4 1 2 (Orser actually placed 3rd in CF, but we inserted Sabovcik)
Sabovcik 2 3 4
Petrenko 7 4 3 (Petrenko actually placed 6th in CF and 3rd in the SP, but we inserted Sabovcik)
Fedeyev 1 10 5 (Fedeyev actually placed 9th in the SP and 4th in the LP, but we inserted Sabovcik)

 

[bardtoob]

Arrrgggggg why did I even engage

Tell me about . . . I'm like hundreds of words in on a woulda, shoulda, coulda . . .

 

[bardtoob]

@olympic why didn't you list Todd Eldredge for 1994? Goodness knows only Brian Boitano could have kept Todd off the 1994 Olympic Team per the powers-that-be at USFSA.

@olympic why didn't you list Scott Davis for 1998? He was 1993 and 1994 US National Champion and Olympian, plus he was always "in control of his own destiny" after the SP at US Nationals from 1995 through 1998. Weiss always sort of straddled the final and penultimate flight at US Nationals after the SP up until 1998.

 

[caseyedwards]

Child please. I guess plushy was gutless in artistry

I think u think the sport is called skate jumping and not figure skating. You seem to forget the ”figure”

I imagine you must think Isabeau and Bradie and Kaori and Loena and Mariah and Karen r all gutless without the triple axel

Artistry is subjective. Plushenko is one of the more artistic of all time

2010 is now a total island of quadlessness! 3 Olympics before and now 3 Olympics after all mens winners did quads

No ladies is different. 2022 is an outlier

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Artistry is subjective. Plushenko is one of the more artistic of all time

all time, eh?

hope Steven Cousins, John Curry‘s relatives, Paul Wylie and Jason Brown don’t get wind of that

 

[bardtoob]

Artistry is subjective. Plushenko is one of the more artistic of all time

2010 is now a total island of quadlessness! 3 Olympics before and now 3 Olympics after all mens winners did quads

Let's say this is true, it didn't help that Plushenko was actively thumbing his nose at the scoring system. He was saying to the media he was doing no transitions and calling the system new when it had been around for 8 years.

If this is all politics, then Plushenko lost because he overplayed his hand by trying to dictate what scored well rather than listening to those that wrote the rules.

For fun, here is what the bible of figure skating, Ice Castles (1978), says about such things

https://youtu.be/TE3-e9fJMXk?t=294

 

[olympic]

@olympic why didn't you list Todd Eldredge for 1994? Goodness knows only Brian Boitano could have kept Todd off the 1994 Olympic Team per the powers-that-be at USFSA.

@olympic why didn't you list Scott Davis for 1998? He was 1993 and 1994 US National Champion and Olympian, plus he was always "in control of his own destiny" after the SP at US Nationals from 1995 through 1998. Weiss always sort of straddled the final and penultimate flight at US Nationals after the SP up until 1998.

RE Todd - I thought about Todd but since his last competition was actually Albertville, I had no idea what he looked like leading up to Lillehamer. Was he out of competition in 92/93 and 93/94? I have to dig deep into my memory but I thought 1995 Worlds was like his comeback.

Scott Davis just didn't ever seem to be steady enough to make it count. I didn't know that he was in the running several years at Nationals leading up to Nagano, but if he never delivered, that kind of answers the question of whether he would have been missed or not.

 

[olympic]

I think this is a mischaracterization of Sabovcik and USSR political clout given the competition format.

Sabovcik could and did beat Orser and Boitano in compulsory figures at 1986 Worlds to earn 2nd place as well as place 4th in the SP, when he (Sabovcik) had a career ending knee injury, and if had performed similarly at the 1988 Olympics in compulsory figures and the SP then the structure of the competition, which had THREE PHASES, while healthy as well as Orser and Boitano holding the 1st and 2nd positions in the SP and LP would have prevented Petrenko from finishing ahead of Sabovcik overall if Sabovcik had outjumped Petrenko and Fedeyev had performed the same.

CF SP LP
Boitano 3 2 1 (Boitano actually placed 2nd in CF, but we inserted Sabovcik)
Orser 4 1 2 (Orser actually placed 3rd in CF, but we inserted Sabovcik)
Sabovcik 2 3 4
Petrenko 7 4 3 (Petrenko actually placed 6th in CF and 3rd in the SP, but we inserted Sabovcik)
Fedeyev 1 10 5 (Fedeyev actually placed 9th in the SP and 4th in the LP, but we inserted Sabovcik)

Makes sense, but I guess one added wrinkle would be was Sabovcik capable of skating a clean LP. IOW, were his subpar LPs at 85 and 86 Worlds due to injury or something else?

 

[bardtoob]

RE Todd - I thought about Todd but since his last competition was actually Albertville, I had no idea what he looked like leading up to Lillehamer. Was he out of competition in 92/93 and 93/94? I have to dig deep into my memory but I thought 1995 Worlds was like his comeback.

Todd was off the Olympic Team in 1994 because he finished 3rd at US Nationals behind Brian Boitano (2nd) and Scott Davis (1st).

Todd finished 6th at 1993 US Nationals.

Scott Davis just didn't ever seem to be steady enough to make it count. I didn't know that he was in the running several years at Nationals leading up to Nagano, but if he never delivered, that kind of answers the question of whether he would have been missed or not.

The thing about it was Scott Davis was certainly more expected than Michael Weiss.

Makes sense, but I guess one added wrinkle would be was Sabovcik capable of skating a clean LP. IOW, were his subpar LPs at 85 and 86 Worlds due to injury or something else?

Sabovcik's injury was known after 1984, which Scott Hamilton mentioned during his commentary in 1986, and he did have some surgeries. However, he was behind the iron curtain and compelled by his federation to keep skating.

In a woulda, coulda, shoulda scenario, we have to assume Sabovcik was not injured if the reason he was actually not there was because he specifically retired due to injury.

 

[gkelly]

RE Todd - I thought about Todd but since his last competition was actually Albertville, I had no idea what he looked like leading up to Lillehamer. Was he out of competition in 92/93 and 93/94? I have to dig deep into my memory but I thought 1995 Worlds was like his comeback.

He wasn't at ISU championships during those years, but he was competing.

Todd Eldredge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Three firsts and a fourth at fall competitions in 1993 and 94, second at 1994 Goodwill Games.

Todd was off the Olympic Team in 1994 because he finished 3rd at US Nationals behind Brian Boitano (2nd) and Scott Davis (1st).

Fourth, actually. Aren Nielsen was third.

 

[caseyedwards]

Let's say this is true, it didn't help that Plushenko was actively thumbing his nose at the scoring system. He was saying to the media he was doing no transitions and calling the system new when it had been around for 8 years.

If this is all politics, then Plushenko lost because he overplayed his hand by trying to dictate what scored well rather than listening to those that wrote the rules.

For fun, here is what the bible of figure skating, Ice Castles (1978), says about such things

https://youtu.be/TE3-e9fJMXk?t=294

Calling it new was hardly unique to Plushenko! I believe most US commentators and reporters were calling it new as well.

Judges are supposed to judge what they see skaters do not on what they say. When American judge Inman was emailing all the other judges demanding they score Plushenko low based on what he said that was the most political thing ever revealed so close to an Olympics. Same thing when he put Plushenko in a video on bad scoring knowing he would return

But it’s true Plushenko would have been better leaving moshin and trying to get a new coach for Vancouver. Maybe getting a program choreographed by Lori Nichol and maybe trying to get coached by some IJS expert like Morozov or spiliband zueva

 

[olympic]

Todd was off the Olympic Team in 1994 because he finished 3rd at US Nationals behind Brian Boitano (2nd) and Scott Davis (1st).

Todd finished 6th at 1993 US Nationals.



The thing about it was Scott Davis was certainly more expected than Michael Weiss.



Sabovcik's injury was known after 1984, which Scott Hamilton mentioned during his commentary in 1986, and he did have some surgeries. However, he was behind the iron curtain and compelled by his federation to keep skating.

In a woulda, coulda, shoulda scenario, we have to assume Sabovcik was not injured if the reason he was actually not there was because he specifically retired due to injury.

I would have to go back to 1984 I suppose to ascertain what a healthier Sabovcik looked like and won Bronze at Sarajevo, but lost the Bronze to Fadeyev at 1984 Worlds in Ottawa, CA. Fadeyev went on to win 1985 Worlds, then collapsed at 1986 Worlds in the LP. Fadeyev was beating Sabovcik in the CF / SP segments at the time which is where Sabovcik was performing reasonably well [but I haven't seen videos, so IDK how clean Sabovcik was].

I believe in Calgary 1988, Sabovcik would have been 4th in the CF portion vs. 7th by Petrenko [6th -> 7th due to the presence of Sabovcik] which is a 1.8 difference. Petrenko was 3rd as it was in both the SP and LP, would Sabovcik placed ahead of him in one or both segments of the SP and LP? Definitely a victory. If he placed right behind Petrenko in 4th, he would have eked out a 0.4 win over Petrenko. Possible? Yes. Sabovcik was a great jumper. My big question is what if the judges were turned off enough to drop him in the 2nd mark? Any chance he finishes behind Petrenko [3rd] and Fadeyev [4th] in the LP? Petrenko had big, airy 3As [money jump for men in 1988] and a sense of style the judges universally liked. I do think he beats Sabovcik on the 2nd mark. Though, at worst he definitely stays in front Grzegorz Filipowski's 4th / 5th in the SP / LP, slotting him easily into 4th overall. One thing is that the fight for the bronze would have made for an even more intense comp already high-stakes because of the Battle of the Brians.

I wouldn't know where to place Todd because as I said, his competition history prior to Lillehamer was not meaningful enough for me to say 'wow, definite medal contender', and a 4th at 1994 Nationals didn't scream 'I'm here'

I also guess I didn't think a lot about Scott Davis because he was not really missing in competition necessarily in the years leading up to Nagano 1998. He just kept failing to deliver to even make it on the team, so for me I don't think his absence at Nagano was very notable

 

[trainingdogs82]

Sabovcik actually had a really good shot to win the 86 worlds. Especialy with Fadeev bigtime and to a lesser extent Orser blowing the long program. The judges would have favored him over Boitano at that point in time, he had won the Europeans over World Champion Fadeeva that same year, was 2nd going into the long (vs Boitano who was 4th and only placed 5th in the short program where he skated cleanly) and he only needed to be 2nd in the long over Orser (who didn't skate well) with the factored points anyway.

I do think that would have given him more momentum but really with his injury I am not sure it matters much.

Although if he could ever make a semi decent comeback from the injury the bronze in Calgary would be in reach for sure. Petrenko only won the bronze since Fadeev badly bombed both the short and long programs in Calgary, he was a total newcomer who was still gaining any name recognition and thus very beatable, despite that he was already really good. And of course Sabovcik is stronger in figures than Petrenko and should have been able to pad an early lead there if in shape.

As for Mark Mitchell I think he definitely does better than Todd's 10th place in Albertville. Although it is more likely Wylie who he would have gone in place of, and I definitely don't think he duplicates Wylie's silver or medals at all. Assuming he replaces Wylie he finishes in the 4-7 range with Urmanov, young Stojko, and badly off form Browning territory I would guess.

In Lillehammer it probably would be more of the same. I don't see him medaling for sure, but could finish anywhere in the 4-8 territory, so likely matches or betters Davis's 8th. On the other hand he was much more inconsistent by 94 than he had been around 92, so this is much less certain/likely than 92 would be.

Jeff Buttle even without a quad could have won the Olympic Gold on home ice in 2010 over Lysacek (who also didn't have a quad) if he skated nearly perfectly, but that was rare for him as he was an inconsistent skater at the best of times. More likely for him it is possible he turns in a decent competition with a few mistakes to edge out Takahashi and Lambiel (who both had a lot of mistakes, Lambiel imparticular) for the bronze, but even that would require one of his better outings as he was a hot and cold skater, and not a very stable jumper.

Galindo I think definitely had a good chance of making the 98 Olympics over Weiss, but Weiss skated quite well at the 98 Nationals, so he would have had to be pretty clean probably. Weiss had more jumping firepower and was seen by the USFSA as the future already. And some thought he should have beaten Eldredge at those Nationals, and IIRC he had a couple first place ordinals over Eldredge. Oh yeah I forgot if Galindo is at 97 worlds in place of Hollander the US almost certainly has 3 spots and all 3 of Weiss, Galindo, Eldredge should make it now. Even from his pro performances I don't see a washed up Scott Davis beating him unless he has one of his worst outings. As a recent US Champion and world medalist he would have the politically advantage over Davis for sure. I don't see him medaling in Nagano, although it is possible he could have if he has a great outing. Outside of Kulik, everyone was very beatable there, the jumper Stojko won silver without a quad (and injured) since there were so many mistakes by everyone else.

Pocker could have easily made it to 84 as Canadian #2 but no way do I see him being a medal contender of any sort though with Hamilton, Orser, young Boitano, Sabovcik, Cerne, young Fadeev, Schramm (even if he was on decline by then), figures specialist Simond all in the mix. His bronze in 82 was great, but even here Orser soundly beat him in both free skating parts. He probably would have figured in the lower top 10 somewhere.

Wagenhoffer could be another story. He seemed on the ascent at the time he left. If he developed properly, added some harder jumps and improved his figures, he could be a dark horse for a medal by 84. And he definitely should make the US team, he might even have still been the US #2 over Boitano by then, as Boitano was slow to ascend politcally. In fact I think it is fairly likely he might have been.

Max Aaron? Well the 2014 competition was super messy, so if he skated great with a bunch of quads, maybe he could have had a shot at the bronze, although I doubt it even then. His PCS would probably never make it.

Zagarodniuk might have beaten Petrenko (with his bad short program) out for 4th place in Lillehammer. I don't see any chance he medals though, even if he skated his best. I never saw him do a pair of performances that would displace any of Urmanov, Stojko, or Candelero from the podium with their performancdes in Lillehammer.

Santee was bypassed by a bunch of people already by 82. He skates his best in the long program at Nationals but only came 4th in that part behind Hamilton, Wagenhoffer, young Boitano. He would have struggled to even make the team by 84, especialy if Wagenhoffer now also stays in, forget being a contender for 84. His shot at an Olympic medal, albeit a long one even then, was 1980.

Vlaschenko could have been a shot at top 5 or top 6 in Nagano if he skates his best with the messy performances of a lot of contenders.

I don't think Plushenko medals in 2014, even with the messy competition. I guess a bronze is possible but even for that he needs to skate better than he did in the Team event which I think was already close to his max by then. He was pretty old, outdated, and hanging on by a thread by then, and did well to skate as well as he did for the Team Event.

Brown in 2018? Without a quad I don't see any chance of a medal, but he could have finished as high as like 6th or 7th if he had a great showing, but he was super inconsistent this season, as reflected by his poor performances at Nationals that dropped him off the team.

Don't remember much about Bobrin at all. Just that he was really innovative and part of making some great shows post amateur. I am sure he could have been somewhere in the top 10 if he made it to Sarajevo, although I doubt a strong medal threat.

 

[olympic]

Sabovcik actually had a really good shot to win the 86 worlds. Especialy with Fadeev bigtime and to a lesser extent Orser blowing the long program. The judges would have favored him over Boitano at that point in time, he had won the Europeans over World Champion Fadeeva that same year, was 2nd going into the long (vs Boitano who was 4th and only placed 5th in the short program where he skated cleanly) and he only needed to be 2nd in the long over Orser (who didn't skate well) with the factored points anyway.

I do think that would have given him more momentum but really with his injury I am not sure it matters much.

Although if he could ever make a semi decent comeback from the injury the bronze in Calgary would be in reach for sure. Petrenko only won the bronze since Fadeev badly bombed both the short and long programs in Calgary, he was a total newcomer who was still gaining any name recognition and thus very beatable, despite that he was already really good. And of course Sabovcik is stronger in figures than Petrenko and should have been able to pad an early lead there if in shape.

As for Mark Mitchell I think he definitely does better than Todd's 10th place in Albertville. Although it is more likely Wylie who he would have gone in place of, and I definitely don't think he duplicates Wylie's silver or medals at all. Assuming he replaces Wylie he finishes in the 4-7 range with Urmanov, young Stojko, and badly off form Browning territory I would guess.

In Lillehammer it probably would be more of the same. I don't see him medaling for sure, but could finish anywhere in the 4-8 territory, so likely matches or betters Davis's 8th. On the other hand he was much more inconsistent by 94 than he had been around 92, so this is much less certain/likely than 92 would be.

Jeff Buttle even without a quad could have won the Olympic Gold on home ice in 2010 over Lysacek (who also didn't have a quad) if he skated nearly perfectly, but that was rare for him as he was an inconsistent skater at the best of times. More likely for him it is possible he turns in a decent competition with a few mistakes to edge out Takahashi and Lambiel (who both had a lot of mistakes, Lambiel imparticular) for the bronze, but even that would require one of his better outings as he was a hot and cold skater, and not a very stable jumper.

Galindo I think definitely had a good chance of making the 98 Olympics over Weiss, but Weiss skated quite well at the 98 Nationals, so he would have had to be pretty clean probably. Weiss had more jumping firepower and was seen by the USFSA as the future already. And some thought he should have beaten Eldredge at those Nationals, and IIRC he had a couple first place ordinals over Eldredge. Oh yeah I forgot if Galindo is at 97 worlds in place of Hollander the US almost certainly has 3 spots and all 3 of Weiss, Galindo, Eldredge should make it now. Even from his pro performances I don't see a washed up Scott Davis beating him unless he has one of his worst outings. As a recent US Champion and world medalist he would have the politically advantage over Davis for sure. I don't see him medaling in Nagano, although it is possible he could have if he has a great outing. Outside of Kulik, everyone was very beatable there, the jumper Stojko won silver without a quad (and injured) since there were so many mistakes by everyone else.

Pocker could have easily made it to 84 as Canadian #2 but no way do I see him being a medal contender of any sort though with Hamilton, Orser, young Boitano, Sabovcik, Cerne, young Fadeev, Schramm (even if he was on decline by then), figures specialist Simond all in the mix. His bronze in 82 was great, but even here Orser soundly beat him in both free skating parts. He probably would have figured in the lower top 10 somewhere.

Wagenhoffer could be another story. He seemed on the ascent at the time he left. If he developed properly, added some harder jumps and improved his figures, he could be a dark horse for a medal by 84. And he definitely should make the US team, he might even have still been the US #2 over Boitano by then, as Boitano was slow to ascend politcally. In fact I think it is fairly likely he might have been.

Max Aaron? Well the 2014 competition was super messy, so if he skated great with a bunch of quads, maybe he could have had a shot at the bronze, although I doubt it even then. His PCS would probably never make it.

Zagarodniuk might have beaten Petrenko (with his bad short program) out for 4th place in Lillehammer. I don't see any chance he medals though, even if he skated his best. I never saw him do a pair of performances that would displace any of Urmanov, Stojko, or Candelero from the podium with their performancdes in Lillehammer.

Santee was bypassed by a bunch of people already by 82. He skates his best in the long program at Nationals but only came 4th in that part behind Hamilton, Wagenhoffer, young Boitano. He would have struggled to even make the team by 84, especialy if Wagenhoffer now also stays in, forget being a contender for 84. His shot at an Olympic medal, albeit a long one even then, was 1980.

Vlaschenko could have been a shot at top 5 or top 6 in Nagano if he skates his best with the messy performances of a lot of contenders.

I don't think Plushenko medals in 2014, even with the messy competition. I guess a bronze is possible but even for that he needs to skate better than he did in the Team event which I think was already close to his max by then. He was pretty old, outdated, and hanging on by a thread by then, and did well to skate as well as he did for the Team Event.

Brown in 2018? Without a quad I don't see any chance of a medal, but he could have finished as high as like 6th or 7th if he had a great showing, but he was super inconsistent this season, as reflected by his poor performances at Nationals that dropped him off the team.

Don't remember much about Bobrin at all. Just that he was really innovative and part of making some great shows post amateur. I am sure he could have been somewhere in the top 10 if he made it to Sarajevo, although I doubt a strong medal threat.

Thanks for the reply. I enjoyed reading your views.

After reading posts by you and @bardtoob , I think there are odds that Sabovcik might have grabbed a Bronze. I can't help but have a feeling that the USSR would have attempted something to keep Petrenko on the podium. Were there USSR block judges on the Calgary men's panel?

I agree on Mark Mitchell's possible placement, but wasn't Todd given a medical bye to compete in Albertville? I figured that the US team would be represented by Wylie, Bowman and either Eldredge / Mitchell. I also agree that likely he would have outperformed Scott Davis in 94, although Davis won 1994 Nationals, so hard to see how he would be replaced. BTW, how did the US not have 3 spots for Lillehamer 1994 if the US placements at 1993 Worlds in Prague were 4-6??

I also agree w/ the assessment on Buttle; a chance he could've won, but likely fighting for the Bronze. Lysacek was consistent in the same way that Buttle was inconsistent.

Good catch on Rudy Galindo that he would've helped keep 3 spots for Nagano 1998, and I agree that he had a shot like everyone else considering mistakes made in the competition there though unlikely. It is also quite possible that his flame from 1996 may not have burned brightly through to the Olympics in such a way to keep him near the top. I do think he could've made the team though.

Yes. Agree on Wagenhoffer; easily #3 US entry ahead of Mark Cockerell who was 13th at Sarajevo, but Boitano had skated very well at 1983 Worlds and was touted for being the 1st US man to land a 3A. IDK if Wagenhoffer could've beaten that. I also see him in the top 6-10, penultimate group material along with Brian Pockar, whom IMO you put correctly as CAN's #2, and no, Santee is not on the Olympic team in 1984. He was a US standard-bearer since the 1976 Innsbruck Olympics (6th) then Lake Placid in 1980 (4th), 1981 World Silver-medalist. Just seems to be a let down he didn't break through that final barrier.

I don't think that Max Aaron medals in 2014 Sochi, but as discussed, 3-9 at Sochi was a big mess and anything was going to happed. Max just didn't have that packaging that I think the ISU judges would have looked for in a tight contest among the World's best. But he wouldn't have replaced Jeremy Abbott, who won Nationals but was a mess in Sochi, rather Jason Brown who was the top US finisher, and the US would not have had 3 spots for Sochi because Max and Ross Miner were not going to get near 13 at 2013 Worlds. Now, Plushenko skating in Russia and their only entry may have gotten a podium finish over Denis Ten. It happened in Ice Dance with Ilynkh / Katsalapov getting Bronze over Pechalat / Bourzat as hometown favorites.

My supposition was that Jason Brown in Pyeongcheng 2018 would have replaced Adam Rippon and might have done overall better as the US #3 entry, although I am very happy Adam was chosen.

ETA - I think everyone agrees that no one was really missing from 2002 and 2006 (?) I go back to Oda: If JPN had 2 spots, Oda would've been in the top 10 at Torino. I don't think he had that much of a reputation by the time of the 2006 Torino Olympics, but he was starting his journey as a silky smooth jumper and an audience's delight. Now, if Goebel had maintained form from 2003, maybe he is on the podium, but what exactly were the causes of his downfall the next year in 2004? IIRC, he was regaining some of his form but I don't think he outdoes Matt Savoie, the US #3 entry who finished 7th

 

[trainingdogs82]

Todd was 4th at Nationals 94 where he skated a terrible LP, so hypothetically it seems he would not have made the team even without Boitano back, although maybe he is held up and given the 2nd spot over Nielsen without Boitano now anyway.

It is possible he medals in Lillehammer with how the competition panned

Thanks for the reply. I enjoyed reading your views.

After reading posts by you and @bardtoob , I think there are odds that Sabovcik might have grabbed a Bronze. I can't help but have a feeling that the USSR would have attempted something to keep Petrenko on the podium. Were there USSR block judges on the Calgary men's panel?

I agree on Mark Mitchell's possible placement, but wasn't Todd given a medical bye to compete in Albertville? I figured that the US team would be represented by Wylie, Bowman and either Eldredge / Mitchell. I also agree that likely he would have outperformed Scott Davis in 94, although Davis won 1994 Nationals, so hard to see how he would be replaced. BTW, how did the US not have 3 spots for Lillehamer 1994 if the US placements at 1993 Worlds in Prague were 4-6??

I also agree w/ the assessment on Buttle; a chance he could've won, but likely fighting for the Bronze. Lysacek was consistent in the same way that Buttle was inconsistent.

Good catch on Rudy Galindo that he would've helped keep 3 spots for Nagano 1998, and I agree that he had a shot like everyone else considering mistakes made in the competition there though unlikely. It is also quite possible that his flame from 1996 may not have burned brightly through to the Olympics in such a way to keep him near the top. I do think he could've made the team though.

Yes. Agree on Wagenhoffer; easily #3 US entry ahead of Mark Cockerell who was 13th at Sarajevo, but Boitano had skated very well at 1983 Worlds and was touted for being the 1st US man to land a 3A. IDK if Wagenhoffer could've beaten that. I also see him in the top 6-10, penultimate group material along with Brian Pockar, whom IMO you put correctly as CAN's #2, and no, Santee is not on the Olympic team in 1984. He was a US standard-bearer since the 1976 Innsbruck Olympics (6th) then Lake Placid in 1980 (4th), 1981 World Silver-medalist. Just seems to be a let down he didn't break through that final barrier.

I don't think that Max Aaron medals in 2014 Sochi, but as discussed, 3-9 at Sochi was a big mess and anything was going to happed. Max just didn't have that packaging that I think the ISU judges would have looked for in a tight contest among the World's best. But he wouldn't have replaced Jeremy Abbott, who won Nationals but was a mess in Sochi, rather Jason Brown who was the top US finisher, and the US would not have had 3 spots for Sochi because Max and Ross Miner were not going to get near 13 at 2013 Worlds. Now, Plushenko skating in Russia and their only entry may have gotten a podium finish over Denis Ten. It happened in Ice Dance with Ilynkh / Katsalapov getting Bronze over Pechalat / Bourzat as hometown favorites.

My supposition was that Jason Brown in Pyeongcheng 2018 would have replaced Adam Rippon and might have done overall better as the US #3 entry, although I am very happy Adam was chosen

Thing to remember is the Soviet federation was pushing for Fadeev (clearly the #1 Soviet going into Calgary despite the surprise outcome). He was certainly the Soviet they expected to medal, not Petrenko, and they wanted him to even have a shot at the gold if he skated really well. So I don't think politics would have been what put Petrenko on the podium over Sabovcik, as I simply don't think there was much for him to begin with. Heck I am not even sure if he was solidly the #2 Soviet over Kotin (who was 4th at 87 worlds and on the scene a long time) going into Calgary or not. Unless given Fadeev's inconsistency issues which were getting worse and worse they did some good politiking behind the scenes for Petrenko just as a back up plan so in case Fadeev bombed badly enough they would still get a medal. That wasn't evident to me by any of the actual marking of the event as was though. To me it just looked like Fadeev skated a really bad short program, a pretty bad long program, and young Petrenko skated well, definitely was not overmarked, to step in and medal instead. It does seem many are forgetting Petrenko was not expected to medal in Calgary at all though, nor was he top Soviet man at the top despite winding up finishing as top Soviet man in Calgary.

I do think it is possible Aaron or old Plushenko get a bronze in Sochi but either one would have had to skate lights out for what either was capable of at the time, even with the very poorly skated event. I think for Aaron it would have been an even harder road than Plushenko, his PCS were never competitive internationally, nor his GOE, he would have had to pump in those quads, and do them all perfectly to make it. Like the time he won Skate America. I was sad he missed the team as I didn't have faith in Abbott at all anymore, and I knew Brown without a quad would find it nearly impossible to medal. I did think he was the US best shot of a top 5 finish, even without the benefit of hindsight.

The US did not have 3 spots for 94 since they won no medals at the 93 worlds. That is how it was determined then, not combined placements. That only began I think in 97. Pairs if you managed a top 5 you could send 3, any other discipline you needed a top 3. Mitchell was 4th at the 93 worlds which just missed. I guess hypothetically he would have replaced Boitano since he was 2nd at Nationals, but I think in an alternate universe Mitchell skated so well he won Nationals and made the team, the judges might hold Boitano up over Davis for the 2nd spot or something. Realistically the USFSA was always pretty far up Davis's ass back then, and in fairness he did skate quite well even though not perfectly at 94 Nationals, and Boitano was Boitano and also skated very well minus the 2nd triple axel, that I think either Mitchell or Eldredge would have had a hard road in ever making it no matter how they skated at Nationals. Although ironically with how the competition played out I could see Eldredge maybe medaling, although even in his case I think it would be difficult as he wasn't exactly on the up then, and it is not like any of the 3 medalists skated poorly even Candelero. I don't see Mitchell medaling for sure, his jumping had become weak already by then even in his better outings, and he almost never landed a triple axel anymore, and as it was skated terribly at Nationals 94 where I think he was 6th. He was realistically more primed for 92, which was also a poorer skated event despite the focus of the pros and Browning's short program errors in 94, although I doubt he medals there either. Although in this hypothetical Mitchell I guess somehow jumped and skated far better at Nationals 94 than he ever did in his life (unless Davis or Boitano skated worse) so who knows what he takes from that confidence for Lillehammer.

Yeah Eldredge was the medical bye in 92, but he was always going to be a medical bye realistically, like 100%. I mentioned Wylie since it was very controversial at the time Wylie beat Mitchell at all at the 92 Nationals, which he barely did. And if Mitchell lands that triple flip combo they literally have no choice but to have Mitchell over Wylie now. So I think that is the more realistic way Mitchell makes it as Eldredge was never not going to be put on the team, despite what horrible shape we saw he was in.

When it comes to Wagenhoffer, I am assuming he would have continued to develop and improve himself, as he seemed to be on the ascent in 82. If he did that yes I could see him staying above Boitano through 84, as Boitano was pretty stingily scored by the judges at that point, did not seem to get a lot of USFSA support which all went to Hamilton, and his artistry was considered weakish by most people still at that point. I am thinking if Wagenhoffer kept improving he could have maybe been a medal contender by 84, and if he were he would likely be above Boitano, who was not really considered a medal hopeful in 84. It is all conjecture though. Of course if he just flatlined after 82, yes Boitano would probably pass him without much problem, although he would still likely make the 84 team.

I think Adam did about as well as an almost quadless guy without a world medal was going to do in 2018. I don't think Jason would have done any better, particularly with his inconsistent performances that season unlike many other seasons to boot. Maybe the same sort of result, and even that would mean skating far better than he did the pre Olympic events where he had an unusual number of mistakes, most of all his US Nationals performances that kept him off the team (even though Adam also faltered there). To be honest given his season I would predict Brown to have a worse result, considering as I said Adam did skate very well at the Olympics. I love Brown but now way do I see him killing at the Games with how he was skating most of that season.

Yeah Galindo it could go any number of ways. He wasn't a young skater, and I think maintaining his magic from 96 Nationals and 96 worlds would be a tough ask. However if he did have a good competition with a clean triple axel in the short and some triple-triples in the long a silver or bronze was possible with how Nagano played out. It is a lot of guesswork though, he might be US #3 by then and just a top 10 skater, but either way he would atleast get an Olympic experience.

 

[bardtoob]

Calling it new was hardly unique to Plushenko! I believe most US commentators and reporters were calling it new as well.

Judges are supposed to judge what they see skaters do not on what they say. When American judge Inman was emailing all the other judges demanding they score Plushenko low based on what he said that was the most political thing ever revealed so close to an Olympics. Same thing when he put Plushenko in a video on bad scoring knowing he would return

It doesn't matter what other people did.

Plushenko is responsible for what he did.

What Plushenko did was not optimal to scoring well according to the judging criteria because he didn't think the judging criteria was relevant to him.

 

[bardtoob]

@trainingdogs82

Where have you been?!?

Great comments!

 

[caseyedwards]

It doesn't matter what other people did.

Plushenko is responsible for what he did.

What Plushenko did was not optimal to scoring well according to the judging criteria because he didn't think the judging criteria was relevant to him.

Obviously because he lost! But it was wrong. Just because something got more points doesn’t mean it was right to get more points. If he wanted to get more points he wouldn’t have done any quads, been 3/5 layout, hire Lori Nichol etc! But even buttle Carroll and more said Olympic judges wouldn’t allow quadless to win

 

[bardtoob]

If he wanted to get more points he wouldn’t have done any quads, been 3/5 layout, hire Lori Nichol etc! But even buttle Carroll . . .

I don't think that plan would work all the time since it didn't work for Michelle Kwan.

. . . and more said Olympic judges wouldn’t allow quadless to win

. . . that seems a bit fringe, as opposed to the official judging criteria written by the ISU technical committee.

Obviously because he lost! But it was wrong. Just because something got more points doesn’t mean it was right to get more points.

This reminds me of the tail of Jan Hoffmann. At the 1980 Olympics he scores the most points but still gets the silver medal, then at the 1994 Olympics he places Nancy Kerrigan lower than Oksana Baiul and states he would have scored Nancy higher if he had seen her triple-triple.

Of course, if you poke at it long enough you might conclude that figure skating is a competition audition, not a sport, and shouldn't be at the Olympics at all, thus no medals for anybody.

 

[olympic]

Todd was 4th at Nationals 94 where he skated a terrible LP, so hypothetically it seems he would not have made the team even without Boitano back, although maybe he is held up and given the 2nd spot over Nielsen without Boitano now anyway.

It is possible he medals in Lillehammer with how the competition panned


Thing to remember is the Soviet federation was pushing for Fadeev (clearly the #1 Soviet going into Calgary despite the surprise outcome). He was certainly the Soviet they expected to medal, not Petrenko, and they wanted him to even have a shot at the gold if he skated really well. So I don't think politics would have been what put Petrenko on the podium over Sabovcik, as I simply don't think there was much for him to begin with. Heck I am not even sure if he was solidly the #2 Soviet over Kotin (who was 4th at 87 worlds and on the scene a long time) going into Calgary or not. Unless given Fadeev's inconsistency issues which were getting worse and worse they did some good politiking behind the scenes for Petrenko just as a back up plan so in case Fadeev bombed badly enough they would still get a medal. That wasn't evident to me by any of the actual marking of the event as was though. To me it just looked like Fadeev skated a really bad short program, a pretty bad long program, and young Petrenko skated well, definitely was not overmarked, to step in and medal instead. It does seem many are forgetting Petrenko was not expected to medal in Calgary at all though, nor was he top Soviet man at the top despite winding up finishing as top Soviet man in Calgary.

I do think it is possible Aaron or old Plushenko get a bronze in Sochi but either one would have had to skate lights out for what either was capable of at the time, even with the very poorly skated event. I think for Aaron it would have been an even harder road than Plushenko, his PCS were never competitive internationally, nor his GOE, he would have had to pump in those quads, and do them all perfectly to make it. Like the time he won Skate America. I was sad he missed the team as I didn't have faith in Abbott at all anymore, and I knew Brown without a quad would find it nearly impossible to medal. I did think he was the US best shot of a top 5 finish, even without the benefit of hindsight.

The US did not have 3 spots for 94 since they won no medals at the 93 worlds. That is how it was determined then, not combined placements. That only began I think in 97. Pairs if you managed a top 5 you could send 3, any other discipline you needed a top 3. Mitchell was 4th at the 93 worlds which just missed. I guess hypothetically he would have replaced Boitano since he was 2nd at Nationals, but I think in an alternate universe Mitchell skated so well he won Nationals and made the team, the judges might hold Boitano up over Davis for the 2nd spot or something. Realistically the USFSA was always pretty far up Davis's ass back then, and in fairness he did skate quite well even though not perfectly at 94 Nationals, and Boitano was Boitano and also skated very well minus the 2nd triple axel, that I think either Mitchell or Eldredge would have had a hard road in ever making it no matter how they skated at Nationals. Although ironically with how the competition played out I could see Eldredge maybe medaling, although even in his case I think it would be difficult as he wasn't exactly on the up then, and it is not like any of the 3 medalists skated poorly even Candelero. I don't see Mitchell medaling for sure, his jumping had become weak already by then even in his better outings, and he almost never landed a triple axel anymore, and as it was skated terribly at Nationals 94 where I think he was 6th. He was realistically more primed for 92, which was also a poorer skated event despite the focus of the pros and Browning's short program errors in 94, although I doubt he medals there either. Although in this hypothetical Mitchell I guess somehow jumped and skated far better at Nationals 94 than he ever did in his life (unless Davis or Boitano skated worse) so who knows what he takes from that confidence for Lillehammer.

Yeah Eldredge was the medical bye in 92, but he was always going to be a medical bye realistically, like 100%. I mentioned Wylie since it was very controversial at the time Wylie beat Mitchell at all at the 92 Nationals, which he barely did. And if Mitchell lands that triple flip combo they literally have no choice but to have Mitchell over Wylie now. So I think that is the more realistic way Mitchell makes it as Eldredge was never not going to be put on the team, despite what horrible shape we saw he was in.

When it comes to Wagenhoffer, I am assuming he would have continued to develop and improve himself, as he seemed to be on the ascent in 82. If he did that yes I could see him staying above Boitano through 84, as Boitano was pretty stingily scored by the judges at that point, did not seem to get a lot of USFSA support which all went to Hamilton, and his artistry was considered weakish by most people still at that point. I am thinking if Wagenhoffer kept improving he could have maybe been a medal contender by 84, and if he were he would likely be above Boitano, who was not really considered a medal hopeful in 84. It is all conjecture though. Of course if he just flatlined after 82, yes Boitano would probably pass him without much problem, although he would still likely make the 84 team.

I think Adam did about as well as an almost quadless guy without a world medal was going to do in 2018. I don't think Jason would have done any better, particularly with his inconsistent performances that season unlike many other seasons to boot. Maybe the same sort of result, and even that would mean skating far better than he did the pre Olympic events where he had an unusual number of mistakes, most of all his US Nationals performances that kept him off the team (even though Adam also faltered there). To be honest given his season I would predict Brown to have a worse result, considering as I said Adam did skate very well at the Olympics. I love Brown but now way do I see him killing at the Games with how he was skating most of that season.

Yeah Galindo it could go any number of ways. He wasn't a young skater, and I think maintaining his magic from 96 Nationals and 96 worlds would be a tough ask. However if he did have a good competition with a clean triple axel in the short and some triple-triples in the long a silver or bronze was possible with how Nagano played out. It is a lot of guesswork though, he might be US #3 by then and just a top 10 skater, but either way he would atleast get an Olympic experience.

Great. Thanks for the clarity on USSR politik in 1988

 

[Marco]

I never warmed up to Sandhu so my thoughts about 2002 was more like - what if Sandhu had withdrawn earlier and Buttle was sent instead. He didn't have a 3axel then and wasn't going to be a threat. But he was a delight at 2002 Worlds so I suppose he could well have gotten himself some good experience and exposure at SLC and went on to 2006 with Olympic experience under his belt.

About Buttle in 2008 - well he was never consistent (esp the 3axel) and actually lost Nationals to Chan that season. The squeakly clean Worlds performances were very rare for him even without attempting quads and I think he knew that. With winning Worlds and after having won an Olympic medal in 2006 there really was no more motivation for him to continue, and he admitted that at the time. Chan being hyped as the next best thing was obviously a catalyst, but more so I believe the decision was based on his own inconsistency. At the time, Joubert, Takahashi, Lambiel, Lysacek all had quads. He must have realized it's too difficult for the stars to align again and again. If he stayed, my guess is he was most likely going to enter Vancouver Olympics as the second placed Canadian man. Lysacek did subsequently win Worlds and Olympics with the same formula, but he was always much more consistent on his triples, esp without quads, so I doubt Buttle saw how Lysacek won in Vancouver and thought "I could have done that".

Oda vs Takahashi in 2006 - That was a nailbiter. Takahashi tanked 2005 Worlds so Japan only had 1 spot for men. Both had a great GP season and made GPF - which Takahashi beat Oda decisively and medaled. Oda originally beat Takahashi at Nationals but Oda's 1st COP incident came and his score was revised and he dropped to second before Takahashi, I believe after the ceremony was over. Anyways Takahashi didn't have a good Olympics but Oda on the other hand was another COP incident away from medaling (!!). Sigh Oda would retire NOT being a world medalist and his debut was his closest.

I do feel for Kovtun in 2014 not because I particularly liked him or his skating, but because he did win Nationals but his Olympic spot was given to Plushenko who was most predictably going to W/D from the individual event, only that he did it too late for Kovtun to take over.

About Plushenko and his arrogance - he lost Vancouver Olympics (and that one GPF to Sandhu) because of nothing more than him not maximising his points. Switching in the 3flip for the 2axel, adding a 2loop to one of his combos, upgrading flying spin, backloading one more jump (Lysacek backloaded 5 vs Plushenko's 3) etc - just 1 or 2 minor doable adjustments would have been enough. It's nothing about guts and glory. Just arrogance. He did say at the time he didn't feel he needed those extra points. Ironically he was the modern pioneer of the 3 jump combo.

 

[trainingdogs82]

IMO Plushenko's PCS for that fairly empty long program were inflated as they were. Yes his loss was entirely his own fault. He gave up some easy places to gain points, purely out of arrogance. Which makes no sense, I would get that in 2006, but he was in no way in a class of his own like 2006. There were atleast 6 guys who had decent chances to beat him even clean if they skated well (Takahashi, Lambiel, Chan, Lysacek, Joubert, maybe Abbott, maybe Oda), although he was probably very likely to medal atleast due to his consistency mainly. So I don't get where he thought he could just leave points on the board through program layout and not care, like he was delusional this was still 2006 where he was 20-30 points ahead of everyone in the judges eyes. His European win being fairly comfortable probably fed some of this delusion, but even there Joubert and Lambiel were given higher PCS than he was, which never happens in 2006, and he won comfortably only since they both had a ton of mistakes.

 

[tony]

I never warmed up to Sandhu so my thoughts about 2002 was more like - what if Sandhu had withdrawn earlier and Buttle was sent instead. He didn't have a 3axel then and wasn't going to be a threat. But he was a delight at 2002 Worlds so I suppose he could well have gotten himself some good experience and exposure at SLC and went on to 2006 with Olympic experience under his belt.

Buttle had a 3A at that point I'm pretty sure. I remember his 2002 Worlds short being aired in the US and I watched it many times.

 

[Marco]

Buttle had a 3A at that point I'm pretty sure. I remember his 2002 Worlds short being aired in the US and I watched it many times.

Great! I only saw his free skate which didn't have one. My poor guess.

 

[Marco]

IMO Plushenko's PCS for that fairly empty long program were inflated as they were. Yes his loss was entirely his own fault. He gave up some easy places to gain points, purely out of arrogance. Which makes no sense, I would get that in 2006, but he was in no way in a class of his own like 2006. There were atleast 6 guys who had decent chances to beat him even clean if they skated well (Takahashi, Lambiel, Chan, Lysacek, Joubert, maybe Abbott, maybe Oda), although he was probably very likely to medal atleast due to his consistency mainly. So I don't get where he thought he could just leave points on the board through program layout and not care, like he was delusional this was still 2006 where he was 20-30 points ahead of everyone in the judges eyes. His European win being fairly comfortable probably fed some of this delusion, but even there Joubert and Lambiel were given higher PCS than he was, which never happens in 2006, and he won comfortably only since they both had a ton of mistakes.

And if he had followed his competition closely he would know 2008 and 2009 Worlds were won without quads, against someone with quads. I have no idea why he would feel he didn't need every single point he could get in 2010.

Come to think of it though, if his first few jumps weren't so tilted, he might just have enough GOEs to surpass Lysacek. 2010 was the year when jump GOEs were massive. Lysacek was also lucky his axels weren't dinged.

 

[caseyedwards]

I never warmed up to Sandhu so my thoughts about 2002 was more like - what if Sandhu had withdrawn earlier and Buttle was sent instead. He didn't have a 3axel then and wasn't going to be a threat. But he was a delight at 2002 Worlds so I suppose he could well have gotten himself some good experience and exposure at SLC and went on to 2006 with Olympic experience under his belt.

About Buttle in 2008 - well he was never consistent (esp the 3axel) and actually lost Nationals to Chan that season. The squeakly clean Worlds performances were very rare for him even without attempting quads and I think he knew that. With winning Worlds and after having won an Olympic medal in 2006 there really was no more motivation for him to continue, and he admitted that at the time. Chan being hyped as the next best thing was obviously a catalyst, but more so I believe the decision was based on his own inconsistency. At the time, Joubert, Takahashi, Lambiel, Lysacek all had quads. He must have realized it's too difficult for the stars to align again and again. If he stayed, my guess is he was most likely going to enter Vancouver Olympics as the second placed Canadian man. Lysacek did subsequently win Worlds and Olympics with the same formula, but he was always much more consistent on his triples, esp without quads, so I doubt Buttle saw how Lysacek won in Vancouver and thought "I could have done that".

Oda vs Takahashi in 2006 - That was a nailbiter. Takahashi tanked 2005 Worlds so Japan only had 1 spot for men. Both had a great GP season and made GPF - which Takahashi beat Oda decisively and medaled. Oda originally beat Takahashi at Nationals but Oda's 1st COP incident came and his score was revised and he dropped to second before Takahashi, I believe after the ceremony was over. Anyways Takahashi didn't have a good Olympics but Oda on the other hand was another COP incident away from medaling (!!). Sigh Oda would retire NOT being a world medalist and his debut was his closest.

I do feel for Kovtun in 2014 not because I particularly liked him or his skating, but because he did win Nationals but his Olympic spot was given to Plushenko who was most predictably going to W/D from the individual event, only that he did it too late for Kovtun to take over.

About Plushenko and his arrogance - he lost Vancouver Olympics (and that one GPF to Sandhu) because of nothing more than him not maximising his points. Switching in the 3flip for the 2axel, adding a 2loop to one of his combos, upgrading flying spin, backloading one more jump (Lysacek backloaded 5 vs Plushenko's 3) etc - just 1 or 2 minor doable adjustments would have been enough. It's nothing about guts and glory. Just arrogance. He did say at the time he didn't feel he needed those extra points. Ironically he was the modern pioneer of the 3 jump combo.

He thought he did maximize Being basically only one with quad triple and triple axel. No one else in the entire top 10 really had that. It’s like he needs a double toe but The winner didn’t need a quad? I mean why was the quad so worthless? Quad triple so worthless. And Lysacek also ended his program with a double axel jump.

Yes and that whole season Plushenko never did a 3 jump combo anywhere and it’s not really clear why.

Buttle was inconsistent but his kamikaze quads didn’t help that. He would have been so much more relaxed knowing he never had to do a quad.

And if he had followed his competition closely he would know 2008 and 2009 Worlds were won without quads, against someone with quads. I have no idea why he would feel he didn't need every single point he could get in 2010.

Come to think of it though, if his first few jumps weren't so tilted, he might just have enough GOEs to surpass Lysacek. 2010 was the year when jump GOEs were massive. Lysacek was also lucky his axels weren't dinged.

This is true but I just read a bunch of articles from 2008 and 2009 after quadless winners where everyone did seem to agree judges would never give Olympic title to a quadless man.

U.S. skater Evan Lysacek needs to join the quad squad

Brian Joubert of France easily outpointed Evan Lysacek in the short program Wednesday night, even though Lysacek skated a fluid, clean routine while Joubert touched down on the ice on a quad jump and stepped out of a combination.

www.nydailynews.com