From Russia With Love (No 32): Spring to Summer 2019

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Perky Shae Lynn said:
Lets see how happy the kids are when they need hip and knee replacements by their mid-20s.
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let's see how happy US, Canadian, Japanese kids are when they need the same, given they are doing the same elements.. ;) ... oh, wait..... Canadian ladies will not be doing "the same" for a while, they can hardly make it into top 20... :lol: but then there is Canadian Gogolev... he's is all out for quads at his tender age.
 
Perky Shae Lynn said:
Lets see how happy the kids are when they need hip and knee replacements by their mid-20s.
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And in these circumstances hope that none of them are required to work jobs which require physical exertion.

It’s all roses until you see tradesmen on disability pensions in their early 40s because they broke their bodies playing sports as teenagers and young men (but were never quite successful enough to make the top grade).

Honestly, the only reason I can imagine adults being obsessed with these junior skaters is because it represents some kind of ‘discipline fantasy’. As in the fantasy of obedient subservient disciplined children. Which is why there is such a backlash the moment any of them deviate from being perfectly obedient.
 
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Perky Shae Lynn said:
Lets see how happy the kids are when they need hip and knee replacements by their mid-20s.
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Tara Lipinski gave the impression that she thought it was all worth it when she had her hip done at 18. I think Mirai thought the same. I'm not sure what surgery she had recently but I think she said it was a result of training the triple axel.

They won Olympic medals so I guess it makes sense they were willing to pay that price. As a parent it would be hard for me to allow it.
 
Finley said:
Tara Lipinski gave the impression that she thought it was all worth it when she had her hip done at 18. I think Mirai thought the same. I'm not sure what surgery she had recently but I think she said it was a result of training the triple axel.

They won Olympic medals so I guess it makes sense they were willing to pay that price. As a parent it would be hard for me to allow it.
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I suppose they felt the winning and, in Tara's case, a fairly significant level of fame, made it all worth it. But given how many young Russian teenagers are joining the Hunger Games, the outcome cannot be great. Some perhaps will reach the level of success that could justify (in their minds) the abuse they are putting their bodies through. Most won't. This is not just the Russian issue. This completely ruthless approach to children's bodies will have to become the norm in the US, Canada and Asia - if they want to remain competitive.
 
Perky Shae Lynn
I suppose they felt the winning and, in Tara's case, a fairly significant level of fame, made it all worth it. But given how many young Russian teenagers are joining the Hunger Games, the outcome cannot be great. Some perhaps will reach the level of success that could justify (in their minds) the abuse they are putting their bodies through. Most won't. This is not just the Russian issue. This completely ruthless approach to children's bodies will have to become the norm in the US, Canada and Asia - if they want to remain competitive
https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/rating/like?content_type=post&content_id=5587061&rating_type_id=1
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Because you talk about these problems so often and so much - do you have solutions for Russian teenagers, for teenagers in other countries who do so hard and extreme sport as figure skating (or gymnastics)? What can they do differently to eat everything freely and not jump quads?
 
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Perky Shae Lynn said:
given how many young Russian teenagers are joining the Hunger Games, the outcome cannot be great. Some perhaps will reach the level of success that could justify (in their minds) the abuse they are putting their bodies through. Most won't. This is not just the Russian issue. This completely ruthless approach to children's bodies will have to become the norm in the US, Canada and Asia - if they want to remain competitive.
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Even in 2010 Yagudin thought the same about the sport of setting records: he had noticed, that not everyone wins medals (though many don't care about their health or their education). He was saying to children he was "lucky": "Yet not many are as successful as me or Zhenya. Millions of children do sports. Many of them maybe not ruin their health, but do cross that line, when the sport demands more than their body can give, and they can't win. So as for education, their education isn't very good and as for sport, they didn't succeed to win. Yet I'm lucky."
When he says "their education isn't very good", he means, that many athletes almost don't care about getting knowledge in general education school (sport is more important for them).
Yet it seems Yagudin's attitude to Tutberidze is good. Maybe he is used to respect good results. (when Yagudin didn't like the work of the presedent of Russian skating federation, Yagudin said it, he even was... too talkative):)
As for their daughters, he and Totmianina choose good education: foreign languages and so on.

As for his skating schools... he says, that results are important for him, but... actually, it seems he tries to make all the world happy. If he wanted to make champions, one school would be enough for him. If he needed money, I guess he could find more rational way. Yet maybe "there is nothing Lyosha can't do"...
 
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Tinami Amori said:
The kids are happy, the parents are happy, the Federation is happy, the fans are happy..... only you're and few jealous ones who are reading selective propaganda are unhappy... well don't let the bile eat away your intestines..;)



...well, the media got the wind of her methods (and results) long time ago.... and the lines into her group are only getting longer .. :rofl:
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Scary you think concern is jealousy. Then again, you have unhealthy hate for Medvedeva and the even younger Alena, so I feel you are the one with some jealousy.
 
I remember when Medvedeva was held on a pedestal like a goddess to criticise Lipnitskaya. World turns quickly. Watch out Zagitova.
 
lily said:
What can they do differently to eat everything freely and not jump quads?
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I guess this situation can't change - while people don't think, that figure skating championships are kind of abuse, - or while jumps are not forbidden. There are many other modern things which are unhealthy or dangerous. Cars, nuclear energy stations, coal power stations and etc.
Well, I think people can live without watching such jumps and be happy, but I don't say, that people should stop jumping now, because... we do need arts and good emotions. I think we can get emotions not only like this, but our society should change for that, our minds should change.
I think nuclear energy stations or coal power stations are a good example. We can't say today: "Close them all!"

As for figure skating, I just think forbidding is useless, because many people think they have to fight for the success (in life) - while people think so, this competition for the success will be dangerous anyway. Many other "ways to success" are much more dangerous than figure skating.
 
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For me it’s the overall attitude that ladies skaters are disposable commodities that gets me. There’s just such a trend of churning and burning them at very very young ages.

Which is interesting because while men do lots of quads, the top men generally have much longer careers and have staying power to remain competitive to much older ages.
 
lily said:
Because you talk about these problems so often and so much - do you have solutions for Russian teenagers, for teenagers in other countries who do so hard and extreme sport as figure skating (or gymnastics)? What can they do differently to eat everything freely and not jump quads?
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Yeah, lets shove the issue under the rug and not talk about it... because young athletes are disposable commodities. :rolleyes:

Do I have a solution? The only solution is to have responsible adults running things. Responsible parents and coaches. To eat everything freely? Nobody eats everything freely. Diets are nothing new in sports, professional dance, ballet, etc. But there are diets and there are DIETS, where 15 year olds are expected to stay "dry" to minimize their weight.

Here is the bottom line. The Karolyi's human factory in gymnastics was successful for decades. The 'standard', you may say. Until we learned about all the terrible abuse the girls went through. Ruinous, physically and mentally. Eteri's human factory is magnifying a similar issue in ladies figure skating. For some people the end (medals) justifies the means (broken bodies). I disagree. If quads and other extreme technical advances in ladies figure skating mean that little girls are starved, and are disposed of as soon as they hit puberty - perhaps they are not worth it.
 
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starrynight said:
For me it’s the overall attitude that ladies skaters are disposable commodities that gets me. There’s just such a trend of churning and burning them at very very young ages.
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"Little Girls in Pretty Boxes: The Making and Breaking of Elite Gymnasts and Figure Skaters" (1995) by sports writer Joan Ryan.

One goes down, and up pops another one.
 
starrynight said:
For me it’s the overall attitude that ladies skaters are disposable commodities that gets me. There’s just such a trend of churning and burning them at very very young ages.

Which is interesting because while men do lots of quads, the top men generally have much longer careers and have staying power to remain competitive to much older ages.
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Men have more upper body strength, while the relative weight of their lower bodies is less. It is easier to take off with enough momentum. I don't know the exact mechanics of it, but it's something along those lines. The way women's bodies are designed also puts more pressure on the hips upon landing. I don't know where the limits are, physically. Perhaps with absolutely proper technique and patience women can learn quads and still have sustainable careers. When quads are rushed, and the "technique" is based on maintaining the lowest possible lower body weight, it's a disaster waiting to happen. I would like someone like Samodurova start learning a quad at 17, and see where it goes.
 
Perky Shae Lynn said:
If quads and other extreme technical advances in ladies figure skating mean that little girls are starved, and are disposed of as soon as they hit puberty - perhaps they are not worth it.
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I do actually think that this will 'self correct' as many things in figure skating do. If it becomes the case that this becomes ground hog day and ladies skating becomes a revolving door over a period of time, the judges may become less inclined to routinely catapult that season's freshly senior 15 year old straight onto world gold with huge PCS.
 
starrynight said:
I do actually think that this will 'self correct' as many things in figure skating do. If it becomes the case that this becomes ground hog day and ladies skating becomes a revolving door over a period of time, the judges may become less inclined to routinely catapult that season's freshly senior 15 year old straight onto world gold with huge PCS.
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And if ladies events start to be big splatfest and full of badly landed underrotated quads... i hope ISU steps in and adjusts the rules.
 
Dmitri Aliev update (May 17): https://fsrussia.ru/news/4395-dmitrij-aliev-esli-est-zhelanie-to-vse-poluchitsya.html
Google translated excerpt:
Now I am rolling out new [skates]. Daily at the rink. Two workouts per day. Returning to the form. ... Most importantly, there was a desire to work. And if there is a desire, then everything will work out. Now I come to workout and [skate] in pleasure. I have no fatigue. I understand that figure skating is mine and I need it.

In a few days we will go to the camp in Italy. New programs will be put there.
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Tinami Amori said:
The kids are happy, the parents are happy, the Federation is happy, the fans are happy..... only you're and few jealous ones who are reading selective propaganda are unhappy... well don't let the bile eat away your intestines..;)



...well, the media got the wind of her methods (and results) long time ago.... and the lines into her group are only getting longer .. :rofl:
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Totally like the ladies USA gymnastics program. The coaches and others could get away with abuse because competition was so intense. You don’t say anything because you could get replaced tomorrow.
 
Tinami Amori said:
The kids are happy, the parents are happy, the Federation is happy, the fans are happy..... only you're and few jealous ones who are reading selective propaganda are unhappy... well don't let the bile eat away your intestines..;)
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You don't know that the kids are happy. I'm reminded of the gymnastics coaches Bella and Martha Karolyi, who reportedly were harsh on their athletes. They apparently encouraged starvation/anorexia, and taught their gymnasts that eating was a weakness. That is according to Joan Ryan's book "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes". The author said that at one Olympics, Karolyi's gymnasts had food smuggled into their dormitory. The coaches apparently also forced their athletes to work when injured, with the support of the team doctor. I remember a documentary in which Bella said "Just don't let them out of the gym. If you do, they might not to come back".

Anyway, the author noted that although the Karolyis' questionable methods were well know, parents still wanted to send their kids to them - the reason being, they were known to produce champions.

Parents always don't do what is in the best interest of the child, especially when they have a whole lot invested in the success of the child.
 
Japanfan said:
You don't know that the kids are happy. I'm reminded of the gymnastics coaches Bella and Martha Karolyi, who reportedly were harsh on their athletes. They apparently encouraged starvation/anorexia, and taught their gymnasts that eating was a weakness. That is according to Joan Ryan's book "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes". The author said that at one Olympics, Karolyi's gymnasts had food smuggled into their dormitory. The coaches apparently also forced their athletes to work when injured, with the support of the team doctor. I remember a documentary in which Bella said "Just don't let them out of the gym. If you do, they might not to come back".

Anyway, the author noted that although the Karolyis' questionable methods were well know, parents still wanted to send their kids to them - the reason being, they were known to produce champions.

Parents always don't do what is in the best interest of the child, especially when they have a whole lot invested in the success of the child.
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I am not sure if it is the exact same case with the ET camp. If I understand correctly they live with their families and their parents are allowed to watch the practices, Daniil even said that Alena's mom watches sometimes. None of us know exactly what goes on there but I am under the impression they have access to food at home and the parent can stop the child/coach if they feel uncomfortable.
 
skatfan said:
Totally like the ladies USA gymnastics program. The coaches and others could get away with abuse because competition was so intense. You don’t say anything because you could get replaced tomorrow.
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My understanding is that in USA gymnastics, athletes and parents did make complaints, but the organization tried to cover it up and moved abusers along and didn’t disclose information. Also, given that there were so many cases of sexual abuse going on in USA gymnastics and a blind eye being turned up top, are we insinuating sexual abuse in Eteri’s group when we say it’s totally like the USA gymnastics program? Or are we speaking about the kinds of physical and/or emotional pressure, encouragement of weight loss, and burning out young etc. that has happened to figure skaters from many countries including but not exclusive to Russia? I’m thinking of Gracie Gold, and the tremendous pressure placed on her, I’m worried for Alisa Liu — media pressure and quad and triple axel training at such a young age, I’m thinking of Gabby Daleman being frank about perfection pressure and mental health problems, I remember Adam Rippon talking about disordered eating, I remember a Canadian choreographer TSL interviewed saying that Elizaveta Tuktamysheva of Russia should lose weight and he didn’t mean to improve her jumps — he meant so judges would supposedly give her better PCS scores for being thinner. And Tuktik is a long lasting Russian lady whose jump technique survived puberty! There have also been abuse allegations in USA figure skating via Safesport. I don’t know as much about coaching and controversies in countries like Japan or France, but these examples from North America alone make me confused why there is so much focus among skating fans on unhealthy practices and expectations in Russian figure skating. I live in the US, and I’m concerned about the health and well-being of the American skaters. I sat next to people this year at Skate America who went on and on about feeling sorry for Bradie Tennell because they said she’s not as pretty as the other girls and won’t do as well because of it. I was shocked. There is a real beauty pageant element in US figure skating culture that I think holds the athletes back. The US has also had ‘disposable’ teenage stars such as Kimmie Meissner and Polina Edmunds. Mirai Nagasu also seemed to be viewed as disposable by US figure skating, but she fought her way back. Maybe some of these Russian girls will do the same, and maybe, as someone already mentioned in this thread, eventually the rules will shift to better protect skaters’ interests.
 
rfisher said:
Would all of you who want to continue the endless debate over Russian training methods and diets please consider starting a separate thread and leave this for actual news? You can then :argue: to your heart's content
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I second that. I feel like this debate belongs in a separate thread, not just pertaining to Russia.
 
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