Downton Abbey Season 6 - PBS broadcast

[cygnus]

I am pretty sure that British peerage rules for Royalty and Nobility are somewhat different. Plus, Victoria's mother, Princess of Leningen (?), had a rather complicated past in terms of marriages, geography, titles and ranks (in a given system). Also, as you mentioned, Victoria and her mother were not on best terms to say the least, which leads to conclusion that Victoria would seek a reason not to grant her the Queen Mother title, rather than look for loopholes to do so.

Lady Mary's son (what ever that shrimp's name is), is not a "royalty" but "nobility", with direct lineage as a grand-son of Robert from his oldest daughter, is a "substantive peer". Substantive peers were/are allowed to grant "courtesy titles" to immediate family members. I am 95% sure that is correct.

However, if you have information that it is not correct, i would luuuuuuve to see it, because i love this segment of european and british history, and any info would help.

It is true that the children of peers are entitled to courtesy titles, but these are not granted buy the peer, but by custom ie a peer cannot refuse to grant his direct heir one of his subsidiary titles- they just have them. Likewise the Earl of Grantham didn't grant his daughters the title of "Lady"- they were entitled to it as daughters of an Earl. A Peer has no more power to grant titles than anyone else- you are entitled to one or you are not, by courtesy or right. Whether or not you chose to use your title, if you have one, is up to you

http://www.debretts.com/people/essential-guide-peerage/courtesy-titles (Debrett's is pretty much the standard in issues dealing with nobility)

And yes, Queen Victoria didn't exactly try hard to grant her mother a title, but as it turns out, she couldn't have been granted either Queen Mother or Queen Dowager anyways, as she had never been a Queen the rules are strict on that. She was HRH The (Dowager) Duchess of Kent.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Ihttp://www.debretts.com/people/essential-guide-peerage/courtesy-titles

Thanks!

 

[skatesindreams]

Camilla was given a title.

 

[cygnus]

cygnus, I meant that Anne's father did not inherit the title himself - Henry gave it to him.

Other than her own immediate family, it would be interesting to know how many titles the current Queen has bestowed. I know of Margaret Thatcher being made a Baroness, but not of any others.

On that note, given that this is what we're now talking about, it's too bad that we didn't get a bit more of this level of nobility during the series. It makes sense that Robert was just one of many, many titled people (and relatively minor by the family's lack of interaction with other nobility) for the purposes of the story, but methinks we might have all enjoyed just a bit more of Edith's grand new life, no? A few more balls and big dinners and weekend shooting parties and grand houses?

The Queen has given out lots of titles, actually- but almost all of them have been "Life" peerages with the rank of Baron- ie the children have courtesy titles of "The Honourable", and the spouse is "Lady" (Unfortunately the spouses of female peers don't share their title), but the title itself is not inherited. Andrew Lloyd Webber is a Life peer, as were PD James and Clementine Churchill. She created a few hereditary titles- mostly for some retiring Prime Ministers- the last in 1984- The Earl of Stockton (Harold McMillan)

 

[Coco]

Soooo...after six years let me ask: a Dowager is a widowed Countess or Duchess?

Let me guess, there is no title for Earls or Dukes who are widowers because they are still the Earl or the Duke.

 

[cygnus]

Soooo...after six years let me ask: a Dowager is a widowed Countess or Duchess?

Let me guess, there is no title for Earls or Dukes who are widowers because they are still the Earl or the Duke.

Yes- a widow of a titled hereditary noble (or Royal)- a widowed Queen consort could be known as the Queen Dowager, although the last few have chosen not to use it- George Vl's widow was known as the Queen Mother, and George V's widow preferred to be simply Queen Mary. While they are reigning with their husbands- they are "The Queen".

 

[Artemis@BC]

... but methinks we might have all enjoyed just a bit more of Edith's grand new life, no? A few more balls and big dinners and weekend shooting parties and grand houses?

I wonder how grand their lives will be, though. Neither Bertie nor Edith seems to be the grand party type. There will be societal pressure to have some token events -- and of course Bertie's mother will want him to keep the side up -- but I think Bertie will be happiest just quietly running the estate. And Edith will continue her involvement with the magazine, even if she doesn't pop down quite as often.

 

[VGThuy]

I was hoping they'd let Edith become a city girl who needs not care about fighting over the things Mary finds important.

 

[Jenny]

We're likely overthinking this by a long shot, but isn't it possible that Edith might have embraced her new role? She said she was happiest working on the magazine, but that was while she felt she had no real place at home and there was the unpleasantness of keeping secrets and Mary etc. She said the editor was doing a great job, and one can almost fancy Sprat eventually working in London and having the time of his life with Lady Editor and all the smart set in London. Meanwhile, with a family of her own now, Edith might have had more children (for the line of course ), and finally put all her well-bred education to use as the lady of the manor and community leader. I'm not sure she wouldn't have enjoyed the parties either - she seemed quite comfortable at London restaurants and clubs and one might imagine her inviting friends up for weekend parties as well as the formal gatherings her new MIL would likely want to host.

In my fantasies, I'm also thinking about her expanded clothing budget

 

[Tinami Amori]

I am just thinking what part of the ending is not "a perfect happy ending".
- not seeing at least 1 date with Mathew and Lady Editor.
- not enough happy dog shots
- Violet not ending the show with a perky remark
- Lady Edith living with (oh horror in my book) a Mother- in-Law, and a very judgmental one at that... (did they have to spoil it with a mother-in-law?)
- Rose becoming a regular nice girl, and not doing anything provocative.

 

[Artemis@BC]

I am just thinking what part of the ending is not "a perfect happy ending".
- not seeing at least 1 date with Mathew and Lady Editor.
- not enough happy dog shots
- Violet not ending the show with a perky remark
- Lady Edith living with (oh horror in my book) a Mother- in-Law, and a very judgmental one at that... (did they have to spoil it with a mother-in-law?)
- Rose becoming a regular nice girl, and not doing anything provocative.

I'm assuming you mean Tom, not Mathew. And I'm perfectly happy with not actually seeing them together, the hints were enough for me.

If anyone can put up with a judgmental mother-in-law, it's Edith. And they got off on the right foot, MIL respects Edith for her honesty.

But yes, I could have used more dog shots.

 

[cygnus]

But yes, I could have used more dog shots.

Yes- more of the puppy!!!!

 

[sk8girl]

I was disappointed that Molesley and Baxter never did get together. I thought for sure that that was going to happen!

 

[purple skates]

Soooo...after six years let me ask: a Dowager is a widowed Countess or Duchess?

Let me guess, there is no title for Earls or Dukes who are widowers because they are still the Earl or the Duke.

Yes.

 

[Erin]

I was disappointed that Molesley and Baxter never did get together. I thought for sure that that was going to happen!

Me too! I actually thought I had read a spoiler that it was made explicit in the finale and was wondering if I missed it. I guess not.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I'm assuming you mean Tom, not Mathew. And I'm perfectly happy with not actually seeing them together, the hints were enough for me.

If anyone can put up with a judgmental mother-in-law, it's Edith. And they got off on the right foot, MIL respects Edith for her honesty.

But yes, I could have used more dog shots.

Oy, yes. its Tom, not Mathew.

Edith can handle much more than mother-in-law, but why should she? MIL is living in the castle with them, she is "always there", she is bossy, she would want to be "involved' with the family at least to some degree. MIL is "part of the family" and will appear in Edith's life EVERYDAY in the SAME TERRITORY, and will have to be to some degree, taken INTO CONSIDERATION...... (it gives me the creeps just thinking about it... ). Good part is Edith's new hubby is a good estate manager, now he will both own and manage, and some wise-guy majordome will not rip him off...

I am wondering about another "future story": Mary offered Bates to let his son stay with the family nurse during the day. The child will be raised with 2 other kids "upstairs" during the day, but will return to servants' quarters "downstairs" at night. Mary may have another child perhaps. The two kids, Bates' and Mary's (closer in age than 2 other older kids) will grow up together..... I see a plot like "Great Expectations" or "Wuthering Heights"...

 

[Coco]

So Edith's life will be very much like her mother Cora's: a position in the countryside and a very strong willed mother in law. Whodathunkit!

 

[easilydistracte]

Going back to earlier in the season, I was a little surprised that Mary didn't try to make a play to get Bertie for herself once they all found out that he was the heir to his cousin's title.

After the scene with Henry driving Edith to London--in which they seemed to get on quite well as friends--I was halfway hoping that Edith would turn Bertie down and opt for a life as a thoroughly modern woman living in her own flat in London with a fulfilling career and an openly-acknowledged illegitimate daughter. Gregson seems to have left her enough money for her to support herself in some comfort. (I know the thought is somewhat unrealistic for the times--and Edith would probably find herself somewhat ostracized--but certain behaviors are more tolerated in the aristocracy [whatever the era] than the same behaviors are in the middle/lower classes.)

I think my husband and I watch too many murder mysteries because we both kept expecting Dr. Clarkson to announce that he had discovered that Lord Merton was being poisoned and it would turn out to be Merton's son and the son's nasty wife who were trying to kill Merton. Oh, well.

 

[Allskate]

After the scene with Henry driving Edith to London--in which they seemed to get on quite well as friends--I was halfway hoping that Edith would turn Bertie down and opt for a life as a thoroughly modern woman living in her own flat in London with a fulfilling career and an openly-acknowledged illegitimate daughter.

I figured Edith would continue to run the publishing business and also have a guy who loved and respected her. So, that seemed like a good ending. (And I liked the idea of Tom ending up with the editor. Even writing for them. The car business with Henry was just blah.)

Mary was the one who I thought should just turn down all the guys and say she wasn't going to settle and that she'd be fine with George and running the estate. I did think she had better chemistry with Henry than with the other guys she had been considering since Matthew died, but it just didn't make a lot of sense that she would marry him.

I also thought that Daisy would go pursue a career rather than live on the farm and possibly end up with Andy.

And I wanted Isobel with Dr. Clarkson rather than Lord Merton.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Going back to earlier in the season, I was a little surprised that Mary didn't try to make a play to get Bertie for herself once they all found out that he was the heir to his cousin's title.

a) Because she is "Mary" not "Scarlett".. b) because the character of Bertie is timid and boring for Mary's personality c) because Mary wants passion and fun with her partner IN addition to social considerations.

I hope they make "next generation Downton". Are there any petitions started yet?...

 

[Japanfan]

Yes- more of the puppy!!!!

Yes, I wanted more swoonworthy puppy!!

There were a few shots of puppy at the beginning of the final episode, which I watched them a few times, just as I watched the first adorable meeting between Lord Grantham and the puppy several times.

I thought a relationship between Molesely and Baxter was implied, and there were hints of Tom and Lady Editor.

Also hints of Mrs. Pattmore linking up with Mr. Mason, and Daisy linking up with _____ (Henry?) - the dude who just learned to read.

Though I would have liked to see Daisy pursue a new career, having just passed her exams.

 

[Jenny]

I am just thinking what part of the ending is not "a perfect happy ending".
- not enough happy dog shots

We usually pvr'd the show, but every week we'd sit through the Masterpiece sponsors just so the bar at the bottom of the screen would be gone in time for the Puppy Butt.

After the scene with Henry driving Edith to London--in which they seemed to get on quite well as friends--I was halfway hoping that Edith would turn Bertie down and opt for a life as a thoroughly modern woman living in her own flat in London with a fulfilling career and an openly-acknowledged illegitimate daughter. Gregson seems to have left her enough money for her to support herself in some comfort. (I know the thought is somewhat unrealistic for the times--and Edith would probably find herself somewhat ostracized--but certain behaviors are more tolerated in the aristocracy [whatever the era] than the same behaviors are in the middle/lower classes.)

You might enjoy The Bolter by Frances Osborne - the real life story of one of the Happy Valley set

And I wanted Isobel with Dr. Clarkson rather than Lord Merton.

Agree - Lord Merton was such a wimp, and Dr Clarkson was at least her equal in character and intelligence. At least she has Violet.

 

[Artemis@BC]

Two other things that struck me during the finale:

1. Seeing Henry smoking. Not that that was odd, but it was odd that so few of the other characters did smoke. The only other regulars who were smokers were Thomas and O'Brien. If they wanted to be historically accurate, there should have been a lot more smoking going on, especially after the war.

2. Henry and Edith driving to London. Seriously? In that car, and with the roads at that time, they might just have made it in a single day if they started at the crack of dawn. But they started after breakfast, with a stop to see Spratt, and arrived in plenty of time for Edith (with perfectly un-windblown hair) to change and go off to the Ritz.

Mind you I'd always been fairly incredulous at how easy it was for them to hop a train into London (and not even from York, but from the village station), and even get to London and back in a single day.

 

[danceronice]

Going back to earlier in the season, I was a little surprised that Mary didn't try to make a play to get Bertie for herself once they all found out that he was the heir to his cousin's title.

I really wouldn't have seen that at all. Mary had to be on the lookout for a title in the first season because at the time, her only real option other than that was loitering around Downton hoping the new heir was generous to Robert's unable-to-inherit daughters. More than her younger sisters (who wouldn't have inherited anyway as they were younger siblings--it's Mary who would have been able to simply have a title and the estates if it weren't for the entail requiring it go to a male, and she probably would have been happiest and in no rush to marry if she would have been next in line.) Mary's position was always based entirely on who she married until she married Matthew and had a son. But now? She's the mother of the next Earl Grantham. Her priority is Matthew's son and his inheritance, which just happens to be the home she loves and never wanted to leave in the first place. No matter who her second husband is, George is still the heir to Downton. Mary doesn't need to worry about finding someone with rank any more, hard as it was for her to admit it (plus the very reasonable concern that a second husband who didn't understand that life might begin to resent that her priority's always going to be her her firstborn and the estate.) When there was no real option for keeping Downton, a duke or marquess might have been a good compensation, but Mary doesn't need to marry up any more.

 

[danceronice]

Agree - Lord Merton was such a wimp, and Dr Clarkson was at least her equal in character and intelligence. At least she has Violet.

I really deeply suspect that's where they were originally going, and it was just horrific timing for David Robb. I know I would have trouble asking an actor "Okay, I realize your beloved wife just died horribly and you're emotionally devastated, but can you play the second-chance romance thing?" They couldn't 100% avoid it with Mary, but Clarkson's love life wasn't part of the A plot.

 

[maatTheViking]

Two other things that struck me during the finale:

1. Seeing Henry smoking. Not that that was odd, but it was odd that so few of the other characters did smoke. The only other regulars who were smokers were Thomas and O'Brien. If they wanted to be historically accurate, there should have been a lot more smoking going on, especially after the war.

2. Henry and Edith driving to London. Seriously? In that car, and with the roads at that time, they might just have made it in a single day if they started at the crack of dawn. But they started after breakfast, with a stop to see Spratt, and arrived in plenty of time for Edith (with perfectly un-windblown hair) to change and go off to the Ritz.

Mind you I'd always been fairly incredulous at how easy it was for them to hop a train into London (and not even from York, but from the village station), and even get to London and back in a single day.

I just had to look up how far Yorkshire is from London - hmm, yes.

 

[Alixana]

Camilla was given a title.

Camilla became Duchess of Cornwall by marrying Charles who is the Duke of Cornwall (one of his secondary titles). Upon marriage, she is known by his titles, e.g., Princess of Wales (although she doesn't use this because of the late Diana), Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay (when in Scotland), Countess of Carrick, Countess of Chester, Baroness Renfrew ...

 

[skategal]

I think my husband and I watch too many murder mysteries because we both kept expecting Dr. Clarkson to announce that he had discovered that Lord Merton was being poisoned and it would turn out to be Merton's son and the son's nasty wife who were trying to kill Merton. Oh, well.

I thought that was going to happen too!

 

[Coco]

Somehow, Baroness Renfrew is a great name for Camilla.

 

[elka_sk8]

I really deeply suspect that's where they were originally going, and it was just horrific timing for David Robb. I know I would have trouble asking an actor "Okay, I realize your beloved wife just died horribly and you're emotionally devastated, but can you play the second-chance romance thing?" They couldn't 100% avoid it with Mary, but Clarkson's love life wasn't part of the A plot.

Wasn't sure what you all were referring to with Nuchelke Dovkery but then read that her fiancé passed away in Decenber. How terribly sad.