Decisions of the ISU Council: Stockholm Worlds (March 22-28) still on; Synchro Worlds cancelled; 2021 Grand Prix schedule/Beijing test event announced

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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Yeah, but skating is not the only sport that has imposed some kind of level of mastery in order to get into Worlds, and I personally don't mind that. Skaters get media exposure all the way down to Junior Grand Prix events now, and they don't need a Worlds to be finally 'seen' like used to be the case. And even then, some skaters were getting sent to worlds with absolutely zero chance of getting out of the rarely-aired QR. And I commented above about the judging and tech panels -- regardless of how much you've volunteered for the sport and love it, it really did have to be taxing for those judges in the late 2000s with all of those skaters.
I guess so.

But from the skater's perspective, saying that they participated at a world championships holds so much more prestige than the Santa Claus Cup.

Further, developing nations back in the day like China and Korea may never have got the chance to see what they needed to work on in order to become the powerhouse nations they are now.
 

tony

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I guess so.

But from the skater's perspective, saying that they participated at a world championships holds so much more prestige than the Santa Claus Cup.
I'm not disagreeing with that, but there was one poster a while ago who was so determined to say every country should have one entry to Worlds (as was before), even with the influx of skaters from many countries that were not producing skaters even 10 years ago. I questioned whether it would be logical for me to skate for Peru, do my basic doubles and get abysmal PCS scores, and be sent to Worlds just because-- that's essentially what you would be wanting. I don't think so. I think the minimum scores gives skaters a proficiency to work toward and makes the sport better altogether, and I don't find them too strict. Maybe that's just me.

Further, developing nations back in the day like China and Korea may never have got the chance to see what they needed to work on in order to become the powerhouse nations they are now.
But you and I both know that the opportunity for seeing skating at an elite level in general was not what it has been for the last 10-15 years. Even throughout the early 2000s we still were getting minimal Grand Prix coverage, zero JGP coverage, and zero senior B coverage. And if you didn't have something on VCR recording, no chance. Now it's all easily accessible. So it's a different situation.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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I'm not disagreeing with that, but there was one poster a while ago who was so determined to say every country should have one entry to Worlds (as was before), even with the influx of skaters from many countries that were not producing skaters even 10 years ago. I questioned whether it would be logical for me to skate for Peru, do my basic doubles and get abysmal PCS scores, and be sent to Worlds just because-- that's essentially what you would be wanting. I don't think so. I think the minimum scores gives skaters a proficiency to work toward and makes the sport better altogether, and I don't find them too strict. Maybe that's just me.
I'd have loved to see you skate for Peru!
 

tony

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If the ISU really wanted to make it easy and make people :argue: , they could just say 'Skaters/teams who either as a whole or in part have won Olympic or World medals in the past AND have competed this year 'internationally' without the fields to be considered an ISU event, but still having achieved the TES minimums in said events, are permitted entry if selected by their country.' :lol:

And there, you solve it for Zhou and K/F.
 

Karen-W

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If the ISU really wanted to make it easy and make people :argue: , they could just say 'Skaters/teams who either as a whole or in part have won Olympic or World medals in the past AND have competed this year 'internationally' without the fields to be considered an ISU event, but still having achieved the TES minimums in said events, are permitted entry if selected by their country.' :lol:

And there, you solve it for Zhou and K/F.
LOL! But, you're forgetting about Daleman (should she be named to Canada's team)! Just take out the second half of your statement and that gets Daleman a pass too.
 

reut

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Orm Irian

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After prolonged consideration, I have decided that my reaction can best be expressed by quoting an eminent source:

I recognise that the Council has made a decision. But given that it is a stupid-ass decision, I've elected to ignore it. And Worlds.
 

VGThuy

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I don't think there should be any exceptions for minimum TES if Worlds goes ahead. Especially for countries with a large pool of skaters who do hold the minimum.
I do because it seems fairer considering we’re missing a whole normal season of a full slate of international competitions and access to those competitions for all skaters to compete in to try to reach tech minimums for Worlds that they would had competed in if not for the crud, something skaters themselves are no responsible for. The tech minimums and rules required to get them were made before the whole situation changed preventing many skaters one half of the opportunities to achieve minimums. In terms of fairness, there has to be some accommodation done to give those skaters who had no feasible chance to achieve the minimum this season some chance to achieve the minimum for Worlds. There’s no reason to be needlessly harsh to point of being harsher than the ISU originally intended when they made up the original rules unless....
Yep.

I doubt we'd be seeing this much hand-wringing over opportunities to get the TES minimums if it wasn't Zhou and K/F who were missing them.
Unless someone wants target
certain skaters or certain feds because they hate them so much even if it does ignore all the other skaters who are affected and would probably appreciate the extra opportunity to achieve a minimum.

Not providing something to make up for the fact that not all skaters had equal opportunity to reach tech minimums this season when the rules were made with the idea there would be flies in the face of sportsmanship and fairness.
 
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AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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The ISU Council apparently didn't think it was safe enough to hold their own meeting in person, but decided it's safe to run an in-person event with way more people involved, and in closer contact.
That is what I love about governing bodies. Restaurants have been closed in California, ...Unless you are Nancy Pelosi or Gavin Newsome. Governance has it's perks.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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I think.Daleman has had her chance. And more and more. Didn't she blow.off a competition last year so she could be in a beauty patent.🤛

I think the Canadians would best be served getting their newbies in 5here so they can get experience for the next quad.
 

Carolla5501

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So here's my thought.

If the country has skaters that reached the minimum scores then "no exceptions" send the skaters you have and quit whining

If the country doesn't then potentially they could do a video test, but honestly unless they are going to do DRAMATICALLY better videos that some I have seen for other competions I would think that's a bad idea. (After all with proper camera placement and failure to zoom" you can pretty much get by with "cheated jumps" and some other questionable skills because you are so small the judges can't see you... or the Gracie Gold model "if I skate on practice ice in my workout gear it's no pressure so of course I can get the minimum" )

(I think the real outcry is because K/F might not get to go under the current rules. I don't sense the same "outrage" for Zhou)
 

gkelly

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The ISU Council apparently didn't think it was safe enough to hold their own meeting in person, but decided it's safe to run an in-person event with way more people involved, and in closer contact.
It's very easy these days to hold a meeting virtually. The social aspects of a live meeting might not be able to happen, but the actual taking care of business can happen almost as seamlessly by Zoom or similar platform as by gathering everyone in the same physical room.

For a skating competition, the actual scoring of the skating happens with judges and tech panel in the same room as the ice where the skaters are skating.

Yes, it is possible to judge skating on video, but there are some important aspects of the skating (mainly having to do with PCS) that are not at all easily perceived on video, so the results of a virtual competition would likely be different from those of the same competition held live.

In addition, working out the logistics of a virtual competition would require developing new procedures to create as level a playing field as possible. We saw in the US (and Canadian?) events that skaters had different situations of ice time available to them -- size of the rink, quality of the ice, whether they could get the ice to themselves or needed to share with other skaters -- and quality of videography, etc. There would also be a need to ensure that the skater performs each program one time without stopping and that videos of the official performances are not edited before being submitted.

It's one thing to use such procedures, as developed this year by some member federations, possibly with some new details, for purposes of gatekeeping/qualifying who can participate in the big event.

But using a virtual format for the big event itself would result in a completely different kind of event than the usual yearly Worlds (or whatever event we're talking about).

It may turn out that it will not be possible to hold this big gathering in person after all. If so, I don't know whether the ISU has a backup plan to offer a virtual event in place of a second consecutive canceled Worlds. But even if they do, it won't be "Worlds" in the same meaningful sense that a virtual meeting can easily replace a live meeting.
 
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VGThuy

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Let’s be truthful here. If it was Dasa Grm in the same situation, most of the posters here wouldn’t be nearly as worked up about it as they are for two skaters from their own country.
That may be true but you shouldn’t make an unfair rule based on that.
 

vesperholly

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Sondre ODDVOLL BOE (NOR), Davide LEWTON BRAIN (MON) and Christopher CALUZA (PHI) have the Worlds SP minimum and need the FS minimum (Caluza is pretty close at 62.72). ETA: Donovan Carillo (MEX) is closest at 63.80 - just round up, ISU!

Trivia note: Caluza is currently based and skating in Anchorage, Alaska (3Lz clip: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKfQ039JyR4/) with Keegan Messing (backflip on outdoor ice: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKiMhxRpGbO/).
Zhou was also super close in his only international last season - 63.82

 

Japanfan

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I think.Daleman has had her chance. And more and more. Didn't she blow.off a competition last year so she could be in a beauty patent.🤛

I think the Canadians would best be served getting their newbies in 5here so they can get experience for the next quad.

I agree that Daleman has had her chances. And she has also had her successes. And, battled mental health issues and an eating disorder.

If Skate Canada determines that she is the best chance for a competition, that is their decision.

I love Madeleine Schizas (sp?), and think she's going to be a National Champion.
 

MacMadame

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Let’s be truthful here. If it was Dasa Grm in the same situation, most of the posters here wouldn’t be nearly as worked up about it as they are for two skaters from their own country.
I don't know. For one thing, most of the posters in this thread seem worked up about everything so why not this too? :lol:

I don't really know who does and does not have the minimums (except the US skaters mentioned here) but I would imagine that, as is true in most years, most of the skaters chasing them are from smaller feds and are often on the bubble due to a lack of consistent tech content. Then we have all the juniors who moved up to Seniors and maybe don't have the minimums but easily could if only there were comps to go to. And finally, we have newly formed teams. Oh, okay, really finally we have weird cases that are unique like Zhou. (I mean why hasn't he got the minimums? That seems weird. Note: don't explain it. I know the details. I just don't "get" it.)

I supposed you could tell the bubble skaters that it's too bad. If they want to go to Worlds, they should be better skaters. It seems rude to me and also not a way to develop skating in smaller countries but that does seem to be the attitude some people have. The same with the weird cases.

For the new teams, I feel like there are few enough Pairs and Dance teams that the ISU should just say that any team where both partners had the minimums with their old partner now has the minimums. (This sounds familiar. Maybe it's already a rule?) That won't help them all but it should help some.

That leaves Juniors who moved up to Seniors. And personally, I want all the other skaters (bubble skaters, new teams, weird cases) to have their chance too. I don't know what the answer is. But it seems like the ISU should do something for them. I'd like them to help as many skaters as possible. My suggestion is to count any competition they attended this year even if it is a domestic one. And/or count the 18-19 season and not just the 19-20 and 20-21 seasons.

But I also don't care that much. I will watch whatever Worlds we have no matter who does and does not get to go. And, honestly, if Zhou doesn't get to go this year, I think he'll be fine. He's been. He knows how it works. He's not a nervy skater, either. I feel more for K/F because going this year will really help them as a new team. And I bet there are other skaters in a hard place who could have gotten minimums if only there were more comps that they could have attended.
 

tony

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This is something that just came to me:

For skaters that either are a new team, are within a certain amount of the minimums already (whether from junior or senior events in 2020 season), or whatever other case-- such as not being able to compete internationally this season, why can't the ISU allow a select pool of these skaters to submit videos, at set date and time, and then they allow the top X amount in each discipline into Worlds as long as they hit the level determined? They will know the likely number of competitors by the end of February (and the Challenge Cup being finished), and they can determine what they want to cap the fields at via this method.

It would be like a qualifying round that doesn't have to take place during the event, and gives the on the bubble skaters a chance to score high enough to get in.
 

missing

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It’s not unfair if the rule applies equally to everybody though. Or at the least is equally unfair.

Again it’s not like the US doesn’t have other pairs or men they can send. Or Canada other ladies.
There is fair to the federations and fair to the athletes and they are not necessarily the same thing.

Figure skating isn't a team sport. I imagine it could be hard for a skater to say, "Well, it benefits my federation and that's what I really care about."
 

Louis

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I think there's a difference between voluntarily withdrawing from events/opportunities, and all events/opportunities being cancelled or invalidated.

I would support an option for skaters who - through no fault of their own or their federations - could not get a minimum score this season. Which I think would be pretty much anyone. (Did any of the GPs count?) This option could be a pre-Worlds event, if one (or more) is feasible, a video review, or even a qualifying round / skate a day before Worlds officially starts.

That said, I am happy if Worlds goes ahead even if skaters without minimum scores cannot participate.
 

Sylvia

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(Did any of the GPs count?)
No. Re-posting from the other thread:
Only 2020 Nebelhorn Trophy and Budapest Trophy count for ISU SB/PB scores this season: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/entries-results/statistics (scroll down to the links under "Season Best Total Scores 2020/21" and "Technical Score for the current & previous season" where TES minimums also are valid from 2020 Santa Claus Cup in Budapest, Winter Star in Minsk, NRW Autumn Trophy in Dortmund)
 

rfisher

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If the ISU really wanted to make it easy and make people :argue: , they could just say 'Skaters/teams who either as a whole or in part have won Olympic or World medals in the past AND have competed this year 'internationally' without the fields to be considered an ISU event, but still having achieved the TES minimums in said events, are permitted entry if selected by their country.' :lol:

And there, you solve it for Zhou and K/F.
And Savchenko/Massot :swoon:
 

VGThuy

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It’s not unfair if the rule applies equally to everybody though. Or at the least is equally unfair.

Again it’s not like the US doesn’t have other pairs or men they can send. Or Canada other ladies.
That’s a good point. I’m just a bleeding heart. It’s kind of like how courts in the us extended statute of limitations to file lawsuits and such because there was no way for them to meet those deadlines with courts and everything shutting down due to the *********.
 

Karen-W

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And Savchenko/Massot :swoon:
No. Like Daleman, they haven't competed this season in any "international" event. That's why I'd just lop off the "have competed this year 'internationally' without the fields to be considered an ISU event, but still having achieved the TES minimums in said events" portion and just say "Skaters/teams who either as a whole or in part have won Olympic or World medals in the past" because that covers all four of them - Zhou, Daleman, S/M and K/F. And, let's be real, these aren't skaters who are "on the bubble" of being competitive, barring, as I said earlier, an Aymoz or Krasnozhon level meltdown in the SP.
 

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