U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[ross_hy]

I know it's the longest of shots, but can Farris still technically skate at Nationals, given his withdrawal from NHK?

 

[Marco]

I think Tom Z is just pushing Max and Vincent, but with different strategies, so that at least one of them makes the O team.

I think the team will be Nathan, Adam and Vincent. Adam and Jason are fighting the one spot, and Vincent and Max are fighting the other.

 

[misskarne]

I think the team will be Nathan, Adam and Vincent.

A completely logical conclusion to draw when Max has comprehensively outskated Vincent head to head twice now.

 

[ilovepaydays]

Call me silly, but can’t we just wait and see what happens at U.S. Nationals? I’ve always thought that it should be treated like an Olympic Trials anyway. That mentality works well enough for American swimming and track & field.

And with the Olympics just about a month later, you should be ready to go in early January anyway.

 

[Vagabond]

Tom Z. coached Jeremy Abbott and Joshua Farris for years and they didn’t have these program/PCS problems. Were they just always that fundamentally different skaters? Or did Yuka Sato/Jason Dungjen & Christy Krall/Damon Allen do that much miracle work?

It's my understanding that all credit is due to Abbott and Farris's earlier coaches. Also, IINM, Abbott learned and competed in ice dance at some point when he was a young skater.

 

[Sylvia]

(see Camden P. whose last name I need to learn to spell for a recent example)

Camden Pulkinen.

I know it's the longest of shots, but can Farris still technically skate at Nationals, given his withdrawal from NHK?

No, AFAIK. 12 men have qualified via Sectionals this past weekend:

Easterns 1-4: Tim Dolensky, Jimmy Ma, Kevin Shum, Emmanuel Savary
Mids 1-4: Alex Johnson, Tomoki Hiwatashi, Jordan Moeller, Ben Jalovick
Pacifics 1-4: Sean Rabbitt, Daniel Kulenkamp, Scott Dyer, Sebastien Payannet

I've been informed that there are 9 byes to Nationals - they should be: Nathan, Vincent, Jason, Grant, Ross, Adam, Max, Alex Krasnozhon and Andrew Torgashev.

 

[Marco]

Is Josh training at all?

 

[misskarne]

Is Josh training at all?

He hasn't said anything either way, and his word, or his coaches', is the only one I will accept on the matter.

 

[Jaana]

A completely logical conclusion to draw when Max has comprehensively outskated Vincent head to head twice now.

At this moment Chen seems to be a lock at the Nationals, but Aaron needs to outskate there everyone else, not just Vincent, IMO.

 

[misskarne]

At this moment Chen seems to be a lock at the Nationals, but Aaron needs to outskate there everyone else, not just Vincent, IMO.

The poster I was quoting made it very much about the Max vs Vincent argument, which there is no question over who is winning that.

 

[olympic]

I do think that Jason, Adam and Max are close enough in scoring this season that their performances at Nationals will determine who goes to the Olympics. I'm not sure about Vincent. Nathan does not have to worry about it IMO. But, we have to wait and see how Adam performs at SA, then how the 2nd American skates at the GPF.

 

[Jun Y]

Kudos to USFSA for sending Krasnozhon and Torgashev out during Sectionals so that a few less known skaters than qualify for Nationals. I watched PC Sectionals yesterday and really liked Kulenkamp and Dyer's free skates. I have seen the former a number of times before and never had much of an impression, but he skated beautifully yesterday (even though the music is Groban ).

I think Vincent has already lost his spot on the Oly team. Putting aside how unstable his jumps appear to be, he just cannot afford to lose so many points on program components in competition with second-tier skaters like Bychenko and Samarin, who can match him on most quads.

 

[toddlj]

Last year at this time, no one predicted a 1-2 of Nathan/Vincent at Nats; Vincent had done passably well in the junior grand prix and did not qualify for the final. At Nats and then again at Jr worlds, he pulled it together. If he skates cleanly with several quads in January, he can make the team. If I was a betting man, I'd still say with his base value and the long odds some on this site are giving him, I'd bet on Vincent.

 

[missing]

I think 3 of the 6 JGP men's finalists are from the U.S.

Are any of them skating senior at Nationals? And if they are, are any of them capable of medalling? And if one does, do you think he'd be sent to the Olympics over a man who's been skating senior all season (the way Polina was sent to the Olympics in 2014)?

 

[Sylvia]

I think 3 of the 6 JGP men's finalists are from the U.S.

Are any of them skating senior at Nationals?

Andrew Torgashev placed 11th in his senior debut at Nationals last year. Alex Krasnozhon is making his senior national debut this year. Camden Pulkinen is staying Junior in the U.S. this year.

Torgashev had rough skates in both programs at CS Warsaw Cup this past weekend, finishing 6th overall (182.78).
Krasnozhon will make his CS debut at Tallinn Trophy this week (eta: he was born in St. Petersburg, Russia and I don't know if he has U.S. citizenship yet).

 

[Dobre]

I think 3 of the 6 JGP men's finalists are from the U.S.

Are any of them skating senior at Nationals? And if they are, are any of them capable of medalling? And if one does, do you think he'd be sent to the Olympics over a man who's been skating senior all season?

The JGP men's field is in a rebuilding stage this season, with almost all the guys who have the jumps to factor at the senior level moving up to the senior international level already in the hope of making a bid for their own Olympic teams.

Kraznozhon could put out two solid skates. He's been very solid over the past two seasons, and I believe he has the highest scores of the JGP men; but I don't think he has U.S. citizenship yet. He hasn't, thus far, gotten credit for a clean quad in competition. He has a solid axel, but doesn't bring in the second mark like the senior men.

Torgashev had one beautiful quad in one competition. He's not getting the axel. He has the second mark, but he just went to his second senior international event and didn't place well again. The body of work isn't there, and I'd be very surprised if he can earn a competitive SP score with his current jump layout.

Pulkinen has a nice triple axel and his presentation has really stepped up this season. But no quad. His total scoring ceiling is not as high as the other guys, and he is not competing as a senior at Nationals anyway.

Hiwatashi landed both a quad toe (I think this is his first clean one in competition) and an axel this season. And he does have the goods for the second mark, with the exception of facial expression. But he needs to build his consistency. He earned two medals on the JGP, but missed the JGPF. And last season, for him, was a wash. His last major international placement was two seasons ago at Junior Worlds. So the body of work isn't there, and he can't get it prior to Nationals because he's out of the final.

All that said, it's going to be a heck of a battle to make the junior men's world team, and these guys are doing a great job representing the U.S. internationally this season.

 

[Spun Silver]

Last year at this time, no one predicted a 1-2 of Nathan/Vincent at Nats; Vincent had done passably well in the junior grand prix and did not qualify for the final. At Nats and then again at Jr worlds, he pulled it together. If he skates cleanly with several quads in January, he can make the team. If I was a betting man, I'd still say with his base value and the long odds some on this site are giving him, I'd bet on Vincent.

FWIW, Vincent has been posting some soul-searching thoughts on Instagram. He is NOT content with his last two skates and does not accept that they reflect his ability!

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't discount Zhou's ability to come to Nationals and skate the way he did last season.

 

[Carolla5501]

The poster I was quoting made it very much about the Max vs Vincent argument, which there is no question over who is winning that.

Well, yes and no.

It depends on what they want. Vincent is trying a much harder program. So the question becomes do they give him credit for that over the higher Grand Prix finishes Max has with a less technically challenging program?

They showed last year that if Vincent actually delivers they will reward him.

Vincent was only about 3 points behind Max at Cup of China. Max isn't leaving him in his dust. I think that it's really going to come down to who of the 4 contenders actually delivers in San Jose.

The truth is that it could go any way. Max, Jason, Vincent and Adam are all capable of great skates and all capable of meltdowns. (Although until this year Jason had tended to avoid the meltdown bug) The problem the Tom Z skater's have is if the jumps desert them it's over unlike Jason and Adam.

 

[misskarne]

Vincent is trying a much harder program.

And failing at it.

So the question becomes do they give him credit for that over the higher Grand Prix finishes Max has with a less technically challenging program?

They shouldn't! Or else what message does that send? "Go right ahead and splatter yourself all over the ice with jumps you can't actually land and we'll still reward you"? JFC.

Vincent was only about 3 points behind Max at Cup of China. Max isn't leaving him in his dust. I think that it's really going to come down to who of the 4 contenders actually delivers in San Jose.

And Max - who was far from perfect himself - beat out Vincent by fifteen points at IdF. And that was with a very generous tech caller who clearly went on holiday during Vincent's skate.

I have an awful feeling this is once again going to come down to the tech caller at Nationals and if Max gets screwed again by a marshmallow-soft tech panel I'm going to hit the damn roof.

 

[Vagabond]

I have an awful feeling this is once again going to come down to the tech caller at Nationals and if Max gets screwed again by a marshmallow-soft tech panel I'm going to hit the damn roof.

 

[ilovepaydays]

It depends on what they want. Vincent is trying a much harder program.

And failing at it.

I am glad that the younger guys are willing to put quads in programs - because I think putting it off this long has not been good for Jason - and were skaters like Adam and Joshua ever really great at quads? Did any of them have something like a single 4T in their programs as juniors?

But this trend of having programs with 334,763,862 quads and quad combos when the jumps themselves aren’t even ready yet is making a lot of men’s programs almost intolerable to watch when there’s mistakes.

 

[VGThuy]

I will be rooting for both Max and Vincent (and Adam and Jason and Nathan and everyone else) to skate well and let the scores and placements fall where they may. I think in terms of body of work, Nathan will most likely be the only male skater to get that sort of consideration if he wins Skate America and at least medals at GPF. Nobody else has done anything over the other to offset the Nationals result, IMO unless another American man (like Adam) qualifies for the GPF and manages to medal there.

 

[Carolla5501]

And failing at it.



They shouldn't! Or else what message does that send? "Go right ahead and splatter yourself all over the ice with jumps you can't actually land and we'll still reward you"? JFC.



And Max - who was far from perfect himself - beat out Vincent by fifteen points at IdF. And that was with a very generous tech caller who clearly went on holiday during Vincent's skate.

I have an awful feeling this is once again going to come down to the tech caller at Nationals and if Max gets screwed again by a marshmallow-soft tech panel I'm going to hit the damn roof.

But your message seems to be "we are going to judge based on what you did at earlier events not Nationals" (Especially if it's in favor of the skater you like. I have a feeling that if it was the other way around between Max and Vincent you would be saying 'the earlier skates shouldn't count at all")

And if you look at the scoring, you get a lot points for "splatter" on a quad If it's rotated before you splatter so it's not just USFSA saying that.

I honestly think no one beside Nathan has made a clear case for their spot on the team and they are going to have to actually show up at Nationals and skate! And I think that favors Vincent and puts the third spot between Jason and Max based on recent history. Now I could easily be wrong but... I think Adam is the longest shot and its' a toss up on the other three . (That short program is not going to help LOL!) IF it does come down to Jason and Max, Max can't afford to miss a SINGLE jump because there's no way his skating skills measure up well to Jason. (Max's short is better than Adam's, but his long is weaker IMHO)

 

[Carolla5501]

FWIW, Vincent has been posting some soul-searching thoughts on Instagram. He is NOT content with his last two skates and does not accept that they reflect his ability!

I agree they don't reflect his ability. I am not sure soul-searching on Instagram is the solution however

 

[misskarne]

I am glad that the younger guys are willing to put quads in programs - because I think putting it off this long has not been good for Jason - and were skaters like Adam and Joshua ever really great at quads? Did any of them have something like a single 4T in their programs as juniors?

Josh's first clean 4T was at JGP Lake Placid in 2012. It was a real beauty, too. Like Nathan and Max, Josh has never had to rely on favours from the tech panel to rack up points.

 

[Marco]

Jason, Max and Vincent have each skated strongly and poorly at least once so far this season. They each won some medals (Vincent at Finlandia and Max and Jason at a GP) but none qualify for the GPF. Jason had some BOW based on his top 7 Worlds and 4CCs placements last season and Vincent won Jr Worlds. But IMO this is not that significant.

Adam has SA this weekend - if he medals and makes GPF, he will be favoured over these three because the BOW achievement is more current. If he bombs / somehow does not make GPF, all four of them will head to Nationals on somewhat equal footing and best 2 out of 4 will be named.

 

[Sylvia]

Sarah Brannen spoke to Tim Dolensky, Curran Oi (who is still coached by Matt Savoie; a photo of them is included the linked gallery) and Emmanuel Savary, among others, at Eastern Sectionals: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/11/20/262171988
Dolensky excerpt:

"The whole year I've had a little bit of tendinitis on and off in my left ankle, so I had to be careful how many quads I try each day," Dolensky said. "It's kind of a constant balance between wanting to work on it and be consistent, and keeping my body healthy."
Dolensky won the Philadelphia Summer International in August, but things went awry at the U.S. International Classic in Salt Lake City, where he finished sixth.
"With what I had to do, I couldn't afford that this year," Dolensky said. "I learned something in particular at that competition, and I'm taking that forward with me."

Alex Johnson is the sole U.S. man listed for Golden Spin of Zagreb, December 6-9.

 

[olympic]

FWIW, Vincent has been posting some soul-searching thoughts on Instagram. He is NOT content with his last two skates and does not accept that they reflect his ability!

I have found that writing out your feelings is a tool encouraged by therapists / psychologists. It really helps sort out negativity or feeling bad. I hope that is why Vincent did it. I hope it wasn't Vincent pulling an Ito and feeling he needed to apologize to the public / establishment / nation.

 

[Sylvia]

An article was written about Vincent's social media post in his hometown paper: http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/19/palo-alto-teen-skating-star-shares-emotional-moment/

Nick McCarvel wrote an article on Vincent that was published before he competed in France: https://www.teamusa.org/News/2017/N...ne-And-Making-Strong-Push-For-US-Olympic-Team