Russian women news & updates, 2021-22 season

[hanca]

I feel like you are being willfully blind. You know they control what their skaters eat, keep their parents away from them, weigh them every day and dis them on social media. They also practice up to 12 hours a day. Even professional athletes in endurance and strength-based sports don't practice that much.

All of this was before one of their skaters failed a drug test. There is no way that they shouldn't be investigated for that.

No, I am not wilfully blind. I do agree that they should be investigated. Definitely! I just don’t think it has been proven (yet) that they abuse children. There are definitely things that raise concern, but all those bits taken out of interviews, it doesn’t really gives the full accurate picture. When you investigate something, you hear something and ask many questions to clarify whatever was said, to get the most accurate picture of what’s going on. In interviews, they don’t ask those questions so it can be easy interpreted wrongly or take out of context.

For example - keep them away from their parents - this came out in connection with Zagitova. We don’t know the details of what was going on between Tutberidze and Zagitova’s mother, but whatever it was, it seems Tutberidze decided not to coach Zagitova if her mother was around. It doesn’t seem as a standard practice in their group, for example, Lipnitskaya’s mother was even made a part of the coaching team. A few years back Tutberidze also spoke in some interview how some parents are coming to watch the practice. (Was it Voronov who had his parents at every session? I don’t recall the details.) Coaching is not only about working with the students; it involves also working together with the students’ families towards a joint goal. From whatever reason, Tutberidze felt she can’t work together with Zagitova’s mother. Nevertheless, it was the family’s decision to have Zagitova living with her grandmother and be coached by Tutberidze, rather than the option of Zagitova living with her mother and be coached by someone else. Being coached in Tutberidze’s group is not compulsory! So why is Tutberidze blamed for the separation? Do we have details about how often Zagitova could see her parents? She could have seen them every weekend. Many children have to live temporarily with their grandparents, for variety of reasons. Do we know what relationship she has with her parents, and what relationship she has with her grandmother? You decided that this was a sign of abuse, named it as one of the things to prove that Tutberidze is abusive, but is it possible that living with her grandmother was actually a satisfactory arrangement for everyone involved? Especially when it was meant to be temporary, for a year or two, and could have been easily stopped if it wasn’t working - the family could have easily decide that it wasn’t working, send Zagitova back to her parents and change coaches.

 

[muffinplus]

"Keeping away from parents" is really stupid. Given the level of involvement Sasha's father and Anna's mother have. (Anna's mom doesn't really interfere in the training process, but she has said she attends almost every practice). She probably doesn't want the parent to interfre with the training process, but it doesn't mean she gets to keep parents away, that's laughable

 

[soogar]

But I hope you can clarify your point about the money and the girls and how it brings out the worst in them.

It seems to me, that the women are the most lucrative in terms of endorsements and interest from the public. It was the same in the US when the ladies were winning. The Instagrams of Eteri's skaters are full of sponsored posts and they get commercials. T&M have relatively sparse Instagram activity. I'm not in Russia, but I don't think they are getting a lot of commercials. It's just harder to package a pair than singles skaters. I also think that Eteri is all about maximizing the short peak of a female skater.

It's clearly not the same for pairs or ice dance. They need years to develop, and men peak much later, therefore the long game is most beneficial. This is also her first foray into pairs and she was fortunate that this pair team was ideal in that they were already a great team with all the technique, they just needed correct packaging and a dedicated coaching team and ice. She gave that to them.

 

[DreamSkates]

No, I am not wilfully blind. I do agree that they should be investigated. Definitely! I just don’t think it has been proven (yet) that they abuse children. There are definitely things that raise concern, but all those bits taken out of interviews, it doesn’t really gives the full accurate picture. When you investigate something, you hear something and ask many questions to clarify whatever was said, to get the most accurate picture of what’s going on. In interviews, they don’t ask those questions so it can be easy interpreted wrongly or take out of context.

For example - keep them away from their parents - this came out in connection with Zagitova. We don’t know the details of what was going on between Tutberidze and Zagitova’s mother, but whatever it was, it seems Tutberidze decided not to coach Zagitova if her mother was around. It doesn’t seem as a standard practice in their group, for example, Lipnitskaya’s mother was even made a part of the coaching team. A few years back Tutberidze also spoke in some interview how some parents are coming to watch the practice. (Was it Voronov who had his parents at every session? I don’t recall the details.) Coaching is not only about working with the students; it involves also working together with the students’ families towards a joint goal. From whatever reason, Tutberidze felt she can’t work together with Zagitova’s mother. Nevertheless, it was the family’s decision to have Zagitova living with her grandmother and be coached by Tutberidze, rather than the option of Zagitova living with her mother and be coached by someone else. Being coached in Tutberidze’s group is not compulsory! So why is Tutberidze blamed for the separation? Do we have details about how often Zagitova could see her parents? She could have seen them every weekend. Many children have to live temporarily with their grandparents, for variety of reasons. Do we know what relationship she has with her parents, and what relationship she has with her grandmother? You decided that this was a sign of abuse, named it as one of the things to prove that Tutberidze is abusive, but is it possible that living with her grandmother was actually a satisfactory arrangement for everyone involved? Especially when it was meant to be temporary, for a year or two, and could have been easily stopped if it wasn’t working - the family could have easily decide that it wasn’t working, send Zagitova back to her parents and change coaches.

Note: Raf had to keep Nathan Chen's mother from coming to competitions so she would not interfere with what Nathan needed to do in his programs. You can read an interview of Raf saying that Nathan's mother in the 2018 Olympics decided what jumps Nathan put in his SP, which was not practiced. Raf knew Nathan needed to do only what he had practiced due to the pressure of the Olympics. He knew when Nathan told him what jumps he would do, that there would be no chance of a medal. Raf was right. Raf knew what was needed for that - or any - competition. Eteri does also. Keeping parents out of practice is not abusive.

 

[hanca]

So you don't think weighing every day, controlling what your skater eat, and trashing them in social media when they don't perform is wrong? The first is physical abuse and likely to lead to eating disorders. The latter is emotional abuse.

The daily weighing alone is enough for me to say she's a bad coach and damaging her skaters.

My proof is her own words and her skaters' words.

Weighing someone - it is not as unusual at elite sport as you may think. On the other hand, there could be a reason for that. The kids are doing triples and quads. Having weight that is constantly changing, e.g. two kilos up and down, affects the centre of gravity and could be dangerous for the skaters. It increases risks of injuries. When I used to skate (as an adult skater), I used to go on holiday, have all inclusive buffet, put on a few kilos. I came back and expect the jumps and spins to be as they were before. You can’t imagine how differently it felt on the ice. And it wasn’t because of missing skating for a week; it was because the weight the extra weight doesn’t distribute itself equally all over the body - my centre of gravity has moved. So if I struggled with singles, can you imagine the kids having fluctuating weight and trying to do triples or quads? I got concussion because I put on two kilos and didn’t adjust the weight difference fast enough!

Controlling what Tutberidze’s skaters eat. Do you realise that the skaters live with their parents? So they have breakfast and dinner with their families, and lunch is whatever is in the cafeteria or whatever the parents pack for the children. The parents are coming to practice, so they have a chance to see what their kid is eating. How exactly is Tutberidze controlling their food intake? This is not US gymnastics camp where the gymnasts were locked away and were unable to have access to food. This is kids living with their families, and their parents having opportunities to watch the practice. Tutberidze does not provide their meals; that’s not her job.

Trashing them in social media - you are right, I strongly disagree with her doing that. Unfortunately, it is quite ingrained within their culture- they are used to being very open with the media and say what they think. From the western cultural point of view, it is awful. From their point of view, they don’t think it is. It is not anything specific to Tutberidze, Zhulin was complaining about Ilynikh and Katsalapov even 3 - 4 years after they left him! Pluschenko talked about Sakhanovich and Tarakanova. Mishin talked about Nugumanova. Saying that, it is not only Russian coaches who do that. Carroll talking about Gracie Gold, describing the incident with team jacket…

 

[Scott512]

It seems to me, that the women are the most lucrative in terms of endorsements and interest from the public. It was the same in the US when the ladies were winning. The Instagrams of Eteri's skaters are full of sponsored posts and they get commercials. T&M have relatively sparse Instagram activity. I'm not in Russia, but I don't think they are getting a lot of commercials. It's just harder to package a pair than singles skaters. I also think that Eteri is all about maximizing the short peak of a female skater.

It's clearly not the same for pairs or ice dance. They need years to develop, and men peak much later, therefore the long game is most beneficial. This is also her first foray into pairs and she was fortunate that this pair team was ideal in that they were already a great team with all the technique, they just needed correct packaging and a dedicated coaching team and ice. She gave that to them.

Very true and thank you for clarifying.

The short peak of the TT girls has been amazing I guess for a decade.

I think TT did a pretty good move transferring aliona to CSKA because I did not want to see this beautiful skater be like the number six or seven TT girl in the next couple years.

 

[Scott512]

No, I am not wilfully blind. I do agree that they should be investigated. Definitely! I just don’t think it has been proven (yet) that they abuse children. There are definitely things that raise concern, but all those bits taken out of interviews, it doesn’t really gives the full accurate picture. When you investigate something, you hear something and ask many questions to clarify whatever was said, to get the most accurate picture of what’s going on. In interviews, they don’t ask those questions so it can be easy interpreted wrongly or take out of context.

For example - keep them away from their parents - this came out in connection with Zagitova. We don’t know the details of what was going on between Tutberidze and Zagitova’s mother, but whatever it was, it seems Tutberidze decided not to coach Zagitova if her mother was around. It doesn’t seem as a standard practice in their group, for example, Lipnitskaya’s mother was even made a part of the coaching team. A few years back Tutberidze also spoke in some interview how some parents are coming to watch the practice. (Was it Voronov who had his parents at every session? I don’t recall the details.) Coaching is not only about working with the students; it involves also working together with the students’ families towards a joint goal. From whatever reason, Tutberidze felt she can’t work together with Zagitova’s mother. Nevertheless, it was the family’s decision to have Zagitova living with her grandmother and be coached by Tutberidze, rather than the option of Zagitova living with her mother and be coached by someone else. Being coached in Tutberidze’s group is not compulsory! So why is Tutberidze blamed for the separation? Do we have details about how often Zagitova could see her parents? She could have seen them every weekend. Many children have to live temporarily with their grandparents, for variety of reasons. Do we know what relationship she has with her parents, and what relationship she has with her grandmother? You decided that this was a sign of abuse, named it as one of the things to prove that Tutberidze is abusive, but is it possible that living with her grandmother was actually a satisfactory arrangement for everyone involved? Especially when it was meant to be temporary, for a year or two, and could have been easily stopped if it wasn’t working - the family could have easily decide that it wasn’t working, send Zagitova back to her parents and change coaches.

Who is going to investigate TT? I don't think the abuse problems there are anywhere close to what USA figure skating and USA Gymnastics have. And the kids there at TT generally seem happy. some of the make it some of them don't.

Abuse is a tricky situation because some people feel if a coach says move your lazy ass that's abusive. I do not think that is abuse. In many countries that's just tough coaching.

Is spanking abuse? That's a tougher call than saying move your lazy ass what's wrong with you today is abuse.

Very well explained about the parents and the grandparents and the requirements from the coach.

Can you imagine if EG did not change her mind and Alina was really expelled from TT. It was that close to happening and she would not be a Olympic champion. we probably would not know who she is.

 

[Karen-W]

At this point, I'm starting to feel like @aka_gerbil is right and it will be a very, very long time vefore we have to worry about Eteri abusing or not abusing any more Russian girls. If she wants to continue with her current training methods and experimenting, she would do well to get in touch with Shen & Zhao and see what sort of deal the Chinese sports program is willing to invest in. While I'm sure she could be successful outside of Russia, she would have to make some changes if she came to North America or western Europe simply because the number of girls taking up figure skating doesn't give her as large of a pool of potential athletes from which to choose only the very best matched for her brand of success in the sport.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Why do you bother? It is clear that this forum decided that Tutberidze is evil, so whatever supports that opinion must be definitely the truth, even if ‘the proof’ is based on some dodgy mistranslated research. It is not about the truth anymore. Putin has done something awful, which was enough to make people decide all Russians are evil, and ‘the bitch’ Tutberidze is even worse because how dare she produce skaters who constantly beat their own skaters. Why bother waiting for any proof whether she really dopes her skaters, when people here just decided that it is the truth, because they want it to be the truth. I hate what Russia has done done to my country (that’s how people usually feel after being occupied for over twenty years) and yet I could always distinguish between the people who caused whatever happened to my country, and the innocent Russian people who had nothing to do with it. I never held whatever happened during my childhood against Russian skaters and coaches, in fact, I did enjoy their skating because they are good skaters! The hatred at this forum for everything Russian is just unbelievable. There is no point even trying do discuss anything, and especially not now when the psycho president is still alive.

It has been several huge boats, yachts, cruises or whatever that has been confiscated to Russian oligarchs. I am wondering why no one puts a contract on Putin and have the boats as the rewards? Surely if it is several of them, the price must be now several millions? Or, if it is not enough, confiscate more. Houses, apartments, more boats… I know the psycho is heavily protected, but nothing is impossible, if the price is right. (Bloody hell, for several million pounds, I may volunteer to do it myself!)

Please go somewhere your views can be appreciated. It is not here.

 

[hanca]

Please go somewhere your views can be appreciated. It is not here.

Do you always try to shut people up if they express opinions different from your own? Quite honestly, I don’t give a damn whether my opinions are or are not appreciated. I express my opinions, same as anyone else here. If you don’t want to read, don’t read it. It is not as if I am forcing you to read it.

 

[tony]

Please go somewhere your views can be appreciated. It is not here.

^ Post of the century.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Do you always try to shut people up if they express opinions different from your own? Quite honestly, I don’t give a damn whether my opinions are or are not appreciated. I express my opinions, same as anyone else here. If you don’t want to read, don’t read it. It is not as if I am forcing you to read it.

Of course not. You were accusing all of the members here of being complicit (as a group) in negating all things Russian. That is an assertion made of whole cloth.

That is just silly. I thought you might enjoy discussing your opinions somewhere more conducive to an actual discussion. When your assertion is not true, there is nowhere else to go in a conversation.

"Conversations are key to language development, the exchange of thoughts and ideas and listening to each other. People learn by hearing each other's thoughts."

 

[soogar]

I think TT did a pretty good move transferring aliona to CSKA because I did not want to see this beautiful skater be like the number six or seven TT girl in the next couple years.

I don't know how positive that move is. I hope Aliona can find a career with another coach, but Dave Lease made some good points on TSL that she may never be able to find work in Russian shows since she burned her bridges with Eteri and Plushenko. He also said that Rozanov and Richaud are thinking of forming a coaching team in the United States and that she may join them. That is probably all on hold due to the crisis.

 

[hanca]

"Conversations are key to language development, the exchange of thoughts and ideas and listening to each other. People learn by hearing each other's thoughts."

Thank you for the definition. Sadly, I can see you don’t do much of that!

 

[overedge]

Abuse is a tricky situation because some people feel if a coach says move your lazy ass that's abusive. I do not think that is abuse. In many countries that's just tough coaching.

Some people considering it "tough coaching" doesn't stop it being abusive. It is abusive.

If the coach wants the skater to work harder, there's no reason to call them an insulting term, or to call them lazy. Maybe the skater is working hard and the coach doesn't see that. Maybe the skater has an injury, or is having a bad time with other things at the rink, or is having trouble with a particular element and holding back because of that.

If the coach wants the skater to work harder, the mature, responsible way to address that is to have a conversation with the skater about expectations, to make sure they both have the same idea of "hard work", and to find out if the skater is having problems that might be affecting their work ethic.

 

[Vash01]

Who is going to investigate TT? I don't think the abuse problems there are anywhere close to what USA figure skating and USA Gymnastics have. And the kids there at TT generally seem happy. some of the make it some of them don't.

Abuse is a tricky situation because some people feel if a coach says move your lazy ass that's abusive. I do not think that is abuse. In many countries that's just tough coaching.

Is spanking abuse? That's a tougher call than saying move your lazy ass what's wrong with you today is abuse.

Very well explained about the parents and the grandparents and the requirements from the coach.

Can you imagine if EG did not change her mind and Alina was really expelled from TT. It was that close to happening and she would not be a Olympic champion. we probably would not know who she is.

Abuse can depend on culture, perception, etc. Also the era. Some of the things Moskvina did to motivate her skaters could be viewed as abusive now, certainly in the USA.

 

[aka_gerbil]

The USA has its own abusive coaches in multiple sports. I think on the broader scale, if we want to stop abuse in this sport (and all sports) it’s going to require an around-the-world sea change and a lot of active effort.

 

[MacMadame]

Weighing someone - it is not as unusual at elite sport as you may think. On the other hand, there could be a reason for that. The kids are doing triples and quads. Having weight that is constantly changing, e.g. two kilos up and down, affects the centre of gravity and could be dangerous for the skaters. It increases risks of injuries. When I used to skate (as an adult skater), I used to go on holiday, have all inclusive buffet, put on a few kilos. I came back and expect the jumps and spins to be as they were before. You can’t imagine how differently it felt on the ice. And it wasn’t because of missing skating for a week; it was because the weight the extra weight doesn’t distribute itself equally all over the body - my centre of gravity has moved. So if I struggled with singles, can you imagine the kids having fluctuating weight and trying to do triples or quads? I got concussion because I put on two kilos and didn’t adjust the weight difference fast enough!

Controlling what Tutberidze’s skaters eat. Do you realise that the skaters live with their parents? So they have breakfast and dinner with their families, and lunch is whatever is in the cafeteria or whatever the parents pack for the children. The parents are coming to practice, so they have a chance to see what their kid is eating. How exactly is Tutberidze controlling their food intake? This is not US gymnastics camp where the gymnasts were locked away and were unable to have access to food. This is kids living with their families, and their parents having opportunities to watch the practice. Tutberidze does not provide their meals; that’s not her job.

I think you have no idea how eating disorders develop. (And this is why I say you are being willfully blind because we've discussed this and it's well known among professions that deal with children.) Everything Eteri does is what adults are told not to do if they don't want the children they are working with to develop eating disorders. And she doesn't have to control their eating 24/7 for the things she does to be detrimental.

Also, as has been discussed to death here, she not only weighs them daily but they have to do something if they gain more than 200-300g, not 2 kilos. Even though the body naturally fluctuates by 1 kilo due to things like water weight, when it was the last time you pooped. etc. 200-300g is a ridiculous amount to take action on.

Trashing them in social media - you are right, I strongly disagree with her doing that. Unfortunately, it is quite ingrained within their culture- they are used to being very open with the media and say what they think.

Not all Russian coaches trash their skaters in the media.

ETA why we are we calling Eteria Tutberzide TT? (I know I'm going to be sorry I asked this.)

 

[muffinplus]

TT = Team Tuberidze

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

If this drags on and the Russian skating scene ceases to be highly lucrative, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these coaches choose to ride it out with well paying coaching jobs in places like the US. Certainly happened in the post USSR period.

Would be an interesting experiment. I could actually guarantee you that if Tutberidze set up coaching in say Miami she would be instantly booked out. Although her methods would need to adjust if the primary goal was $$$ as it would be a case of coaching who could pay.

It seems that in the sports, music, and art world in the States, Russians have been banned from pursuing their respective art form, or sport. Even Opera singers, and conductors aren't being allowed to perform. With the current doping scandal surrounding one of her top skaters, and the fact that she herself, and her staff are also being investigated, I question if Tutberidze would be hired at any reputable rink in the States, especially in the current climate, created by the Russian invasion in Ukraine. I wonder if Eteri could even make it to the States at this time.

 

[Maximillian]

Please go somewhere your views can be appreciated. It is not here.

I don't necessarily agree with everything the poster you're addressing has said, BUT YOU are the last person who should be posting such an admonition. I mean, REALLY?

 

[BlueRidge]

It seems that in the sports, music, and art world in the States, Russians have been banned from pursuing their respective art form, or sport. Even Opera singers, and conductors aren't being allowed to perform. With the current doping scandal surrounding one of her top skaters, and the fact that she herself, and her staff are also being investigated, I question if Tutberidze would be hired at any reputable rink in the States, especially in the current climate. That is, if she can even make it to the States at this time.

The only Russian artists who are being banned are those who refuse to denounce Putin, primarily people like Valery Gergiev who have known ties to Putin. They are not being banned because they are Russian.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Although her methods would need to adjust if the primary goal was $$$ as it would be a case of coaching who could pay.

She was dissatisfied in the US and went back to Russia because it wasn't enough to be coaching those who could pay and didn't work up to her standards.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

The only Russian artists who are being banned are those who refuse to denounce Putin, primarily people like Valery Gergiev who have known ties to Putin. They are not being banned because they are Russian.

Perhaps you are right in some respects, but athletes are absolutely being banned because of being Russian, and I still believe it will be hard for Eteri to find work in the States, at this time, in the mist of being investigated in a doping scandal involving a minor, and with the current Russian aggression against Ukraine. It'd be different, I think, if a Russian coach were already coaching all along in the States.

 

[BlueRidge]

Perhaps you are right in some respects, but athletes are absolutely being banned because of being Russian, and I still believe it will be hard for Eteri to find work in the States, at this time, in the mist of being investigated in a doping scandal involving a minor, and with the current Russian aggression against Ukraine. It'd be different, I think, if a Russian coach were already coaching all along in the States.

The athletes are being banned because they are representing Russia which is being sanctioned as a country now because of Putin.

I'm just concerned that we be clear that it is not about being Russian. We are already seeing harassment and hate crimes towards Russians in the US and elsewhere, so I think it is an important point.

 

[hanca]

Not all Russian coaches trash their skaters in the media.

Do you want to name those few Russian coaches who don’t trash their students (or ex-students) in media? (You may have to think really hard and I bet it won’t be a very long list!)

ETA why we are we calling Eteria Tutberzide TT? (I know I'm going to be sorry I asked this.)

How dare you not knowing that TT is?

 

[Scott512]

Some people considering it "tough coaching" doesn't stop it being abusive. It is abusive.

If the coach wants the skater to work harder, there's no reason to call them an insulting term, or to call them lazy. Maybe the skater is working hard and the coach doesn't see that. Maybe the skater has an injury, or is having a bad time with other things at the rink, or is having trouble with a particular element and holding back because of that.

If the coach wants the skater to work harder, the mature, responsible way to address that is to have a conversation with the skater about expectations, to make sure they both have the same idea of "hard work", and to find out if the skater is having problems that might be affecting their work ethic.

Agreed. But not all coaches understand the fine line between yelling and being abusive that way or motivating an athlete in another way. EG may not have that gear in between scolding to motivate and using her brains to motivate. I do like your idea of having a conversation with the athlete so they understand what hard training means. Maybe she does that already and we don't know.

But I guarantee you EG does not think she is abusive in any way shape or form or any of the Russian coaches currently coaching top athletes. These coaches would all tell you they had it much tougher when they were a kid. That doesn't make it right it's just the way it is.

 

[overedge]

Agreed. But not all coaches understand the fine line between yelling and being abusive that way or motivating an athlete in another way.

If you agree, they why did you post that you didn't think calling an athlete a "lazy ass" wasn't abuse?

EG may not have that gear in between scolding to motivate and using her brains to motivate. I do like your idea of having a conversation with the athlete so they understand what hard training means. Maybe she does that already and we don't know.

I sincerely doubt that she does.

But I guarantee you EG does not think she is abusive in any way shape or form or any of the Russian coaches currently coaching top athletes. These coaches would all tell you they had it much tougher when they were a kid. That doesn't make it right it's just the way it is.

You don't need to explain to me how abusive coaches justify what they do.

 

[MacMadame]

TT = Team Tuberidze

That wasn't as bad as I was imagining.

Do you want to name those few Russian coaches who don’t trash their students (or ex-students) in media? (You may have to think really hard and I bet it won’t be a very long list!)

I can name two right off the top of my head... Mishin and Moskvina. I'm sure I could name others if I thought about it.

 

[happycamper2554]

That wasn't as bad as I was imagining.


I can name two right off the top of my head... Mishin and Moskvina. I'm sure I could name others if I thought about it.

Didn't mishin trash someone (Nugmanova?) for leaving and then blocked her from going to another group?