Russian women news & updates, 2021-22 season

[hanca]

You cannot possibly be serious.

Of course I am. I actually worked with abused children, so I take abuse very seriously, but what is going on here, it makes me feel like WTF!

 

[Wyliefan]

I am sorry, but I can’t see here four posters who worship a child abuser. All I see is evidence that was taken out of context, lots of assumptions etc. Whatever you are presenting as evidence would not meet the threshold for initiating child care proceedings for abuse. And I would know that, trust me.

Aren't you forgetting one little detail? Namely, THAT THEY FOUND DRUGS IN VALIEVA'S URINE SAMPLE?

 

[hanca]

Aren't you forgetting one little detail? Namely, THAT THEY FOUND DRUGS IN VALIEVA'S URINE SAMPLE?

Of course they did. I don’t dispute that. But can you actually prove that it was Tutberidze or any other of the coaches who did it? Considering that Valieva had access to exactly that medication at home? It seems no one really care how the drugs got into her; most people decided that it must be Tutberidze because it fits with what you want. But court doesn’t work like that. It is based on facts. And at this stage I have not seen a single proof that would prove it was Tutberidze.

 

[Wyliefan]

No, you're right. It must have been Santa Claus that gave them to her.

 

[hanca]

No, you're right. It must have been Santa Claus that gave them to her.

Well, there are parents and granddad around, but if you think that the only alternative to Tutberidze is Santa Claus, you have a serious problem!

 

[Wyliefan]

And if you buy into the theory, you have a bigger one.

 

[muffinplus]

Why do you bother? It is clear that this forum decided that Tutberidze is evil, so whatever supports that opinion must be definitely the truth, even if ‘the proof’ is based on some dodgy mistranslated research. It is not about the truth anymore.

The thing is this twitter thread has not even demonstrated that random collection of sources has anything to do Tutberidze .. but yeah pointing out that and that the statements in the twitter thread are mistranslated/spun bullshit is obviously synonymous with worshipping Tutberidze ( ) as opposed to, you know, someone screaming "Doping! Eugenics! Psychological abusel! Evil!" without even understanding any of the sources quoted...

 

[hanca]

And if you buy into the theory, you have a bigger one.

Fine. I don’t give a damn what you believe. I have my opinion, but I am not hiding that I feel a bit sick about the mob mentality which turned against Russians generally and especially against Tutberidze and her skaters. I never thought I would speak up for anyone who is Russian, as I said - I don’t partner love Russians, but what Valieva and Tutberidze experienced during Olympics made me sick. Hopefully your skaters will enjoy their medals at this world. That should make you happy.

 

[overedge]

The thing is this twitter thread has not even demonstrated that random collection of sources has anything to do Tutberidze .. but yeah pointing out that and that the statements in the twitter thread are mistranslated/spun bullshit is obviously synonymous with worshipping Tutberidze ( ) as opposed to, you know, someone screaming "Doping! Eugenics! Psychological abusel! Evil!" without even understanding any of the sources quoted...

Exaggerating much?

You've made all these claims and cited yourself on Twitter as proof of those claims. You also said that you haven't even bothered to read the entire book, so how do you know that there isn't anything in there that contradicts what you say the study is about or what it found?

Until there's an independent and reliable translation of the original source, then there's no reason to believe that your interpretation is any more credible than the person you're trashing here and on Twitter. And if you think being called out on that is being called a Tutberidze worshipper, then that doesn't do much to improve the credibility of your claims.

 

[muffinplus]

Exaggerating much?

You've made all these claims and cited yourself on Twitter as proof of those claims. You also said that you haven't even bothered to read the entire book, so how do you know that there isn't anything in there that contradicts what you say the study is about or what it found?

Until there's an independent and reliable translation of the original source, then there's no reason to believe that your interpretation is any more credible than the person you're trashing here and on Twitter. And if you think being called out on that is being called a Tutberidze worshipper, then that doesn't do much to improve the credibility of your claims.

huh? I didn't cite myself for any PROOF of anything I linked a picture of Russian language excerpt I'm translating, that I posted on twitter, that was not for proof? I have not read the full 300 pages, but l did read the full section about about "psychophyisological control" to know she spun it, I even showed the screenshot with the Russian text.

Like I said, I could care less what you want to believe. You are the one who does not speak Russian, has not read the sources and is willing to believe whatever someone (not even sure if this "journalist" is a Russian speaker) on Twitter posts that suits your predetermined agenda.

 

[overedge]

huh? I didn't cite myself for any PROOF of anything I linked a picture of Russian language excerpt I'm translating, that I posted on twitter, that was not for proof? I have not read the full 300 pages, but l did read the full section about about "psychophyisological control" to know she spun it, I even showed the screenshot with the Russian text.

Like I said, I could care less what you want to believe. You are the one who does not speak Russian, has not read the sources and is willing to believe whatever someone on Twitter posts that suits your predetermined agenda.

I don't have a predetermined agenda, and I don't believe things on Twitter just because they're on Twitter. If I have an agenda, it's to find out the truth about scientific research from the original sources.

You cited your own post on Twitter as proof that what you said about mistranslations was right. Literally no one else on Twitter responded to that post. You can't cite yourself as proof that you are right. That's not how independent verification works.

No, I haven't read the sources, because they haven't been translated by a reliable independent source, i.e. not you. But you haven't read the sources either. You admit that you haven't read the whole book, while blaming the original Twitter poster for being selective about what she mentioned. Until you've read the entire book - i.e. done what you criticized the original poster for not doing - there's no reason to believe your claims that the original Twitter post got things wrong.

 

[hanca]

I don't have a predetermined agenda, and I don't believe things on Twitter just because they're on Twitter. If I have an agenda, it's to find out the truth about scientific research from the original sources.

You cited your own post on Twitter as proof that what you said about mistranslations was right. Literally no one else on Twitter responded to that post. You can't cite yourself as proof that you are right. That's not how independent verification works.

No, I haven't read the sources, because they haven't been translated by a reliable independent source, i.e. not you. But you haven't read the sources either. You admit that you haven't read the whole book, while blaming the original Twitter poster for being selective about what she mentioned. Until you've read the entire book - i.e. done what you criticized the original poster for not doing - there's no reason to believe your claims that the original Twitter post got things wrong.

And yet you haven’t read the sources yourself, claim you have not predetermined agenda but you are willing to believe that twitter post? (Or even if you are not, there is quite a few people here who also didn’t bother to check, claim that they have no agenda and who took this pseudo research as facts.)

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I am sorry, but I can’t see here four posters who worship a child abuser. All I see is evidence that was taken out of context, lots of assumptions etc. Whatever you are presenting as evidence would not meet the threshold for initiating child care proceedings for abuse. And I would know that, trust me.

If a child described to me not being allowed to eat or drink water, I would have to call to report it. And absolutely it would be investigated. Trust me.

If a child had two broken limbs within a month or two, I would have to report it. And it would be investigated. Trust me.

 

[hanca]

If a child described to me not being allowed to eat or drink water, I would have to call to report it. And absolutely it would be investigated. Trust me.

Of course it would be investigated. And the first question that would be asked would be - where were the parents and what were they feeding the child? Because as far as I am aware, providing food for their students does not fall under the coaches responsibility.

 

[canbelto]

I adore Eteri;s skaters. I loved Janny, Alina, Aliona, Sasha, Anna, and Kamila. What I don't approve of is the child abuse and doping.

And it's naive @hanca to blame the parents. COaches in Russia have a lot of control over their pupils.

 

[Karen-W]

@hanca - it really bothers me that you've reached the conclusion the majority of FSU hates all Russians. You know that simply is not true. Most of us have expressed a tremendous admiration for Liza and the sublime pairs teams that are routinely, consistently produced by Russia. Even the Russian men get a lot of love and appreciation, and you know that Kolyada, for all his inconsistency in landing the quads (and sometimes the triple axels, lol) is lauded for his beautiful skating skills and gorgeous programs. How many people have lamented not seeing his brilliant White Crow program one more time now that we won't see the Russians at Worlds?

There are a lot of things to appreciate about Russian figure skating but what most of us have observed in the women, specifically the ones who train in Eteri's school, does raise significant red flags for the health and well-being of those young women and, in a broader view, the direction of women's skating. I don't know that I believe ALL of the skaters in her school are doping, but it is also hard to ignore comments like Zhulin's and think it isn't a rampant problem not just at Sambo-70 but in all of Russian skating. I'm not ready to tar and feather the whole program but I'm also okay with this pause being forced upon Russian skating by Putin's heinous, barbaric actions.

I certainly don't hate Russia or Russians. I think many of us do find it difficult to understand in some ways, but I also see a lot of us trying to understand and toe that fine line of still loving and appreciating so much about Russian life and culture while condemning the actions of the few bad apples who are spoiling the bushel.

 

[MacMadame]

Because her skaters constantly beat your skaters and you can’t get rid of her any other way?

Her skaters are my skaters. Most of them anyway.

I am sorry, but I can’t see here four posters who worship a child abuser. All I see is evidence that was taken out of context, lots of assumptions etc. Whatever you are presenting as evidence would not meet the threshold for initiating child care proceedings for abuse. And I would know that, trust me.

So you don't think weighing every day, controlling what your skater eat, and trashing them in social media when they don't perform is wrong? The first is physical abuse and likely to lead to eating disorders. The latter is emotional abuse.

The daily weighing alone is enough for me to say she's a bad coach and damaging her skaters.

My proof is her own words and her skaters' words.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Of course it would be investigated. And the first question that would be asked would be - where were the parents and what were they feeding the child? Because as far as I am aware, providing food for their students does not fall under the coaches responsibility.

You worked with abuse victims and yet you don't know that someone other than parents can abuse a child?

 

[muffinplus]

I don't have a predetermined agenda, and I don't believe things on Twitter just because they're on Twitter. If I have an agenda, it's to find out the truth about scientific research from the original sources.

You cited your own post on Twitter as proof that what you said about mistranslations was right. Literally no one else on Twitter responded to that post. You can't cite yourself as proof that you are right. That's not how independent verification works.

I already told you, I cited ONE post from myself not to prove that I'm right but because it contains a screenshot of the Russian text. I already repeated this to you, but you just do not seem to get it, and seem to be insisting that I'm using a twitter post I quoted as verification.

No, I haven't read the sources, because they haven't been translated by a reliable independent source, i.e. not you. But you haven't read the sources either. You admit that you haven't read the whole book, while blaming the original Twitter poster for being selective about what she mentioned. Until you've read the entire book - i.e. done what you criticized the original poster for not doing - there's no reason to believe your claims that the original Twitter post got things wrong.

I have actually read the sources. More than you. In Russian. Even attached some of the sections in screenshots. You haven't. I already told you, there is reason to believe it was wrong, because she fully distorted the term, she also distorted other things she posted from other studies...I did look for the terms that she used (I have the ebook, so I can search and use keywords), and read the full section about "psychophysiological control" which is the only place it was mentioned. You on the other hand have not read anything, don't understand Russian and are willing to believe this because you have predtermined beliefs on the subject considering you liked that post.

Whether one reads the book or not is also not relevant, because as I said, there is still no connection between it and Turberidze. I'm done talking to you... there is literally nothing else to add

 

[AxelAnnie]

Fine. I don’t give a damn what you believe. I have my opinion, but I am not hiding that I feel a bit sick about the mob mentality which turned against Russians generally and especially against Tutberidze and her skaters. I never thought I would speak up for anyone who is Russian, as I said - I don’t partner love Russians, but what Valieva and Tutberidze experienced during Olympics made me sick. Hopefully your skaters will enjoy their medals at this world. That should make you happy.

Well, it was the gamble they took and the price they paid. The spectacle o(f Kamilla sobbing should have been shut down immediately. All they had to do was surround her, or walk her behind a curtain. That was inhuman, and totally within Tutberidze's control.
And then poor Trusova. Her score was a joke, and her treatment (lack of compassion, was horrifying. Surely someone could have taken this young woman and found a quiet place to talk, or grieve or be angry or whatever. And then, Anna the newly crowned OGM...wandering around in a fog. The whole thing was just a shonda a Yiddish term that covers it all. (disgrace, a shame, a terrible embarrassment, a scandal)

 

[hanca]

You worked with abuse victims and yet you don't know that someone other than parents can abuse a child?

No, that’s not what I said! Of course someone else than the parents can abuse the child. But I don’t think that based on what is known one can definitely say there is abuse going on from the coaches.

 

[MacMadame]

But I don’t think that based on what is known one can definitely say there is abuse going on from the coaches.

Even though they've admitted to some of it?

 

[hanca]

Even though they've admitted to some of it?

What exactly did I admit?

 

[MacMadame]

What exactly did I admit?

Are you a they? Sambo-70 has admitted to practices that are abusive. So have their skaters.

 

[hanca]

Are you a they? Sambo-70 has admitted to practices that are abusive. So have their skaters.

So what exactly they admitted? That they are abusing children? That they are starving them?

 

[starrynight]

A lot of this is probably academic because if things continue as they are it will probably be quite some time until the Russians return to international competition.

It’s very hard to predict what will happen next. I do feel sad that I may never see Tuktamysheva compete internationally again.

A protracted ban and economic strife may also have a lot of flow on effects in terms of how coaching systems operate and if things continue as they did before. It may be that some coaches need to make a choice between money and National allegiance in choosing how and where they coach - as has happened in the past. It’s also possible that hype and fashions will have changed by the time Russia re-enters the scene.

Although the scenes at the Olympics were hard to watch, there seems little can be gained agonising over it. I’ve certainly realised over the last week that the Russian system doesn’t care what anyone else thinks.

 

[MacMadame]

So what exactly they admitted? That they are abusing children? That they are starving them?

I feel like you are being willfully blind. You know they control what their skaters eat, keep their parents away from them, weigh them every day and dis them on social media. They also practice up to 12 hours a day. Even professional athletes in endurance and strength-based sports don't practice that much.

All of this was before one of their skaters failed a drug test. There is no way that they shouldn't be investigated for that.

 

[Xela M]

Why do you bother? It is clear that this forum decided that Tutberidze is evil, so whatever supports that opinion must be definitely the truth, even if ‘the proof’ is based on some dodgy mistranslated research. It is not about the truth anymore. Putin has done something awful, which was enough to make people decide all Russians are evil, and ‘the bitch’ Tutberidze is even worse because how dare she produce skaters who constantly beat their own skaters. Why bother waiting for any proof whether she really dopes her skaters, when people here just decided that it is the truth, because they want it to be the truth. I hate what Russia has done done to my country (that’s how people usually feel after being occupied for over twenty years) and yet I could always distinguish between the people who caused whatever happened to my country, and the innocent Russian people who had nothing to do with it. I never held whatever happened during my childhood against Russian skaters and coaches, in fact, I did enjoy their skating because they are good skaters! The hatred at this forum for everything Russian is just unbelievable. There is no point even trying do discuss anything, and especially not now when the psycho president is still alive.

It has been several huge boats, yachts, cruises or whatever that has been confiscated to Russian oligarchs. I am wondering why no one puts a contract on Putin and have the boats as the rewards? Surely if it is several of them, the price must be now several millions? Or, if it is not enough, confiscate more. Houses, apartments, more boats… I know the psycho is heavily protected, but nothing is impossible, if the price is right. (Bloody hell, for several million pounds, I may volunteer to do it myself!)

I think there are MANY contracts out on his life, but it's not so easy to get him. People tried and failed to kill Hitler

 

[starrynight]

If this drags on and the Russian skating scene ceases to be highly lucrative, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these coaches choose to ride it out with well paying coaching jobs in places like the US. Certainly happened in the post USSR period.

Would be an interesting experiment. I could actually guarantee you that if Tutberidze set up coaching in say Miami she would be instantly booked out. Although her methods would need to adjust if the primary goal was $$$ as it would be a case of coaching who could pay.

 

[Scott512]

I honestly think that T&M really benefitted from Eteri's organizational skills. She assembled a great team to work with them, and organize their ice. I think Eteri's team gave T&M programs that showcased them to their best abilities. Eteri has great attention to detail and really finds ways to best suit the individual skater. That really seems to get lost with the issues she has with the ladies. She clearly knew how to work with this older pair as well because they both remained healthy this season. Her daughter also remained healthy. Even Morisi has benefitted from training with her and he seems healthy and happy as well.

I think that the opportunities and money with the girls brings out the worse in them.

Is interesting point after interesting point. The coach really does have an amazing ability 3 to find ways to best suit the individual. Her organizational skills really helped TNM maximize their game this season. I don't think anybody expected them to skate gold medal worthy at the Olympic Games against the top Chinese team and the number one rushing team. The problem is for the last 10 years she's had so many elite ladies that's a elite ladies it's it's a blessing and occurs at the same time.

I'm not saying EG will focus less on the ladies but I think she would like to get another male skater at a high level and she may have to poach him from somebody else. She would also probably like a really young pair's really young pearstine that's world class. B and K come to mind. I'm sure they noticed how great T and M were this season especially at the Olympic Games.

But I hope you can clarify your point about the money and the girls and how it brings out the worst in them.