U.S. Ice Dance 2019-20 season news & updates

[jiejie]

All the US senior teams need to get that Finnstep nailed. With the possible exception of Hubbell/Donohuse, they are losing valuable points in the RD on this element.

I agree with a poster above, that both RD and FD material for most US teams, is generally poor and not showcasing teams' strengths. It's going to bite them in the collective buns, when those ISU championships roll around. Except for Chock/Bates, who seem very well received by the judges, despite all the Egyptian arms and hands in the FD.

My favorite US team this year is turning out to be junior team Nguyen/Kolesnik.

 

[firstflight]

C/B’s FD is entertaining, and that’s what the judges seem to be wanting. Just like how Fear/Gibson got a rousing ovation, some standing, at NHK and continued to be rewarded. C/B’s FD does have one annoying aspect to me: the identity of the dance moves even though the program is called Egyptian. Is it belly dancing? Are they doing Bhangra at one point?

 

[Sk8tn]

All the US senior teams need to get that Finnstep nailed. With the possible exception of Hubbell/Donohuse, they are losing valuable points in the RD on this element.

I agree with a poster above, that both RD and FD material for most US teams, is generally poor and not showcasing teams' strengths. It's going to bite them in the collective buns, when those ISU championships roll around. Except for Chock/Bates, who seem very well received by the judges, despite all the Egyptian arms and hands in the FD.

My favorite US team this year is turning out to be junior team Nguyen/Kolesnik.

Losing points on Finnstep worries me about C&B, H&B, Gilles and Poirier, and Stefanova and Bukin too. If Sinitsina and Katsalapov remain 2nd, those lost Finnstep points will bear a lot of blame.

 

[Jammers]

I think with the struggles that both C/P and M/C are going through i expect if N/K run the table on the JGP and win the JGPF and Junior Worlds i would expect them to turn Senior next season even being as young as they are. I think they have something special that the other younger teams don't have.
Avonley is a star.

 

[aftershocks]

I'm a Shibs uber but I do not want them to come back.

Why? Because of all the backlash and dislike against them and the politics they'd be up against internationally? Or because you think it would take away from up-and-coming U.S. teams? Actually, I think the Shibs are very much missed on the current scene (of course Zhulin and Rusfed don't miss them ).

One reason the ShibSibs are missed is because they were the steady, technically proficient U.S. team who were very hard to keep down due to their technical brilliance and calm under pressure. They were also wise in the way they went about gathering outside-the-box ideas from a variety of sources to craft creative programs with wonderful impact in the last few seasons of their competitive career. They achieved a lot against the odds, and in some quarters they are still disliked and put down because they were so good at being focused on positively weathering the challenges and the backstabbing, and prevailing against some considerable odds.

With the political maneuvering going on to keep the top Russian teams solidly in podium contention, Hub/Don have been targeted as being vulnerable, despite their huge talent. Meanwhile, Chock/Bates have staged an engaging comeback under the guidance of Dubreuil/ Lauzon, but as we have seen played out on the GP, Zhulin appears to have a rock-solid hold on keeping SinKats in silver medal holding pattern, whilst Rusfed otherwise has babyface & beauty (S/B) also solidly in the mix despite the drawbacks/weaknesses of these Russian teams. Having rock-solid Shibs out of the picture has been hugely beneficial to the Russians' political machinations, along with the retirements of Cap/Lan, Weav/Po, et al. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens at Montreal Worlds re the chances and placements of Gil/Poi, Cho/Bat, Hub/Don and S/B.

Regarding other up-and-coming U.S. teams, they aren't seen to be as strong (largely because of their youth, not because they aren't good). In any case, they are more easily disregarded or stymied. It hasn't helped Hay/Bak that they didn't come up with material which may have at least kept them in top contention, instead of dropping amidst the ranks of strong, hungry teams. Although Car/Pon have Shpilband's political know-how and wiliness in their corner, they are a young, growing team who are still improving and learning. As well, Mc/Carp have been injured and did not get off to a good start this season after doing so well and beautifully contending for the GP podium last season (winning bronze at GP Finland). Obviously, that made no difference to judges' perceptions of M/C this season at their only GP, where they were apparently scapegoated to last place (please save those arguments as to why the judges placed M/C last at NHK -- in part, it's simply bad luck along with politics). Meanwhile, the new team of Green/Parsons are showing a lot of promise, but they are unlikely to make huge headway internationally in this current quad, particularly in view of the increasing depth and political maneuvering that's beginning to dominate ice dance once again.

 

[aftershocks]

I think the only way the Shibs would bring more excitement is if they came back with different partners.

That's definitely not gonna happen in any case. And frankly, we don't really know if the Shibs are actually entertaining any thoughts of coming back to the overly political fray that is the sport of figure skating, especially that currently exists once again in ice dance. In fact, they probably aren't coming back, so we'll never know what they might have brought of an exciting and unique nature, which is simply put, our loss. The Shibs surely wouldn't and won't come back without something new and different to put forth on competitive ice. My view is: the current scene is not worth them wasting their time and effort coming back. They weren't as fully appreciated in some quarters as they should have been when they were kicking ass and taking no prisoners. A big lesson is: They NEVER allowed the dissing, put downs and the backlash from their 2011 World bronze medal victory to hold them back from achieving their goals!

I hope they are happy and simply looking at it as the world being their oyster! They made their mark in the sport of figure skating (ice dance discipline) and they don't need to 'come back.' I've got some creative ideas for the Shibs (based on something that was once discussed in their fan thread), but I don't really know how to present it to them. They are so good and still young, so it'd be great if they could generate some support and financial backing toward doing something creative and exciting for fans outside the current competitive track (especially if they decide not to come back for 2022).

 

[Sylvia]

@rosewood posted this 11/14/19 clip from the Shibs' interview (in which Alex said they planned to "make a decision hopefully in the coming year" about Beijing 2022) in their fan thread:

朝日新聞 映像報道部 on Twitter

“https://t.co/ktrNaYP6fC アイスダンスの #シブタニ兄妹 が２０２２年北京冬季五輪について語ってくれました。Alex and Maia talked about #beijing2022 .(啓）#フィギュアスケート #figureskate #シブタニ兄妹と滑ろう #shibsibs #shibutani https://t.co/iAF85mP1dD”

twitter.com

Jean-Christophe Berlot spoke to Chock/Bates, Dubreuil & Haguenauer in Grenoble (Nov. 7 article):

Madison Chock, Evan Bates back on Grand Prix circuit with ‘new power’

The 2015 U.S. ice dance champions moved to Montreal to train following a ninth place finish at the PyeongChang Olympics.

olympics.nbcsports.com

 

[aftershocks]

I think they overplayed the Coldplay theme.

I guess you could say that about Adam Rippon too, eh. AdaRipp used his 'O' /The Birds fp two years in a row, and his fans never tired of seeing it because it's a great program and it worked so wonderfully well for him. The Shibs tweaked their final competitive season's FD and ultimately they prevailed with flying colors, and then some! No one can take away or diminish their amazing victories and their badass talent, so stop trying.

 

[aftershocks]

I am pretty sure that several junior and senior [Canadian] teams looked at the changed landscape [re V/M coming back] and looked at their resources, and decided that the chances of them doing better or progressing were less than what it could cost them to keep competing...

Exactly. The gorgeous Nicole Orford/ Asher Hill, were one of those senior Canadian teams who sadly saw the writing on the wall, and called it a career:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZzsD-FYbQQ

Still, I have no issue with V/M coming back. I understand why they did. It's the sport's problem that they felt the need to because they still had the burning desire to meaningfully compete and few to no options to do so in a professional capacity... V/M desired to keep growing and challenging themselves and they did, thus in some ways pushing boundaries that made P/C even better, eh. P/C inspired V/M to be better, and vice versa.

The OP clearly stated Madi and EVAN. They did not skate to Romeo and Juliet last year. You are discussing a different team.

Well, the OP clearly made a mistake when they mentioned Evan because DL of TSL referenced Madi & Zach in regard to Renee Roca, NOT Maddie & Evan.

Oh, wait a minute, maybe I was the OP. Slip of the 'Evan' then. Of course, I meant Zach. Addendum: I'm sorry... I already posted a correction about this previously in this thread, but coming back into the thread, I'd forgotten this was already settled, and it's minor at that.

 

[Dobre]

The Shibs will make their own decision about the future. I've no expectations of their coming back, and I will love watching them if they do. (I miss them all the time, especially when I attend live events). I wasn't going to post anything in response to the quote because, I mean, we will know if they are back. It won't be a quote in a magazine. It would be the news that they are working with coaches and/or working on new programs. And their names on an entry list.

I did want to share, though, that every time I attend an ice dance event in Canada--at last year's GPF and this year's SC--the Canadian fans sitting next to my mother & I ask about the Shibs. (Without us bringing them up, which of course, we happily would). Anyway, Maia and Alex are clearly not only missed by yours truly.

Which is kind of fun as I remember sitting in the audience prior to their breakthrough at SC in 2015, telling a couple people sitting next to us that we loved the Shibs, and being asked what country they were from. As the Skating World Turns.

 

[manhn]

Athletes like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic can play and dominate in their 120s and people generally are okay with that (okay, not everyone, people on tennis forums are a nasty bunch).

Lower profile sports really make it hard for athletes and fans to support and desire long term athletes.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Completely different sports though...

I can't wait to see how their FD has changed since we saw them last! I hope they have a great competition!

I thought Mc/Carp looked good, but maybe better eyes can say why they were scapegoated to last place at NHK. Too much depth, and someone had to be put in last place? Soucisse/Firus didn't like being there in the RD, so it was Mc/Carp's turn in the FD?

I know! for M/C really struggling here scorewise. I didn't think their actual skating looked too bad. And C/P looked disappointed too.

I didn't see any visible mistakes from Mc/Carp, but Car/Pon actually had a visible error in the FD (he failed to quickly catch her leg properly on the twirling carry lift, which slowed them down to almost slow motion). That's why they dropped in the standings.

With Mc/Carp ending up last, it may be partly a matter of depth I suppose, and politics re the judges not putting the newbie to senior Russian team at the bottom of the heap instead. Mc/Carp were seemingly seen as vulnerable with only one GP since they are coming back from an injury. Plus, the new status quo may be against North American teams from the next generation making forward progress over Russian teams.

ETA: Which doesn't mean this is a foregone conclusion or a good thing, or a welcome turn-of-events that should be taken lying down by any U.S. team or fans!

 

[aftershocks]

Has a team in recent memory squandered so many clearly "handed to them on a silver platter" placements as C&P?

Hubbell/Donohue?

The best C/P would have gotten at NHK was 5th, so they dropped 1 spot. H/B also lost to W/L, in both RD and FD, so I don't think C/P have slipped in the nat'l standings/rep that much. Skating aggressively and clean at Nats will be key, but they would have needed to do that anyway. (And their NHK FD score was still higher than H/B's in China.)

Eh, politics is always a factor in international competitions, particularly now with all of the jockeying for position during this transitional quad. National standings and the upcoming U.S. Nationals battle will not have a great deal to do with what has happened on this current GP. C/P simply made a mistake in the FD or they would have placed well. It was the luck of the draw or current points values which had C/P competing in the last group instead of Mc/Carp who had a slow start to this season and only one GP, due to injury. Skating in the last group can make a difference. Mc/Carp didn't have that same advantage. It actually doesn't ever help to make a mistake that causes you to lose ground in any event standings. What matters in the long run for skaters is how they rebound from misfortune.

I'm not gonna overly blame skaters, nor cite patterns. That shizz is overdone by fans. It is what it is in this sport. You have to be mentally tough, hungry, strategic, politically-backed and lucky, as well as talented. In some ways, Hub/Don were possibly used a bit to try and weaken the Shibs going forward. It didn't work so much because the Shibs ultimately prevailed and Bobrova/Soloviev were simply NOT that good a team no matter how pushed up they were. Once the Shibs were out of the picture, the Rusfed politickers had no more use for Hub/Don. The other part of this is that North American teams generally, and in the U.S., H/D, C/B, and the Shibs have in the recent past simply been excellent teams, always at the top in the wake of V/M and D/W, prior to P/C's sudden rise. It was a great run, with three U.S. ice dance teams routinely making the GPF. This year it has slipped to two for the first time in how many years?

We may have to get used to the Russians clogging the top of the ice dance heap with their teams, especially post 2022 and a likely slew of retirements (G/P, H/D, C/B), unless some strong contenders like the Danadians hold sway, and Mc/Carp, Green/Parsons, et al can make a strong bid to infiltrate the coming Russian blockade, which frankly has only just begun ... I'm keeping in mind how much everything can turn on a dime. And there are a slew of great U.S. teams still coming up in ice dance, so let the battling continue. And maybe U.S. fed can try to do a better job politically.

 

[PRlady]

Athletes like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic can play and dominate in their 120s and people generally are okay with that (okay, not everyone, people on tennis forums are a nasty bunch).

Lower profile sports really make it hard for athletes and fans to support and desire long term athletes.

i was thinking how patient Canada is with its athletes and the payoff is that Osmond and D/R became world champions and Weaver/Poje missed it by a fraction. No they won’t team medal in 2022 because there’s not a deep bench but I respect the warmth with which the older athletes are treated, even if they didn’t turn into gold medalists.

 

[aftershocks]

Lorraine and Quinn don't strike me as cutthroat enough to leave the school they've been at their entire career, so for their sake I hope WISA finds someone who can bring some life to their senior teams. They have the talent, they're just lacking the material.

Come on please! Green/Parsons have an excellent FD, and Mc/Carp had great material the past few seasons. This season they've had some bad luck with the injury, plus their material, while okay, is not as outstanding as last season. It seems like there are always naysayer critics (probably some instigating fans who favorite other teams) piling on U.S. skaters. Or maybe a mix of negative critics, along with worried, questioning fans. I say, just take a deep breath and understand the highs, the lows, and the lay of the land that is currently afoot in ice dance.

We don't really know what's going to happen in the long run, eh. We should try to enjoy each moment, but we are often too busy arguing over stuff to enjoy where we're at when a bounty of riches exists, and then a whole era passes by, and a new one forces it's way in. There's currently still a lot to enjoy, while trying to not get too upset over the ubiquitous annoying judging and f'ing politics.

 

[aftershocks]

i was thinking how patient Canada is with its athletes and the payoff is that Osmond and D/R became world champions and Weaver/Poje missed it by a fraction. No they won’t team medal in 2022 because there’s not a deep bench but I respect the warmth with which the older athletes are treated, even if they didn’t turn into gold medalists.

Canadian fans are known to love up their skaters, regardless of what's happening. It's always open season though on U.S. skaters, even from U.S. fans, sadly.

As well, Canadian fed has much more political clout and know-how than U.S. fed. Canadian fed understand they have to scramble to recover from all the veteran retirements, but they are well on their way aside from their ladies discipline, which has always been problematic for them. They have a strong legacy in pairs and they are working hard to build up the next generation. KMT/Marinaro are likely only place holders at the moment, and some very good place holders at that. However, I can't see KMT/Marinaro competing for Olympic podium, nor even the World podium, though they and their fed are making every effort. Sorry, that bit is for the pairs thread. There are competitive guys in men for Canada, but no one currently like Patrick Chan. I think they are hopeful for young Gogolev for 2026.

In ice dance for the Canadians, after G/P retire, there are the Danadians and Lajoie/Lagha. I'm not too familiar with anyone else coming up in Canada. The U.S. have a lot of next-gen contenders in ice dance, including C/P, M/C, H/B, G/P and in juniors another slew of teams, led by Nguyen/Kolesnik, whom do not need to be rushed necessarily. I guess they could come up to seniors or stay in juniors and try to win back-to-back. The world is their oyster.

If Sinitsina and Katsalapov remain 2nd, those lost Finnstep points will bear a lot of blame.

The lost Finnstep points will be perhaps the valid excuse. Zhulin and Rusfed politics will be the reason.


I apologize for thinking this was the general ice dance thread... For all U.S. fans, let's try to enjoy the ups and the downs. There are a bounty of riches in the U.S. ice dance field. We just need to support our skaters.

 

[skateboy]

Why? Because of all the backlash and dislike against them and the politics they'd be up against internationally? Or because you think it would take away from up-and-coming U.S. teams? Actually, I think the Shibs are very much missed on the current scene (of course Zhulin and Rusfed don't miss them ).

I absolutely love the Shibs. That said...

If they chose to come back, it's not really similar to V/M's comeback for Pyeongchang. V/M were established Olympic gold and silver medalists from the past two Olympics. It was a done deal that they would return as the Canadian #1 team and, at the very least, make the podium again at the Olympics, probably placing first or second... and they won.

The Shibs battled valiantly throughout their entire career to gain the respect they currently have. Their 2017 bronze at worlds was a squeaker, they were lucky to get it. They lost the national title to H/D in 2018 and were underneath them going into the FD at the Olys. H/D made mistakes, paving the way for the Shibs bronze (although I always saw the Shibs as the superior team).

The Shibs have always had to battle the "sister/brother" thing, which is such a shame. I would hate to see the Shibs come back, only to be in the #2 or (very possibly) #3 position at US Nats, and demoted in the World standings. (Nothing to do with their actual ability, of course.)

 

[aftershocks]

If they chose to come back, it's not really similar to V/M's comeback for Pyeongchang.

Of course it's not similar. I don't think anyone believes it's similar either. Thanks for expressing your thoughts about the Shibs otherwise, and explaining why you don't want to see them come back. I don't disagree with you.

Still, as fans realize, the Shibs never do anything half way. So they won't come back unless they strongly feel they have a good reason to do so and can achieve their goals. If they haven't decided yet, they may simply not be ready to share what they are thinking and planning. Plus, they will always constantly be asked the question until it becomes apparent or they share what their plans are...

 

[jiejie]

I thought Mc/Carp looked good, but maybe better eyes can say why they were scapegoated to last place at NHK. Too much depth, and someone had to be put in last place? Soucisse/Firus didn't like being there in the RD, so it was Mc/Carp's turn in the FD?

I didn't see any visible mistakes from Mc/Carp, but Car/Pon actually had a visible error in the FD (he failed to quickly catch her leg properly on the twirling carry lift, which slowed them down to almost slow motion). That's why they dropped in the standings.

With Mc/Carp ending up last, it may be partly a matter of depth I suppose, and politics re the judges not putting the newbie to senior Russian team at the bottom of the heap instead. Mc/Carp were seemingly seen as vulnerable with only one GP since they are coming back from an injury. Plus, the new status quo may be against North American teams from the next generation making forward progress over Russian teams.

C/P did have a glaring error. However, before the competition started, I took one look at the makeup of the Tech Panel and knew the North American teams were in trouble, regardless of how they skated.

 

[Colonel Green]

C/P did have a glaring error. However, before the competition started, I took one look at the makeup of the Tech Panel and knew the North American teams were in trouble, regardless of how they skated.

Levels were not, generally, their issue (except S/F, but they've been getting bad levels all season, sadly).

 

[clairecloutier]

The Shibs battled valiantly throughout their entire career to gain the respect they currently have. Their 2017 bronze at worlds was a squeaker, they were lucky to get it. They lost the national title to H/D in 2018 and were underneath them going into the FD at the Olys. H/D made mistakes, paving the way for the Shibs bronze (although I always saw the Shibs as the superior team).

The Shibs have always had to battle the "sister/brother" thing, which is such a shame. I would hate to see the Shibs come back, only to be in the #2 or (very possibly) #3 position at US Nats, and demoted in the World standings. (Nothing to do with their actual ability, of course.)

In the old days of ice dance, I would have been much more concerned about this, but now, not so much. Internationally, teams seem to be cycling in/out of favor quickly. S/K go from nothing to World silver in one season. C/B and W/P come back after time off and are right back in it. Meanwhile H/D go from World silver and bronze to .... who knows what will happen this season. ? the Shibs would have as good a chance as anyone, arguably.

 

[oleada]

C/P did have a glaring error. However, before the competition started, I took one look at the makeup of the Tech Panel and knew the North American teams were in trouble, regardless of how they skated.

I don’t think this was C/P’s issue here; if they hadn’t had the mistake in the lift they would’ve scored higher in the FD and overall than at SkAm. They had higher levels, PCS and overall score in the RD at NHK than at Skate America. Their FD levels were higher - the Circular Step Sequence was L3 vs L2 at SkAm - except for the messed up rotational lift that was a L1 and absolutely did them in. The PCS was nearly exactly the same, down to .01 in the FD.

These was a deep field, with the top 4 having medaled at previous GPs, and the best they could’ve probably hoped for was 5th if everyone skated well.

 

[Dobre]

Carreira & Ponomarenko are a young team gaining experience. They've had a number of great opportunities this season, and have had mistakes in the free at Nebelhorn, Skate America, and NHK. (Usually it's Anthony's twizzles that go first, but other things happen). It was the same the year they led the U.S. junior field and finished behind Skoptcova & Aleshin at the JGPF and Junior Worlds. Not out of character, but also not always the same mistake. Learning. They haven't been chased often. Usually they have done the chasing. When they get into the position where they are the ones that are being chased--that's not something they have a lot of experience facing and you see the nerves. It is an experience they can get. (I don't think it's one, though, that can be rushed).

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yep, and it also bears noting that last season Mc/Carp won a bronze at GP Finland, and a 4th place (heavily contesting for third) at Skate America. Apparently, they received little rep and no political capital from those achievements. We are in the sophomore season of this quad and all hell is breaking loose with the jockeying for position and the political maneuvering.

 

[barbarafan]

Exactly. The gorgeous Nicole Orford/ Asher Hill, were one of those senior Canadian teams who sadly saw the writing on the wall, and called it a career:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZzsD-FYbQQ

Still, I have no issue with V/M coming back. I understand why they did. It's the sport's problem that they felt the need to because they still had the burning desire to meaningfully compete and few to no options to do so in a professional capacity... V/M desired to keep growing and challenging themselves and they did, thus in some ways pushing boundaries that made P/C even better, eh. P/C inspired V/M to be better, and vice versa.

Several Ontario teams were persuaded to quit. In this case I think it was the wrong decision as they would have quickly overtaken G/P and ended up on the world team with V/M and W/P.

 

[nimi]

Several Ontario teams were persuaded to quit. In this case I think it was the wrong decision as they would have quickly overtaken G/P and ended up on the world team with V/M and W/P.

I get it, you hate Piper&Paul and will take any opportunity to shit talk them, but could you maybe do that over at The Dance Hall or in one of the Canada-centric threads and not here?

Back to topic, i.e. U.S. teams: Was Charlie White one of Nguyen/Kolesnik's choreographers this season? Apparently he's been "helping" them recently in Novi, I assume polishing their programs for JGPF but I don't really know much about their coaching/choreography arrangements. (Or is Charlie working with Igor's teams on a more or less regular basis nowadays?)

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[barbarafan]

I get it, you hate Piper&Paul and will take any opportunity to shit talk them, but could you maybe do that over at The Dance Hall or in one of the Canada-centric threads and not here?

did you watch the video and then look at Piper and Paul's vids from 2016? If you have not then zip it until you do.
Btw it is Carol L. I dislike not G/P. I am realistic about their skating but do not know them as people.

 

[Sylvia]

Was Charlie White one of Nguyen/Kolesnik's choreographers this season? Apparently he's been "helping" them recently in Novi, I assume polishing their programs for JGPF but I don't really know much about their coaching/choreography arrangements. (Or is Charlie working with Igor's teams on a more or less regular basis nowadays?)

I think Charlie consults with Shpilband's teams every now and then. More photos of him with Novi teams earlier this month:
Carreira/Ponomarenko: https://www.instagram.com/p/B4lG6KUJ2uK/
Ales/Tsarik: https://www.instagram.com/p/B4dm5rfHZsx/

 

[Lara111]

I think with the struggles that both C/P and M/C are going through i expect if N/K run the table on the JGP and win the JGPF and Junior i would expect them to turn Senior next season even being as young as they are. I think they have something special that the other younger teams don't have.
Avonley is a star.

I think at least three teams Shanaeva/Narizhny, Kazakova/Reviya and Khudaberdieva/Filatov can compete and beat N/K and JGPF. I am not sure if Ushakova/Nekrasov will compete at Worlds. N/K win, even though they are leaders at the moment is not so assured.

 

[Colonel Green]

I think at least three teams Shanaeva/Narizhny, Kazakova/Reviya and Khudaberdieva/Filatov can compete and beat N/K and JGPF. I am not sure if Ushakova/Nekrasov will compete at Worlds. N/K win, even though they are leaders at the moment is not so assured.

@Jammers didn't say it was assured, they said "if" that happens. And it's far from implausible.