U.S. Ladies [#26]: Bell, Boots, and Camel

[layman]

Alysa Liu's SP from the Broadmoor Open:

Alysa Liu, Broadmoor Open 2019 SP

www.youtube.com

 

[AxelAnnie]

Alysa Liu's SP from the Broadmoor Open:

Alysa Liu, Broadmoor Open 2019 SP

www.youtube.com

I love it that her dress matches the seats

 

[Willin]

Dress looks like Lisa McKinnon - IIRC she did the FS dress last year.

Her quad may be UR, but practicing it has certainly made her triples look nowhere near UR. Even the 3A looks better than last season.

Definitely needs to work on speed - that lean/lean should be getting her a lot more speed than she's getting. Hopefully they'll hook her up with Kim Novarro or another dance/skating skills coach. I know Oakland has a few coaches that can do skating skills and speed coaching, but idk how many privates they do.

 

[clairecloutier]

Alysa Liu's SP from the Broadmoor Open:

I like this program for Alysa. Very good choreography, well laid out to the music, nice accents. This could be a great program for her, if she can add more speed and interpretation.

 

[VGThuy]

I do expect the speed to come later as she gets older but whatever she can do to work on it sooner rather than later will help.

 

[Tavi]

Just a quick note on the US ladies who competed at the Peggy Fleming Trophy last night. This is a fairly new competition held in conjunction with Broadmoor Open, with an emphasis on artistry and a combined field of men and ladies. More than half the competitors were Team USA members, so the level of skating and readiness was quite high for a June club competition. And although the rules are different than IJS (among other things, quads are not allowed), at least three of the judges were ISU international judges. The three medalists were Jason Brown, Andrew Torgashev, and Karen Chen.

Karen looks back in form and she did really well. I generally liked her program, her jumps and skating looked pretty solid, and her spiral was gorgeous!

My favorite of the ladies was Ting. She is just a gorgeous skater - lovely flow and beautiful use of her body. For those who are curious, yes she was with Tom Z, yes she was jumping, and to me her jumps looked fine. I’m not quite sure why she placed so low.

Of the other Team USA ladies, Hanna Harrell had strong jumps; she has matured since last year, but still looks a bit junior-ish in this field. Amber skated first and actually looked quite good. Courtney was okay, but her jumps were a little wonky and this competition is probably not ideal to showcase her. There was no one at the boards with her (FYI, this was true for a lot of the skaters) so the mystery of who her coach is remains. I expected Mariah to shine and probably to medal here, but her jumps weren’t as solid as they could have been and her skating overall just didn’t have a lot of impact.

I want to give a special shout out to Sonja Hilmer, who placed fifth, just ahead of Mariah. She doesn’t have the jumps to compete internationally, but her program and skating were beautiful, creative, and compelling, and I’m glad the judges recognized and rewarded her.

 

[Sylvia]

Karen looks back in form and she did really well. I generally liked her program, her jumps and skating looked pretty solid, and her spiral was gorgeous!

Thanks! Did you recognize Karen's music? Was it "You Say" by Lauren Daigle (SP video fan cam link posted in the 2019 Broadmoor Open thread in Kiss & Cry; ETA that a subscription is needed to view K&C as of 6/30/19): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ial-challenge-6-29.105745/page-2#post-5602729

 

[Tavi]

Thanks! Did you recognize Karen's music? Was it "You Say" by Lauren Daigle (SP video fan cam link posted in the 2019 Broadmoor Open thread in Kiss & Cry): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ial-challenge-6-29.105745/page-2#post-5602729

I’m so sorry, but I didn’t recognize it. I don’t think it was this music, but I could be wrong. What I can definitely say is that her costume was different- she was wearing a black catsuit with a camisole type top and lots of rhinestones - she looked gorgeous. Apologies, but I wasn’t feeling well (nothing at all serious) and was a bit out of it by then.

ETA here is her PFT skate - seems to be same music:

Karen Chen, Peggy Fleming Trophy 2019

m.youtube.com

 

[Spun Silver]

@Tavi, Courtney didn't get any GP assignments (yet, at least) for the first time, and seems to be losing the support of USFS. I follow her on Instagram where she sometimes posts training vid but I can't recall seeing a mention of a coach recently. I wonder if she could be coaching herself.

 

[Tavi]

@Tavi, Courtney didn't get any GP assignments (yet, at least) for the first time, and seems to be losing the support of USFS. I follow her on Instagram where she sometimes posts training vid but I can't recall seeing a mention of a coach recently. I wonder if she could be coaching herself.

I’m not sure what’s up with Courtney, but she may be between coaches. She was working with Kori in Monument and I think after Kori moved to the Air Force Academy rink, Courtney worked with her there. But I think now Kori’s kids are done with school, she has relocated to Nashville. I am pretty sure Courtney had just moved to CS and loves it, so she may be torn about following Kori to Tennessee.

 

[Debbie S]

I’m so sorry, but I didn’t recognize it.

It's her SP, "You Say".

 

[Tavi]

It's her SP, "You Say".

Thanks, yes I just edited my last post to include a link to the PFT version.

 

[natsulian]

Thoughts on the recent news and information overload:

• Alysa Liu's Long Program - Liu chose a beautiful piece of music to skate to, but it seems to overwhelm her at times and the choreography showcases some of the negative aspects of her skating (i.e. speed). However, by adding more transitions to mask her shortcomings (or get help from a specialist), I believe that it will become just as memorable as her Long Program from the prior season. Liu seems to have progressed in her musicality, lines, and delivery as well as her jumps. Her triples look insanely easy and her 4Lz is getting to the point where it seems to be fully rotated. Also, although her 3A still has under-rotation problems, I think it is something that can be fixed in the coming months.
• Hanna Harrell's Long Program - A monster of a song that gorgeously accentuates Harrell's best features while providing some dramatic flair. Despite Harrell's less than stellar performance jump and spin-wise, I'm confident that as the season progresses, it will become more stable and could become her vehicle towards international success.
• Karen Chen's Short Program - Spectacular! Chen not only showcased how a world class figure skater skates, but truly brought excitement back into her career. The Short drips with gorgeous lines and musicality, but also holds a burning passion which just oozes through and I cannot wait to her Long.

Others who surprised me: Isabeau Levito, Sarah Jung, Amber Glenn, and Jessica Lin.

 

[natsulian]

Aerial Figure Skating Challenge:
1. Alysa Liu - Liu fell on her initial 4Lz quite terribly (fell body down on the ice, it was scary to watch... she got up like it was nothing), but used her re-try and landed a 4Lz and a 4Lz+2T
2. Sarah Jung - Landed 2 3A's
3. Noella Rose - Landed a downgraded 3A

Alysa's fall was so terrifying... and yet she got up like it was nothing.

 

[Sylvia]

Alysa Liu's Long Program - Liu chose a beautiful piece of music to skate to, but it seems to overwhelm her at times and the choreography showcases some of the negative aspects of her skating (i.e. speed). However, by adding more transitions to mask her shortcomings (or get help from a specialist), I believe that it will become just as memorable as her Long Program from the prior season. Liu seems to have progressed in her musicality, lines, and delivery as well as her jumps. Her triples look insanely easy and her 4Lz is getting to the point where it seems to be fully rotated. Also, although her 3A still has under-rotation problems, I think it is something that can be fixed in the coming months.

Re-posting from the Broadmoor thread in Kiss & Cry... Alysa's Senior FS to Dvorak's "New World Symphony" by Jennifer Thomas (same fan cam source as the SP video linked in post #691 above): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8M2tJRSueU
Jumps attempted/landed: 3A+3T, 4Lz+2T, 4Lz, 3A, 3Lz+1Eu+3S, 3Lo, 3F (her first 4Lz & 2nd 3A were called <; her sudden fall happened between her final 2 spins near the end - link to her tweeted FS protocol: https://twitter.com/zucchilles/status/1144756474587025409

 

[aftershocks]

So getting the good skating skills that will get her the speed may not be a priority.

It should be. And that's what the sport should prioritize and value as well.

 

[Willin]

@aftershocks Not that I disagree - I agree wholeheartedly that the sport and judges should prioritize skating skills. Unfortunately if the judging of the Russian ladies, Tursynbaeva, Boyang Jin, young Nathan, Vincent, Mirai Nagasu, etc. is anything to go off of, I think skating skills have fallen way to the back burner of what judges care about.

 

[Dobre]

Alysa has said that improving her skating skills is a significant goal.

 

[aftershocks]

I believe that it will become just as memorable as her Long Program from the prior season.

IMO, Alysa's previous fp is only memorable in the sense of her landing 3-axels and winning the 2019 ladies championship (though one 3-axel was URed and not called along with another jump).

I'm going to wait and see how Alysa grows and develops as a skater and remain cautious about jumping on the over-hype bandwagon. I feel the same about the pyrotechnics of the Russian assembly line ladies.

 

[natsulian]

What’s insane about Alysa is how she managed to land nearly SEVEN 4Lz’s in one single competition. She landed 2 during the qualifying round, 2 in the final, and went for 3 in the Aerial Challenge where she fell during her first attempt. Of those 4Lz’s, nearly 3 to 4 were rotated and half of them were in combination.

 

[olympic]

Despite any quibbles over SS or UR, Alysa is setting a standard for US ladies which is so refreshing. I expect other US ladies to up their game in response because they have no choice. Go Alysa.

ETA - A good example is Bradie training w/ Mishin and perhaps going back for more over the Summer

 

[Willin]

Alysa has said that improving her skating skills is a significant goal.

Which I'm sure is the case. My point is that it's no longer necessary to win. So instead of back in 6.0 or even early IJS where it was necessary to learn skating skills while learning the jumps (for figures and the artistic part of 6.0), it's now learn the jumps, win, and then learn the skating skills. Exactly as we've seen with some of the examples I gave: Boyang Jin and Vincent (now working on skating skills) and Nathan Chen being the best examples. Back in the day you had skaters like Surya Bonaly and Tonya Harding who had amazing and difficult jumps but wouldn't win because of poor skating skills. Now that's not a thing any more.

 

[Frau Muller]

Back in the day you had skaters like Surya Bonaly and Tonya Harding who had amazing and difficult jumps but wouldn't win because of poor skating skills...

Actually, Tonya had very good skating skills during 6.0-with-figures times. It was Surya who had the short choppy strokes, Zero musicality, etc.

 

[Dobre]

Tonya placed higher at Worlds in her day than Boyang ever has.

Nathan has never had weak skating skills. He has had some of the best at his age level for ages. And he broke through at the novice and junior level on the national and international scene because of this before he ever introduced a quadruple jump. He has grown by leaps & bounds as a performer since entering senior & continued to hone his basics, but they have been there since he was a kid.

I've never noticed that Alysa's basics are notably weak relative to her age-level competitors either. She has room to grow and improve; that's for sure. And she is an itty bitty little thing so her speed & power are likely to improve as she grows as long as she continues to develop her skills.

I mean, I wouldn't say that Alysa stands out to me because of her skating skills. She doesn't. She has--from the first time I saw her at Nationals in 2016--always stood out to me because of her performance ability. But she has never been noticeably slower or noticeably struggled at covering the ice more than her American peers when I have seen them compete live at the novice & junior level. Her PCS is higher than Ting's and was so before ever introducing a triple axel. Alysa doesn't jump as high as some of the other girls, but of course that's about jumps. As she is entering international fields, now, of course the bar for all aspects of skating will go up. I'd assume there will be ladies on the JGP with stronger basics, and it will be good for Alysa to compete against those ladies.

I realize that when you choose to skate up among the senior field at the National level, then you are going to get this kind of discussion. I even think it can be good for young athletes--challenge them to develop all aspects of their skating.

I definitely think that lack of basics has made it tough on Nam, though. And I think strong basics have helped Kostornaia remain relevant against the superior jump difficulty of Trusova & Scherbakova.

There's always going to be some form of a balance. I don't care how great your skating skills are, you aren't going to win anything with all doubles. And there has always been a strong compulsion for athletes without a super strong 2nd mark to make that technical push. Many, many technical breakthroughs have been made by athletes willing to take those risks because they could not place super high without them. (Ito's many-triple free skates. Shen & Zhou doing 2 triples. Kurt Browning doing the first quad. Inoue & Baldwin's throw triple axel. Boyang's lutz. Kovtun & Reynolds's multiple quads). And often these athletes don't win via these breakthrough elements. They break through to become part of the medal conversation. They introduce a new possibility. And then maybe they develop into more complete performers, or the scoring system adjusts to adequately reward the difficulty for what was previously unheard of, or someone else with stronger basics & performance masters the difficult element and then reaps the reward.

The balance changes significantly with different versions of the scoring system. That balance has shifted a great deal since the compulsory era. And shifted again since this past Olympics. (I personally am loving the fact that throwing jumps you really can't land no longer appears to be paying off). But there has always been some give & take, and I think there's still evidence that it exists. The signs do strongly indicate that the technical bar in the ladies field is undergoing a significant leap right now. Usually in the past we only had a couple athletes trying axels & quads. With Kihira, Trusova, Scherbakova, Tursynbaeva, Tuktamysheva, & Liu all actually landing them in competition--those are higher numbers.

 

[olympic]

Actually, Tonya had very good skating skills during 6.0-with-figures times. It was Surya who had the short choppy strokes, Zero musicality, etc.

I believe Tonya outpaced her peers, Kristi and Nancy in figures at Nationals when figures were part of the equation

 

[Debbie S]

Her PCS is higher than Ting's and was so before ever introducing a triple axel.

Actually, at the one comp where they both competed this season - Nats - in the FS, where both skated cleanly, Ting's PCS was higher than Alysa's, 3As and all. At 2018 Nats in Juniors, Alysa had slightly higher PCS (less than 1 point) than Ting, but Ting also skated early, in the first group, after not skating well in the SP.

PCS can vary, just like TES, depending on how a skater skates on a particular day, so I don't think you can really make a blanket statement on whose PCS "is higher" than another's, especially when you are talking about skaters who are closely ranked.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Miyahara is about as itsy bitsy as they come in Seniors, and her effortless speed and beautiful edges and ride on the blade is exemplary. So it's possibly, even if Liu stays tiny.

 

[skipaway]

wrong thread

 

[Dobre]

PCS can vary, just like TES, depending on how a skater skates on a particular day, so I don't think you can really make a blanket statement on whose PCS "is higher" than another's, especially when you are talking about skaters who are closely ranked.

Not a blanket statement. You are correct about that. But certainly the fact that both Ting & Alysa have traded PCS results is good evidence that Alysa's basics are "not significantly weaker" than the rest of her peers in the national field. Ting being at the top of the U.S. ladies' junior field at the international level for the past two seasons. Alysa's second mark at home has, rather, been right up there at the top with Ting's. And Ting is three years older. Both girls are quite promising, I think.

Miyahara is about as itsy bitsy as they come in Seniors, and her effortless speed and beautiful edges and ride on the blade is exemplary. So it's possibly, even if Liu stays tiny.

Also Sasha Cohen's skating skills improved significantly as she continued to compete. To the point at which her second mark rivaled the rest of the world. (Which I mention not as a point of comparison but an example showing that just because a young athlete arrives on the scene and his or her basics don't match up to the top of the senior field at an early stage of their career does not mean they aren't working on those skills and at a good place for their personal development).

 

[VGThuy]

Under 6.0, Surya Bonaly win multiple Euro titles and World medals. Harding won Nationals and a world silver medal on top of other international wins/medals. One could argue some of the skaters used as examples of having bad SS these days would be on par with some champions from 6.0.