U.S. Ladies [#23]: Triple Axels? What a Novice Idea!

[gkelly]

they believed that young skaters could then focus more on speed than on PCS.

Well, speed is part of PCS. It's part of Skating Skills, which is one of the program components.

More like, they could focus more on speed (or Skating Skills in general) than on artistry, or than on the other components.

 

[concorde]

Well, speed is part of PCS. It's part of Skating Skills, which is one of the program components.

More like, they could focus more on speed (or Skating Skills in general) than on artistry, or than on the other components.

In what I heard, their focus was speed. Other skating skills were not mentioned.

 

[Marco]

@concorde Tom Z has a whole training regiment designed to increase speed.

Oooh, bad example.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I found most U.S. ladies for some reason seem to have fallen behind other top countries when it came to speed and real edge quality for the past ten years or so. It seems to be getting better though.

I don't know for sure, but have the impression at least Russian juniors/kids still do figure 8's. There are quite few discussion about them on russian skater-mom/skaters' chats.

https://www.tulup.ru/articles/185/vosmerki_so_skobkami.html

 

[Willin]

@Marco Are you being sarcastic? He did help Mirai get her speed way back up and Max Aaron was incredibly fast on the ice when I saw him. In fact, most of his skaters don't seem to be lacking in the speed department. They do slow down quite a bit going into jumps, but that seems common among faster skaters.

@Tinami Amori A figure-8 was added to the USFS moves in the field test in fall 2010, as were other things designed to improve skating skills and speed through step sequences.

 

[Dobre]

Linichuk & Karponosov were also very good at helping their teams develop speed. Tanith & Ben were notably faster after they went to L&K. It's not a fast process. It's a time consuming one; but it can happen. Hubbell & Donohue have gotten notably faster since moving to Dubreil & Lauzon as well.

 

[SmallFairy]

It's not impossible to fix speed, as several posters have mentioned. What's maybe hard is when your body is used to going into jumps and other elements at a certain speed and when you increase you speed in between, your timing into take-offs will also be different and you must adjust? That could maybe affect your stability on the jumps?

 

[Marco]

@Marco Are you being sarcastic? He did help Mirai get her speed way back up and Max Aaron was incredibly fast on the ice when I saw him. In fact, most of his skaters don't seem to be lacking in the speed department. They do slow down quite a bit going into jumps, but that seems common among faster skaters.

Many of his famous skaters, esp those who stayed with him for a long time, are known for their basics or speed being a burden e.g. Ryan Bradley, Rachael Flatt. I don't think he got Mirai Nagasu's speed back up at all. In fact, he got his skaters to sacrifice other aspects of their skating for some speed (posture, choreography, expression etc) and to me that is quite different to working on someone'e speed while also maintaining their other qualities unchanged or even improved. Max is a prime example.

 

[haribobo]

Max was a hockey player so that's probably more responsible for his speed than any other factors...

 

[concorde]

I always think of figure skaters as being faster than hockey players. Hockey player tend to have alot of short stops and gos (they do not get enough distance to really acheive lots of speed) whereas figure skater have long "runs" into jumps. Years ago I remember a comment about Nancy Kerrigan from her brother's friends who were hockey players - wow she is fast!

Speed does change the timing of jumps.

With doubles, you have some wiggle room to correct a jump so changes in speed is recoverable. With triples, the wiggle room is basically gone so a skater needs to be consistent in speed when entering into a jump. With quads, precision must be key.

I think speed is a key factor that causes skaters to fall during competitions. Skaters get nervous and that nervousness alters their speed. Just a bit faster or slower than usual and oops, there goes the jump.

 

[honey]

It's not impossible to fix speed, as several posters have mentioned. What's maybe hard is when your body is used to going into jumps and other elements at a certain speed and when you increase you speed in between, your timing into take-offs will also be different and you must adjust? That could maybe affect your stability on the jumps?

This is by far the biggest issue with fixing speed, IMO. I think just about anyone can be taught better basic skating skills and could learn to skate with power and speed around the ice. What is much more difficult is incorporating that speed into the jumps/elements.

First, the skater needs to learn to do the jumps at the faster speed. When you skate faster, there is more room for error. The timing needs to be all the more precise. Secondly, it takes time to be comfortable enough with the new speed to show it in a competition. So often under stress, we revert back to old habits. If skating into your triple lutz at full speed has only been introduced in the last 6 months, chances are in a competition, your instinct will be to skate slowly into it as you used to.

 

[Sylvia]

"Introducing an elite team of youth athletes in Under Armour’s new collection of kids’ jackets": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VsA6QOBftc

JGP and U.S. Junior level skater Audrey Shin, age 14, is the featured figure skater: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID6kD_zCv5Y

 

[VGThuy]

I think regarding Mirai, Tom Z. probably did the best any coach can do and honestly, it was pretty great. Mirai's skating was never going to look like the way it was back in 2010 when she was 16 so both of them dealt with that reality and instead embraced the skater Mirai was at 24 and helped her be her best self. Both of them deserve credit for her turnaround. Maybe another coach would have Mirai be more disciplined about things like posture and keeping up her carriage and even maintain speed, but Tom Z. seems like he was the coach Mirai needed mentally and emotionally.

 

[aftershocks]

The comments on speed and changes in speed affecting technique going into jumps is very instructive. There's obviously such a huge amount going on for figure skaters in competition. What they do is amazing and difficult at every level. And they are expected to make it all look so easy. But I think it's important for all these aspects of the sport to be discussed more and explained better to casual and hardcore fans.

 

[mag]

The comments on speed and changes in speed affecting technique going into jumps is very instructive. There's obviously such a huge amount going on for figure skaters in competition. What they do is amazing and difficult at every level. And they are expected to make it all look so easy. But I think it's important for all these aspects of the sport to be discussed more and explained better to casual and hardcore fans.

ITA and also it is important to understand how the eye measures speed. Small slim skaters tend to look faster than taller more muscular skaters, but that does not mean they are any faster, in fact, they are often not. The same goes with spins. Watch Duhamel and Radford in side by side camel spins. Watch them together and you realize they are spinning at the same speed, watch them separately and Duhamel’s spin looks faster. That is because her foot is tracing the circumference of a smaller circle. Duhamel’s extended foot is actually travelling at a slower rate than Radford’s.

I think it would be great if there could be a computer program that measured the speed into each jump and rotational speed in spins and displayed that speed on the judges’ computers. Entry at over a given speed could be an automatic bullet for +GOE, and entry at less than a given speed could be an automatic -GOE.

 

[Sylvia]

@mag, some good points, thanks - the multi-faceted topic of "speed" in figure skating would make a good technical thread in GSD if someone who like to start one?

 

[aftershocks]

ITA and also it is important to understand how the eye measures speed. Small slim skaters tend to look faster than taller more muscular skaters, but that does not mean they are any faster, in fact, they are often not. The same goes with spins. Watch Duhamel and Radford in side by side camel spins. Watch them together and you realize they are spinning at the same speed, watch them separately and Duhamel’s spin looks faster. That is because her foot is tracing the circumference of a smaller circle. Duhamel’s extended foot is actually travelling at a slower rate than Radford’s.

I think it would be great if there could be a computer program that measured the speed into each jump and rotational speed in spins and displayed that speed on the judges’ computers. Entry at over a given speed could be an automatic bullet for +GOE, and entry at less than a given speed could be an automatic -GOE.

Yep, a separate thread would be great. I think technology should definitely be explored and utilized to benefit updating and growing the sport.

 

[gkelly]

Maybe someday absolute measures of speed, ice coverage, jump size in the air, etc., can be measured and calculated directly into the final score.

But also taking into account the size, sex, age/competition level of the skater and what they're actually doing when each measurement is recorded would require more nuanced decisions about what constitutes "good" speed for a that particular move by a tiny novice lady vs. by a tall senior man of twice her age and weight, for example. I think we'll still need to rely on human judgment for some of those decisions.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yes, computer technology has its uses and its drawbacks. I don't think there's any way for example, for computers to accurately judge artistry. Even many human judges are inept at that particularly since political bias too ofen enters into the subjective aspects of scoring. I still believe that trained experts with choreographic, movement and performance backgrounds should be recruited to assist in judging PCS. But the ISU will likely never go in that direction because they are all about maintaining control over scoring and judging outcomes.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Someone on a russian chat posted Ashley Wagner's IG from yesterday where she supposedly talks about her rather setrious state of depression. I can't open the link (not registered), so here it is ('and i don't know if it a valid link).
https://www.instagram.com/stories/ashwagner2010/?hl=ru
There is also an article in Russian dated today.
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1067765654.html
Bronze Medalist in the Team Event 2014, Ashley Wagner, is fighting with depression.
Then there is a translation of her comments, how after coming in 4th at the Nationals, she could not get out of bed, felt worthless and experienced a lot of doubt in herself, she asked her friends and family for advise, and they directed her to seek professional help.

Anyone heard about it, or is it fake news?

 

[Willin]

@Tinami Amori I wouldn't doubt it based on her behavior after Nationals, but I didn't hear anything about it. Unfortunately the post's on her instagram story, so someone with an instagram would need to confirm what she said.

It's good that she's speaking about it. It's good in general that a lot of athletes are talking about depression in all sports. Especially in something like skating where the judging can be subjective and one mistake can make or break your life goal/dream I think it's an important topic.

 

[Wyliefan]

I watched the video, and that account is correct. She says that she's not all the way better yet, but thanks to professional help, she's in a very different place now and has the tools she needs to keep getting better.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I watched the video, and that account is correct. She says that she's not all the way better yet, but thanks to professional help, she's in a very different place now and has the tools she needs to keep getting better.

Thank you for checking. While different people react differently to life's situations, this only convinces me that Full Time Athletic activities should not be the main or the only activity and goal in the life of a young person. The next best choice is Education.

Too many young people dedicate their whole life to sports, and when faced with a major obstacle or interruption, go into depression which affects their functions and make them feel hopeless.. Lipnitskaya, Radionova, Stolbova, Gracie, now Ashley, and if we go back to the "pre internet days" I am sure it was the same case with Bowman, Bobek, etc..

That was not the case with Debbie Thomas, Nathan Chen, Sarah Hughes, Rachael Flatt, Maria Sotskova and many others, who allocated to sports only a segment of their lives, parallel with education.

 

[aftershocks]

Ashley Wagner: "Friendships have to grow and adjust..."
https://www.instagram.com/p/BoZJkWbnh01/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010

Where exactly is Ash talking about being in a 'serious state of depression'? I don't see that. ETA:Okay I posted before seeing that she discussed her serious depression in an Instagram story, and that she's receiving professional help. Judging from her Instagram pics, Ash is making her way through. As usual, she's a role model for dealing with hard knocks.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm3g-wTHpIQ/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010
https://www.instagram.com/p/BncNJjtn6fO/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010
https://www.instagram.com/p/BmqtWBXHVRz/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010

In checking I do not see Ash discussing anything about serious depression, at least not on her regular Instagram.
The below so far are the closest I've found to any up and down mood swing comments, but she's handling it beautifully at least from what she's posting on IG. And it's all inspirational:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BmEI571HGx6/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bks1xnZAh2m/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010
https://www.instagram.com/p/BkJUSlnAGTh/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi2PhWqH6lZ/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010

Ash with her boyfriend:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BjH9t49AoFN/?hl=ru&taken-by=ashwagner2010

I will take the rest of the Instagram posts that I find so charming from Ashley to her fan thread...

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Not a neuroscientist by any stretch of the imagination, but worth considering: Every skater has a different cognitive threshold for speed. Sometimes our brains are more sensitive to it, others less so, and it can impact muscle control, etc.

I can only speak for myself, but I remember when I was young I worked a lot with my coaches on getting my body to understand what it felt like to be "fast" versus too fast and no control, or too slow—it wasn't so much about technique, just developing/strengthening the body's awareness to it. Young skaters often have the disadvantage of puberty, which can throw their speed comfort levels out of wack.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Cross referencing from the Ashley Wagner Cheer Thread...

Here is an NBC Sports article on Ashley Wagner...

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2018/10/11/ashley-wagner-depression-figure-skating/

Ashley Wagner details ‘severe depression’ after nationals

Ashley Wagner went into “a very severe depression” and received professional help after finishing fourth at January’s U.S. Figure Skating Championships and missing the PyeongChang Olympic team.

“I could barely get out of bed. I could barely function,” Wagner said on her Instagram Story on World Mental Health Day on Wednesday.

 

[aftershocks]

Thanks again @ANL. Per Ashley: "... long story short, never discredit how you’re feeling and the fact that something can be done about that and steps need to be taken for you to get better. I am in a completely different place now than I was then because I had a professional help me."

Ain't these three fairly amazing!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BnxJRYqnUHJ/?hl=en&taken-by=ashwagner2010

Two of them in their not so long ago youth at U.S. senior Nationals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRv4bAWMxhI Ash 2008 So strong and confident
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3CIoTn4y6U Mirai 2008 Such blazing talent

What if Mirai had been paired with the best coach back then to match her personality and chart her through rough waters? Who knows though. Athletes go through a necessary growth and learning process that's unpredictable.

 

[Coco]

not being able to get out of bed seems unfortunately like a pretty normal response to what she went through. Not just missing the Olympics but then her cat dying as well

 

[aftershocks]

but then her cat dying as well

Oh no. I hadn't heard about that. I'm so sorry for Ashley's loss. I guess that's one reason why she apparently has a new little kitty-poo to shower with love.

ITA with your observations. Kinda crushing and depressing experiences overall, added to the breakup awhile back from her former boyfriend. I love hearing how Ashley went through the fire of her difficult emotional traumas and is in the process of making her way to the other side, wiser, whole, healing.

 

[Rainbow]

That was not the case with Debbie Thomas, Nathan Chen, Sarah Hughes, Rachael Flatt, Maria Sotskova and many others, who allocated to sports only a segment of their lives, parallel with education.

Well, Debbie Thomas has a mental illness and struggled a lot with professional life. There were several media pieces on Rachael Flatt, how difficult she found it to move on from her athletic life and how she as well struggled at least with dejectedness.